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Old 09-02-2019, 11:14 PM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
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Wanted to add that it's good to learn from a few different styles. BJJ is great, but there are times where you don't want to be rolling around. You could really be twisting a guy up, and his friend could be throwing Daytons into your ribs, or head.

Probably couldn't go wrong with pairing that with Savate, American style kick boxing, or Muay Thai. Then maybe some Chinese trap boxing and Akito. And also catch wrestling.

As Bruce Lee used to say, the fight dictates the style. "I don't hit; "it" hits." on his reactions to opponents. Jeet Kune Do is the style he pioneered, which had a lot of different elements, throwing out what didn't work, and keeping what did.

And discussing and learning style and technique is great, too. Like learning how a simple grip change drastically improves a guillotine. But conditioning is huge. Bone, and hand toughening, flexible muscular strength, and cardiovascular endurance. When you are messing with someone who has bricks for hands, and is strong as a truck, swinging and defending for 3 minutes, or 5 minutes straight, is a long dang time!
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:23 PM
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Absolutely! Played around with TKD when I was a kid, and Shaolin style Kung-Fu. I believe the Kopperud style (if I am spelling it right) that it all seems to have went to, is too biased toward point fighting. The Kung-Fu was more practical. But then getting into boxing was a whole different deal altogether. The accelerated learning curve of practicing to get hit, avoid, cover and deliver powerful shots far outstripped other martial arts. After I started with a good boxing gym, I was sparring within a couple weeks. Practicing against a live partner, shows you what works, what doesn't, and what you need to work on pretty fast.



Used to hang around a bit with a few pros also, who had some success. I was sparring with one of them at another gym, and the guy told me that I should spar with a black belt that was working out there. He said: "You'd kick his ***!" which was pretty funny to me. I hadn't been doing it too long, but we kind of recognized that a lot of belts just get handed out, without a practical test of fighting skill.



Whatever style it is, you're going to want to pick a gym or dojo that won't be soft. One of my boxing coaches reminded me of "Mickey" from Rocky. Just a tough old guy, who would could fashion steel hammers from marshmallows. He'd push, instruct, berate, and make you tougher after every time. And we'd spar pretty hard. Going into a fight, you'd kind of realize that it was just like sparring, just mildly harder. One of the meaner things, was having us spar, then rotating out a fresh guy on you. It was pretty awesome.
Good post.

The guy that showed me the fundamentals was a bit of a hot head, army guy. Would always challenge guys from other disciplines to a fight. Never got to see one or anyone accept the challenge.

When I starting going to a legit gym I also became one of the disciples of a trainer with pro experience and a rep for being a wealth of knowledge. Thrown to the deep end off the bat, it's a sink or swim environment but I tend to thrive in those or at least survive them. Would be called on to spar bigger guys all the time, my fighting weights are 147-155 and I'd spar MWs to HWs often. You hang around a proper boxing gym and make a few friends and spar a few people with actual fight experience and you will learn a few things and you will also learn something about yourself.



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Old 09-02-2019, 11:55 PM
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I love proving bigger guys with this assumption wrong in the ring, and out of it.
I've no doubt that happens sometimes. If it happens for you regularly, who am I to argue?

But I don't believe it happens very much for most people. Including those who train.

I realize the need for some basic striking and I have boxed. Not just bag work and mitt work but sparring as well. I realize the need for some basic grappling and I have wrestled and trained BJJ. But I'm hardly adept at either and at 53 I've decided not to devote much more time to either.

Weapons are the focus for me. Each must decide his own path.
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Old 09-03-2019, 02:41 PM
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But conditioning is huge. Bone, and hand toughening, flexible muscular strength, and cardiovascular endurance. When you are messing with someone who has bricks for hands, and is strong as a truck, swinging and defending for 3 minutes, or 5 minutes straight, is a long dang time!
TOWARD the end of my street career I had honed my "craft" to a point where from my laying hands on to clickied up would be no more than 20-30 seconds, and it was only because I didn't want to hurt them.
IF it was a major butthed they went down a LOT faster.

The secret to it all...
have them make the first move. Once they were committed, their center of gravity shifted, and moving, then I knew exactly what my response would be and by the time they went "HUH?" it was pretty much over with. Remember what I said about doing your 3 or 4 best moves so you can do them without thinking? There ya go.
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Old 09-04-2019, 01:57 PM
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Whatever your style is, if it involves striking (with the hands, feet, etc., or weapons), the tire dummy is one of the best raining devices you can get. I recommend palm heel strikes on it instead of punches, but with padded gloves you could do punches I suppose if you want.

In any case, it gives you immediate feedback every time you hit it, telling you how effective the blow would have been. So it ends up being like lifting weights with fighting movements: your body shapes itself around what you do. I got a lot of good out of it.

