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Old 12-25-2016, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
Excellent point. I would want you as my neighbor because you won't mind if i store all my toxic waste products and animal offal on my property line next to yours. And my pig farm/ slaughter house shouldn't bother you either. And of course I need to play my music very loud because I like to hear it wherever I am on my property.

We will get along just fine.
Your freedoms end where mine begin, loud music is one thing, but actual physical damage to someone else is where your freedom ends, this is more about those who complain about "eyesores" i.e im a crybaby i dont like what your stuff looks like, and real dangers, but again lawsuits usually take care of that ...so cities actually shouldn't need to "protect " owners from eyesores
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Old 12-25-2016, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wldwsel View Post
Buy in the country and write your own covenants.

We have grass, no dead cars, occasionally have a dog dig up the yard in search of a mole, no no one says a word. It's heaven!!!

WW

Shoot straight - stay safe
Dang straight! If you can't fire off some shots of the back porch then it's not worth living in an area.
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Old 12-25-2016, 08:08 PM
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Often, when a City posts such an ordinance, what is being sought is a permeable substrate where the water will perk back into the ground, rather than run off. I agree with the ADA issue. The other major reason is for beauty. Conformity? Not so. The city is forcing a resident with a disability to accept an un acceptable ordinance. I predict they win in federal court--and hope the city is held liable for all of their costs plus!
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Old 12-25-2016, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
Yup, no rules. Freedom means I can do whatever I want cause its my land. I want to rent out part of my property as a dump. Of course, I will put it as far from my house as I can, which is on the border with my neighbor.

Individual rights always trump the group.

If you don't like it, tough. Move.
No rules? At all? So there's nothing, whatsoever, that you think it should be illegal for your neighbor to do on his land?
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Old 12-25-2016, 09:31 PM
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IMHO,

**** HOAs! Hopefully, Donny will pass a law making them illegal
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Old 12-26-2016, 07:22 AM
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No rules? At all? So there's nothing, whatsoever, that you think it should be illegal for your neighbor to do on his land?

Its his land so why not? Its called freedom.
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Old 12-26-2016, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
Its his land so why not? Its called freedom.
That's not freedom man, that's survival of the biggest *******. You're telling me that you think it should be perfectly legal for your neighbor to intentionally start a fire on his property upwind of yours that then crosses the line and burns your house down? What if it kills your wife and/or family? Tough for you, just move, right? Should he be able to legally set up a target on his property and shoot though it into your house? It's on his property, right? Tough, just move. You're ok with him dumping fuel oil uphill of your well and ruining it and poisoning you and your family? Tough, just move, right? Are you serious? Have you really thought this through?
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Old 12-26-2016, 10:05 AM
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Good example of a dated ordinance. I would never live in a place like that. Read all the documents.

Water is in short supply in the West, so some towns pay people to remove their lawns.
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Old 12-26-2016, 10:14 AM
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This is a city ordinance don't fight City Hall.
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Old 12-26-2016, 10:17 AM
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Move to a different city, or start a movement to change it.
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Old 12-26-2016, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SBK View Post
That's not freedom man, that's survival of the biggest *******. You're telling me that you think it should be perfectly legal for your neighbor to intentionally start a fire on his property upwind of yours that then crosses the line and burns your house down? What if it kills your wife and/or family? Tough for you, just move, right? Should he be able to legally set up a target on his property and shoot though it into your house? It's on his property, right? Tough, just move. You're ok with him dumping fuel oil uphill of your well and ruining it and poisoning you and your family? Tough, just move, right? Are you serious? Have you really thought this through?

Okay, where do you propose the rules start? who makes them? who enforces them? what if we don't agree?
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Old 12-26-2016, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
Okay, where do you propose the rules start? who makes them? who enforces them? what if we don't agree?
I'll probably attempt to answer that question, at least to a degree after you answer mine. I asked you if you think it should be legal for your neighbor to burn down your house, kill your family, shoot your house and poison your water as long as he stays on his property while he does it? Are you really ok with that?
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SBK View Post
I'll probably attempt to answer that question, at least to a degree after you answer mine. I asked you if you think it should be legal for your neighbor to burn down your house, kill your family, shoot your house and poison your water as long as he stays on his property while he does it? Are you really ok with that?
Kind of a silly question. The basis for Constitutional Law is that you are free to do as you will as long as you do not infringe upon the life, liberty, or property of another living human soul.
You should be free to do as you will on your own property as long as your actions do not infringe/harm another human being's life, their liberty (freedoms), or property. Your property being a "eyesore" is not a infringement upon anyone's rights as no one has a protected Constitutional right to be free from eyesores.
You technically have the right to store all the toxic material you want on your property... as long as no other human being is injured by your actions. However, once your actions produce a living human soul as the injured party, then your right ends, and you have committed a actual "real" crime under Constitutional Law.

All "laws" such as city ordinances are actually corporate statute and exist only in the realm of Statutory Jurisdiction, which is just another name for Contract Law. For Statutory Jurisdiction to apply to you, you must in some fashion agree to a offer to contract, which will be presented to you in varies ways... many of which you will not recognize as offers to contract. But that is another complicated topic.

