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Old 09-16-2019, 04:04 AM
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As to wishing we had never joined, remember that next time you use a freeway in Spain. We paid for that. You are welcome.
ssuuuree.
"You didnt build that" is the line you're thinking of.
Next time you're not starving to death, we paid for that. You're welcome.
Absolutely. You've been taking advantage of the rest of the EU all along through the UK rebate and by keeping your own currency. It never should have been allowed. That you believed for a second the rest of the EU owed you anything just goes to show your disconection with reality.
Now if you could finally stop asking to stay and just leave once and for all, that would be swell.
Since Spain joined the EC, it has received over 95 billion euros more than it has paid in. The UK, by contrast, has paid in 156 billion more than it has taken out. You can build a lot of freeways with 95 billion euros (between 15,000 and 20,000 miles, not bad for a country with a total freeway system of 11,000 miles). We could have built a colony on the Moon for that, if we had wanted to. It’s a lot of money. Our net contribution to the EU coffers is 0.42% of our GDP, every year. When countries in the Eurozone are growing so slowly, it’s a significant sum.

Last time I looked, British consumers paid for the food we buy from Spain, but maybe it is handed out for free and I wasn’t invited.

'Disconnection with reality'. Comedy gold.

Last edited by Sorry-no-clues; 09-16-2019 at 04:17 AM.. Reason: Got my math wrong.
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Old 09-16-2019, 04:59 AM
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But to answer your questions, no, its not happening still and the region in general is doing much better.
No, there was no quota or condition regarding immigrants. The refugees get spread across the EU somewhat evenly even if most countries would rather do witohut them. The news oyu may have heard about forced immigration is simply, false, or that they are looking to fill the EU with muslims...[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
War is still a fact and unfortunately many refugees (people with VERY differnt values) did come in and noones happy about it but its not the end of the world disaster I've seen portrayed on the news. The influx has greatly slowed down too. Many of them have converted to Crisitianity. Immigrants always end up adapting to the new culture and this I see it myslef rather often.
Again, the panic and scare is the anti-EU MSM doing its thing.
At first was surprised to hear you are seeing that many muslim immigrants converting to Christianity as that would seem to bring some radical departures from their old cultural practices as well.

Hard to believe, but its hopeful news if true.
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:53 AM
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But to answer your questions, no, its not happening still and the region in general is doing much better.
No, there was no quota or condition regarding immigrants. The refugees get spread across the EU somewhat evenly even if most countries would rather do witohut them. The news oyu may have heard about forced immigration is simply, false, or that they are looking to fill the EU with muslims...[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
War is still a fact and unfortunately many refugees (people with VERY differnt values) did come in and noones happy about it but its not the end of the world disaster I've seen portrayed on the news. The influx has greatly slowed down too. Many of them have converted to Crisitianity. Immigrants always end up adapting to the new culture and this I see it myslef rather often.
Again, the panic and scare is the anti-EU MSM doing its thing.
At first was surprised to hear you are seeing that many muslim immigrants converting to Christianity as that would seem to bring some radical departures from their old cultural practices as well.

Hard to believe, but its hopeful news if true.
I havent seen many but I did see one, a teen girl that went from ful hijab to normal Catholic girl. Then again, I'm not the church going type so it may be happening a lot more often. She was taking her first communion along with my son.
I was curious so I googled it and sure enough theres been a lot if muslims converting, seems that moslty to Catholicism but protestant chuches too.
Yes, it does give you a bit of hope. Then again, its only normal. What kind of person, what kind of woman, wants to be muslim?
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Old 09-16-2019, 08:50 AM
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Since Spain joined the EC, it has received over 95 billion euros more than it has paid in. The UK, by contrast, has paid in 156 billion more than it has taken out. You can build a lot of freeways with 95 billion euros (between 15,000 and 20,000 miles, not bad for a country with a total freeway system of 11,000 miles). We could have built a colony on the Moon for that, if we had wanted to. It’s a lot of money. Our net contribution to the EU coffers is 0.42% of our GDP, every year. When countries in the Eurozone are growing so slowly, it’s a significant sum.

