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Old 03-26-2020, 04:13 AM
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Default CPAP machines as ventilators



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I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:16 AM
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It's not a complete replacement, but it can be good enough for some patients who aren't completely dependent on the vent to free up a vent for another patient who really needs it.
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Old 03-26-2020, 02:09 PM
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`

I won't use mine if I have a head cold anymore. I've done it twice & both times got pneumonia & other crud in my lungs. The 1st time I didn't really put it together, but after the 2nd time I realized that the machine was pushing the crud in my sinuses down into my lungs. I've had a few head colds since & I just slept in the recliner at 45 degree or higher incline. I don't get as good of sleep, but I also don't get pneumonia. If you don't have any sinus congestion, then it may help, but if you do have a stuffed up head, I don't recommend it.

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Old 03-27-2020, 12:09 PM
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`

I won't use mine if I have a head cold anymore. I've done it twice & both times got pneumonia & other crud in my lungs. The 1st time I didn't really put it together, but after the 2nd time I realized that the machine was pushing the crud in my sinuses down into my lungs. I've had a few head colds since & I just slept in the recliner at 45 degree or higher incline. I don't get as good of sleep, but I also don't get pneumonia. If you don't have any sinus congestion, then it may help, but if you do have a stuffed up head, I don't recommend it.

.
Key is keeping the unit CLEAN. I use one of the ozone generator devices daily. I won't say the brand, but my primary care doc recommended it and Tricare paid for it. Safety tip, remove the elastic headgear from the mask before placing it in the unit, otherwise the ozone will disintegrate the elastic.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:24 PM
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Key is keeping the unit CLEAN. I use one of the ozone generator devices daily. I won't say the brand, but my primary care doc recommended it and Tricare paid for it. Safety tip, remove the elastic headgear from the mask before placing it in the unit, otherwise the ozone will disintegrate the elastic.
This is excellent advice!!

I got sloppy with my CPAP a couple of years ago and got Legionella. I nearly died. The only airborne moisture I could tell the CDC was my CPAP. They said it probably wasn't the cause, but I use a dental device for apnea now. I'm not taking any chances.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
Substitute sure isnít the right word, but they would work in a niche area, maybe mostly if you donít have access to oxygen. A ventilator is capable of supplying 1) supplying oxygen 2) at pressure, and 3) mechanically breathing for you. CPAP only does 1 of these, at a lower pressure.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:30 PM
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We will run out of hospital staff before we run out of ventila.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
If you have an 02 set-up, with a little DIY, you can adapt one to fit into a CPAP.
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Old 03-28-2020, 03:51 PM
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I have a Respironics Virtuosoģ LX N.AM Smart CPAP System Model number R622093L.

It has what appears to be an RS232 port on it (DB9 connector). Is there a terminal program or any way or need to go into that port? This is the model without a smart card, yet there is a memory % shown.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:55 PM
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Not a substitute but may offer assistance above breathing unassisted room air.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
there are cases that will need a little more help breathing but dont need a full on ventilator. A CPAP would definitely help and can be used to free up ventilators for severe cases.
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Old 03-29-2020, 11:21 PM
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My CPAP nasal mask does have two small plugged ports that an O2 tube can be connected into.

But, a big problem with CPAPs is that the exhaust air is pumped out into the open without any HEPA filtering of your viral refuse. This creates an immediate contagious breathing hazard for anyone else in the house whether they wear a mask or not.
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Old 04-03-2020, 09:47 PM
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https://khn.org/news/covid19-ventila...d-coronavirus/

Cpap spread virus at nursing home.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:09 PM
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from your link "U.S. pandemic planning envisioned the possibility of using CPAP machines for milder cases of COVID-19 when ventilators are in short supply. But evidence suggests that the machines, commonly used by people with sleep apnea, can aerosolize and possibly spread the virus."