The bottom line is that people are talking about two different jurisdictions of "law" here. Those that think they are free to do as they wish with their property are attempting to apply Constitutional Law. (Which already has remedies for any real crime that can be committed). Those that think city ordinances or HOA rules should apply are applying corporate stature under Statutory Jurisdiction, which is contract law. The thing to remember is that by their very natures Constitutional Law (where you have protected rights) and Statutory Jurisdiction (where you have no protected rights, only the terms of a contract) can never interact. You either have your rights (freedoms) or you have a contract. You cannot have both at the same time, as you much give up your rights to get the contract.
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Old 12-27-2016, 07:59 AM
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Kind of a silly question. The basis for Constitutional Law is that you are free to do as you will as long as you do not infringe upon the life, liberty, or property of another living human soul.
You should be free to do as you will on your own property as long as your actions do not infringe/harm another human being's life, their liberty (freedoms), or property. Your property being a "eyesore" is not a infringement upon anyone's rights as no one has a protected Constitutional right to be free from eyesores.
Of course it's a silly question. It's a downright ridiculous question with an obvious answer. It was in response to some extremely silly statements, like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
Yup, no rules. Freedom means I can do whatever I want cause its my land. I want to rent out part of my property as a dump. Of course, I will put it as far from my house as I can, which is on the border with my neighbor.

Individual rights always trump the group.

If you don't like it, tough. Move.
and this
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Originally Posted by AlgoRhythms View Post
i will be careful and start a new pile next to the old one first. its my right.


And your water is your problem. Not mine.
He said "no rules" and then literally stated that he thought he should have the right to have a dump on his property that runs off and ruins his neighbors well and that that was "tough" and his neighbor should "just move". That's ridiculous and is in no way what freedom actually is. Like I said before, that's just survival of the biggest *******. I completely agree with you. Thomas Jefferson said, "The legitimate powers of government extend to only such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are twenty gods, or no God." It's obviously quite possible to do something injurious to others without leaving your own property, which means, IMO, that it should not be legal for people to "do whatever they want", even on their own property, as Algorythyms seems to think. We're still limited, or should be, by the equal rights of others. I should not have the right to dictate to my neighbor what color his house should be, or if he has grass instead of landscaping like in the OP. I should, however, have the right for my neighbor not to shoot at my house from his property, or start a fire on his property and burn my house down, or poison my well from his property. There's a balance here.
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Old 12-27-2016, 08:33 AM
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Okay, where do you propose the rules start? who makes them? who enforces them? what if we don't agree?
It's simple. The rules start when your toxic waste leeches onto my property or contaminates my well or fumes coming onto my property are causing bodily harm. That is you destroying my property or harming me or my family or animals. When your loud music interferes with my enjoyment and comfort on my property. Does that mean we have a problem if you have a private party in your backyard? No, I'm a fair and reasonable person. But, if you take it to the point that your loud music is a habit, disrupting my life, harassing me or taking away my enjoyment of my property, then I have a problem with your loud music. Just be and act civilized.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Propofol View Post
IMHO,

**** HOAs! Hopefully, Donny will pass a law making them illegal
ROFLMAO HOA fees on his buildings are probably 20% of his revenue.
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Old 12-27-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SBK View Post
That's not freedom man, that's survival of the biggest *******. You're telling me that you think it should be perfectly legal for your neighbor to intentionally start a fire on his property upwind of yours that then crosses the line and burns your house down? What if it kills your wife and/or family? Tough for you, just move, right? Should he be able to legally set up a target on his property and shoot though it into your house? It's on his property, right? Tough, just move. You're ok with him dumping fuel oil uphill of your well and ruining it and poisoning you and your family? Tough, just move, right? Are you serious? Have you really thought this through?
Gotta love it when the Authoritarians go to the far extremes to prove that they need governmental control to keep them safe from themselves.

Shoot, with that logic, you shouldn't be allowed to do anything without permission, I mean it might hurt someone else!
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Old 12-27-2016, 02:41 PM
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Too bad they weren't drug dealers. Obama would have pardoned them already.
Maybe, they could start before sentencing.
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Juts89mj View Post
Your freedoms end where mine begin, loud music is one thing, but actual physical damage to someone else is where your freedom ends, this is more about those who complain about "eyesores" i.e im a crybaby i dont like what your stuff looks like, and real dangers, but again lawsuits usually take care of that ...so cities actually shouldn't need to "protect " owners from eyesores
But muh property value! You're infringin' on muh freedom to sell muh house or develop property for more money than I paid!

Cities are a business.

They don't want their community value diminished by some hillbilly with IROC Zs on cinder blocks.

Personally I dont care, but when your upper crusters and property investors start complaining about their property values (also the cities property tax revenue) they will do something.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:08 PM
SBK SBK is offline
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Gotta love it when the Authoritarians go to the far extremes to prove that they need governmental control to keep them safe from themselves.

Shoot, with that logic, you shouldn't be allowed to do anything without permission, I mean it might hurt someone else!
The extremes is exactly what we're talking about. There's nothing "authoritarian" about believing that people should not have the right to poison each others water. Algorythyms literally said that he believes he should have the right to do that. I mentioned extreme examples because he made an extreme statement. "No rules" is what he said. I have a very hard time thinking people are really dense enough to think that's a good idea so I presented some extreme examples to see if that's really what he believes. Do you agree with the "no rules, at all" policy then? You're ok with your neighbor literally doing anything he wants on his property, regardless of how it affects you or your property? You don't think there should be any laws regarding that? If that were the case there would be no legal recourse for you, no "taking care of yourself", not unless he came onto your property, and even then, in the contaminated well example, it's too late. That's not authoritarian, that's respecting the equal rights of others.
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