Last time I looked, British consumers paid for the food we buy from Spain, but maybe it is handed out for free and I wasn’t invited.

'Disconnection with reality'. Comedy gold.
You were invited, and you did take advantage of it, you're just showing the typical brexiteer ignorance/ingratitude/racism. Not sure which one it is with you specifically, in my experience it tends to be a combination of all three with such people, to a greater or lesson degree. If everything turns out ok soon enough you'll be doing your nations gorcery shopping in China, India or USA. Maybe then you'll appreciate what you used to have.

As for the food, what you are paying for is peanuts compared to what it actually costs to produce, thanks to the EU that largely subsidizes food production and distribution. The distribution part is where your beloved roads come into place, roads no one in Spain gives a flying f**k about. Why? It’s a highly underpopulated country, and those roads are mostly empty... except for the trucks... moving fresh produce from Spain to the rest of the EU... THATS why the EU (not you) invests in roads in Spain. And it’s thanks to the EU that you have money in the first place, otherwise you'd still be the "sick man" of Europe. How eager you were to join and how quickly you forgot. Again, ingratitude. Spain has 46 million people (and dropping) UK has 66 million (and growing, thanks to the immigration you complain about, something that I sincerely hope changes soon enough if you ever leave) , try guessing who benefits the most from having a lot of cheap, subsidised food.

No, you wouldn’t have been able to build anything on the moon because again, its the EU's budget, not yours. You just had the golden ticket that allowed you to unfairly (GBP and the UK Rebate) exploit the EU for your best interest since you joined. I sincerely hope its finally over although something tells me you’ll have second thoughts (again) and never actually leave.

Having the same currency for the entire region impacts the producers of primary products and benefits those who make processed products, let alone financial services. It also means that such countries get subsidies for food products and roads, and has to fight more to get investment for other sectors such as education and technology. The EU has its advantages but at the end of the day each sovereign State looks after its own best interests. When those States (represented by the EU) put money in building roads in Spain between towns that have maybe 50 old farts between them all, its not because of the kindness of their heart but because it benefits the Union. You believed that it was some kind of pansy a.ss socialist redistribution nonsense. Of course you were wrong.
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Old 09-16-2019, 11:07 AM
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You don't understand the whole taxation thing, do you? Like the part where governments have no money of their own, only what they take from their citizens and businesses. Like how that rule also applies, at one remove, to the EU, which doesn't tax citizens directly but gets the Member States' governments to do it for them. Like the bit where a country that is a net contributor to the EU budget has actually paid its fair share for decades, and paid its share of the subsidies to see inefficient farmers in business. It's only because we were paying far more than our share that Thatcher won us a rebate.

Spain has had billions of free money from the EU. A simple 'thank you' to one of the main contributors would have been nice but, as you say, ignorance/ingratitude/racism run deep.
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Old 09-16-2019, 11:25 AM
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You don't understand the whole taxation thing, do you? Like the part where governments have no money of their own, only what they take from their citizens and businesses. Like how that rule also applies, at one remove, to the EU, which doesn't tax citizens directly but gets the Member States' governments to do it for them. Like the bit where a country that is a net contributor to the EU budget has actually paid its fair share for decades, and paid its share of the subsidies to see inefficient farmers in business. It's only because we were paying far more than our share that Thatcher won us a rebate.