Here's hint CDC - the chicom flu is aerosolized and that's how it SPREADS. Duct tape, 2" flex hose to CPAP mask and to a bucket of water.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:20 PM
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I "they" were looking at using BIPAP machines.

From cpaphealthissues.com


There is concern about CPAP's
Why CPAP Machine isn't a Good Ventilator Alternative

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The American Society of Anesthesiologists issued guidance on Feb. 23 discouraging CPAP use in COVID-19 patients ó advice largely informed by experience with the SARS epidemic in 2003. Studies dating to 2003 suggest that such devices can pump viruses into the air, potentially increasing the spread of a contagious disease.
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:32 PM
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The point being is while it may help you it can infect others that are living with you.

If you live alone like I do then I plan to use it if I catch the disease and there is a ventilator shortage.

For those who dislike it pushing crud from your nose down your through when you have nasal drainage, then consider removing the water tank. It will help to dry your sinuses out.

For those with basic congestion then consider a drop of spearmint oil in your water tank. Be minimalist with this trick. Just one drop.

As for additional O2, every nasal mask I've seen in decades has a tubing port.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
Could it be used?

in theory yes, but you'd have to somehow attach a p100/hepa filter on the air input to be effective
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Old 04-04-2020, 03:08 AM
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I will certainly use my CPAP if I get sick*. I live alone, so there's nobody to spread it to, and secondly I have to use it or I never get any decent sleep.

If one could negative-pressure the sickroom, that ought to ease the aerosol issue. Come summer I do that anyway, at night, in lieu of air conditioning.

* Plan A is to not catch it. I think I can manage that. In ten years of being here I have never had even a cold. Avoiding sick people is the key.
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
from your link "U.S. pandemic planning envisioned the possibility of using CPAP machines for milder cases of COVID-19 when ventilators are in short supply. But evidence suggests that the machines, commonly used by people with sleep apnea, can aerosolize and possibly spread the virus."

Here's hint CDC - the chicom flu is aerosolized and that's how it SPREADS. Duct tape, 2" flex hose to CPAP mask and to a bucket of water.
Problem is a CPAP maxes out at 10Ē of water, so a higher water column than this is going to add lbackpressure to the lungs. And 10Ē isnít going to get you good filtering , even with a huge diffuser ( which would also increase back pressure.

Would a P100/n-95 filter be an option? Yes, but the NIOSH certification measures performance at 35mm (1.5Ē), which is below typical CPAP pressures.

The hazard of CPAPs in a airborne. Pandemic was recognized over a decade ago. Weíve had a waver in AL to reduce the EMS standard of care in such cases. Itís not so much for the EMTs protection, but a CPAP could contaminate the entire compartment, including the insides of cabinets, itís not impossible the unit would be out of service for hours, and many of the medical supplies would have to be trashed.
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:32 PM
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Problem is a CPAP maxes out at 10” of water, so a higher water column than this is going to add lbackpressure to the lungs. And 10” isn’t going to get you good filtering , even with a huge diffuser ( which would also increase back pressure.

Would a P100/n-95 filter be an option? Yes, but the NIOSH certification measures performance at 35mm (1.5”), which is below typical CPAP pressures.

The hazard of CPAPs in a airborne. Pandemic was recognized over a decade ago. We’ve had a waver in AL to reduce the EMS standard of care in such cases. It’s not so much for the EMTs protection, but a CPAP could contaminate the entire compartment, including the insides of cabinets, it’s not impossible the unit would be out of service for hours, and many of the medical supplies would have to be trashed.

The solution would be to rig up (duct tape and cardboard Apollo 13 style) an exhaust fan/filter. One way would be a small room sized HEPA filter unit with the inlet attached to one end of a flexible exhaust tubing and the other end fitted at the mask on its outlet. There does not need to be great suction, simply ample airflow to the HEPA filter. If the filter could be safely placed outside a window, all the better. You are looking for negative air pressure. At the end, the HEPA filter etc. needs to be disposed as bio waste.
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