Spain has had billions of free money from the EU. A simple 'thank you' to one of the main contributors would have been nice but, as you say, ignorance/ingratitude/racism run deep.
wow, you go from understanding there no such thing as "free money" to "thank us for the free money" in like ten lines, completely missing the point that you had it way too good for way too long, at the expense of other countries. You either cant see it or refuse to do so, either way its a pointless discussion.
Thatcher won you the rebate because she was a great negotiator and at that time the EU sucked at it, simple as that.
You keeping your own currency while making a fortune as the financial capital of the EU, another thing that should have never been allowed. Either accept the same currency as everyone else or don’t join at all. I have a strong suspicion that is why they stood idly while they saw your elite screw you folks. They wanted you to leave, which by the way I completely understand.
Maybe if you finally do leave after all this mess, later down the road when the bitter old farts die away and the younger generations that got screwed this time actually get to vote, maybe then you can re-join in more fair terms and we can all be one happy family.
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Old 09-16-2019, 12:17 PM
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wow, you go from understanding there no such thing as "free money" to "thank us for the free money" in like ten lines, completely missing the point that you had it way too good for way too long, at the expense of other countries.
Not this indoctrinated colonialism BS again! The British in Africa built roads, bridges and established trade, all along with law and order, contributing to prosperity for all. When the British left, it marked the return of anarchy and genecide along with collapsing bridges, deteriorating roads and the stark reduction in trade. From Legacies of colonialism in Africa
In fact, shocking levels of inequality, oppression, and poverty are no less prevalent today than they have been since the end of colonialism. Patrick Bond, for one, has argued that Africans are poorer today than they were at independence.

Deep inequality, oppression, and misery persist despite the African boom.
I look forward to your triggered, apoplectic response.
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Old 09-16-2019, 01:43 PM
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Not this indoctrinated colonialism BS again! The British in Africa built roads, bridges and established trade, all along with law and order, contributing to prosperity for all. When the British left, it marked the return of anarchy and genecide along with collapsing bridges, deteriorating roads and the stark reduction in trade. From Legacies of colonialism in Africa
In fact, shocking levels of inequality, oppression, and poverty are no less prevalent today than they have been since the end of colonialism. Patrick Bond, for one, has argued that Africans are poorer today than they were at independence.

Deep inequality, oppression, and misery persist despite the African boom.
I look forward to your triggered, apoplectic response.
And a good number of British firms profited from that inequality, oppression and misery post colonial administration. Successive U.K. governments also enabled this looting of Africa at the expense of the taxpayers with large helpings of “foreign aid” donations.
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Old 09-16-2019, 01:59 PM
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At first was surprised to hear you are seeing that many muslim immigrants converting to Christianity as that would seem to bring some radical departures from their old cultural practices as well.

Hard to believe, but its hopeful news if true.
Its more common in Germany and Scandinavia and mostly amongst Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians. Change of surname to a localised one is becoming common as well especially amongst families with pre-school age children.
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Old 09-16-2019, 03:39 PM
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And a good number of British firms profited from that inequality, oppression and misery post colonial administration. Successive U.K. governments also enabled this looting of Africa at the expense of the taxpayers with large helpings of “foreign aid” donations.
BS. Given the UK government ended their colonial activity, there was no "enabling" by them. Now, if you admit the backwards local leaders who took over governance of Africa did the enabling and looting - post Colonial period, we might have common ground.

The absurdity of your post is revealed in 'stealing from the poor' who, by definition, have no money.
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Old Yesterday, 01:41 AM
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At first was surprised to hear you are seeing that many muslim immigrants converting to Christianity as that would seem to bring some radical departures from their old cultural practices as well.

Hard to believe, but its hopeful news if true.
Its more common in Germany and Scandinavia and mostly amongst Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians. Change of surname to a localised one is becoming common as well especially amongst families with pre-school age children.
I see it here in Spain too. Teenage girls and young women go about their day half naked. The weather, the beach, people prefer to dress lightly. Its very common to see a woman with a hijab with a young daughter, late teens, early twenties, with a mini short and tiny top. It makes sense that some would want more freedom and basically a better, more integrated life for their kids. Kids immitate those in their school and many parents are more open minded about it in spite of their original traditions.
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Old Yesterday, 04:33 AM
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Its very common to see a woman with a hijab with a young daughter, late teens, early twenties, with a mini short and tiny top.
I travel extensively for work. I have *never once* seen this. I call BS.
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Old Yesterday, 04:36 AM
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I hope that’s true. It hasn’t happened here, perhaps because of the origin of the Muslim population (Pakistan and Bangladesh, rather than Arab countries).
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Old Yesterday, 06:03 AM
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Its very common to see a woman with a hijab with a young daughter, late teens, early twenties, with a mini short and tiny top.
I travel extensively for work. I have *never once* seen this. I call BS.
Cant say I give a flying F what you think or call. You see it all day long in malls across the Costa del Sol in Spain, especially in summer when its most obvious but really year round. Its quite clear that many of these are people ok with their kids adopting to more western types of cultural norms.
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Old Yesterday, 07:11 AM
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I travel extensively for work. I have *never once* seen this. I call BS.
I have seen the "freer" girls with the hijab mum in England, Canada and Spain. As soon as they are married, it's back to hijab for -most- of them. There are exceptions, of course. Curiously, Turkish seem to be the muslim culture I observe with less hijab and more independent women.

Interestingly, one gets the impression there is a higher percent of hijab clad muslim females in London or Toronto than in Istanbul or Tunis.

I have seen more niqabs (i.e. ninjas) in London or Toronto or Malmo than when I worked in Tunisia.

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Old Yesterday, 11:00 AM
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I travel extensively for work. I have *never once* seen this. I call BS.
I live here. I have seen plenty of it. Especially in cities. My neighbors when growing up (80's) where muslims from Iran, who fleed before it became a conservative hellhole again (in the 70's). They adapted, learned the language, and sure as hell didn't go around covering themselves fully up. They got out of there BECAUSE that's what was in their future otherwise.
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Old Yesterday, 11:08 AM
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I live here. I have seen plenty of it. Especially in cities. My neighbors when growing up (80's) where muslims from Iran, who fleed before it became a conservative hellhole again (in the 70's). They adapted, learned the language, and sure as hell didn't go around covering themselves fully up. They got out of there BECAUSE that's what was in their future otherwise.
Good to hear. I have come across Persians (open minded, secular, and even zoroastrian) and Iranians (practising muslims, support the Ayatollah).

I get the feeling most people there are Persians... but I have never been there and can only think on the Iranians (secular and practicing muslim) and christian Armenians from Iran that I know.

Sadly, I have heard too many stories of secular muslim families that overnight turned into the ultraorthodox faithful. My housemate at university (and her mum and brother) had to escape from Iran after her dad decided one day, out of the blue, that they would all become megaorthodox muslims, after a secular lifetime.

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Old Yesterday, 02:20 PM
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It is really common for second generation Muslim immigrants to be more conservative than their parents. Seems to be due to the isolation in these communities. Not much to do with Brexit, but interesting.
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Old Today, 02:28 PM
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BS. Given the UK government ended their colonial activity, there was no "enabling" by them. Now, if you admit the backwards local leaders who took over governance of Africa did the enabling and looting - post Colonial period, we might have common ground.
Post colonial efforts to ensure U.K. domiciled or controlled resource and banking entities had access were significant mostly through military assistance and foreign aid payments. You will not find any argument from me on African state corruption but at the same time for all the West’s assumed moral superiority we helped those same corrupt leaders cart the money out of the continent.

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The absurdity of your post is revealed in 'stealing from the poor' who, by definition, have no money.
Its only absurd if you have little grasp of the mineral resources these people are standing on.
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Old Today, 02:53 PM
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... the West’s assumed moral superiority we helped those same corrupt leaders cart the money out of the continent.
The West's moral superiority is as plain as can be. The Africans did not fight a war to free Europeans.

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Its only absurd if you have little grasp of the mineral resources these people are standing on.
It is not me but the people in Africa had little grasp of the mineral resources they were standing on. See Cecil Rhodes discovery of diamonds.
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