Neither this nor any one other thing should be the only training you do. But this is really good combined with whatever else you do.

There is nothing like beating this up with a baseball bat to get a really good workout. All workouts with it are good exercise, but there is just something about a baseball bat that makes it especially good.







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Old 09-05-2019, 10:34 AM
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:16 PM
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I recommend the "Get Tough " course taught by William Farbane during WWII.

You can look it up on U Tube
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Old 09-07-2019, 07:49 AM
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BACK in the 70s I used to spar with a black belt who had studied in Japan and that rotating hands thing was part of the fighting style, not quite the same way but it was effective until you figured out the way around it.

IF you never saw it before it was off putting, but see it a couple of times and then you understand there is no strength to what they are doing and their center of gravity is too high and you can counter it fairly easy.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:50 PM
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Like others here, I also subscribe to the "one striking plus one grappling = somewhat well rounded fighter" discipline. I wrestled as a youth through high school and now do BJJ, but I know that BJJ alone isn't enough (what if your opponent is a really good striker or there's more than one opponent). I also do Krav Maga. There's some really good Krav schools out there and some REALLY bad ones that give the art a terrible name, but I think it's great for self defense. Krav isn't a fighting system that teaches you how to win a fair one on one fight, it's a self defense system that helps you stay safe even in an unfair situation. This is something that "fighting" arts don't do. I'm not so niave as to think that I'm the most proficient self defense expert in the world, but I think that concealed carry (and regular practice with it), carrying a knife, and the combination of both arts makes me proficient enough at self defense.

There's a lot of McDojo crap out there. There's no such thing as a "no-touch" knockout or spiritual punches. Be wary of arts that claim supernatural powers or have so much formality and rules as to render them useless in an unpredictable violent encounter.

We could all debate forever about what works & what doesn't but my advice is to look at MMA. There's a ton of MMA fighters with different backgrounds (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav, Karate, TKD) but none of the successful fighters are proficient at just one art. However, there are a lot of arts that no successful MMA fighter relies on (Aikido, Kung Fu, Systema, etc). I would recommend staying away from those.

At the end of the day, good on anyone who wants to work their hand-to-hand game. There's a lot of people who think that carrying a gun is all that's ever needed, but those are people who have never heard of, much less, attempted the Tueller Drill.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:19 PM
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Learn how to wrestle.

Then learn how to use large bones like your head, elbows, and knees to smash someone into submission.

Boxing is useful but if your not wearing pillows on your hands and have your wrists taped properly your gonna likely hurt yourself throwing punches at someone's face.

I see a punch coming I drop my chin instinctively. Said punch ends up hitting the hardest part of the human anatomy. It won't end well.

I boxed and wrestled all through high school. Boxing will help you defend against a striker in a street fight but you can not expect your bare hands to survive hitting a human skull long enough to ensure victory. One punch landing on the top of the head and your dominant hand is now useless.

Besides, your own head, knees, and elbows can deliver more devastation than your fist ever will.
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Old 09-13-2019, 04:44 AM
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Learn how to wrestle.

Then learn how to use large bones like your head, elbows, and knees to smash someone into submission.

Boxing is useful but if your not wearing pillows on your hands and have your wrists taped properly your gonna likely hurt yourself throwing punches at someone's face.

I see a punch coming I drop my chin instinctively. Said punch ends up hitting the hardest part of the human anatomy. It won't end well.

I boxed and wrestled all through high school. Boxing will help you defend against a striker in a street fight but you can not expect your bare hands to survive hitting a human skull long enough to ensure victory. One punch landing on the top of the head and your dominant hand is now useless.

Besides, your own head, knees, and elbows can deliver more devastation than your fist ever will.
Excellent point regarding the use of large bones.

I'm a Krav Maga instructor. Before anyone goes off thinking I'm some kind of self-defense bad-a$$, I'm a 4-stripe BJJ blue belt, level 4 KM student and hold just a level 1 instructor certification (means KMA only trusts me to teach beginners) and only teach a couple of classes per week. This means I'm more of a moderately skilled enthusiast rather than a self-defense professional who does this for a living.

With that being said, the more reputable Krav Maga organizations (IKMF, KMWW, KMA, & others) put a lot of thought into what is the proper techniques to teach at each knowledge and skill level. As others have alluded, most people have no idea how to fight, much less throw a punch. It may be seem counter intuitive, but this applies to people who get in fights all the time (bar brawls, street fights, etc...) Simply watch some stupid youtube fights and you'll see what I'm talking about. We teach our beginners to do palm heel strikes rather than punches for the first couple of weeks for this reason. I'm convinced that your average adult in their 30's with 1 year of legitimate martial arts training under their belt is probably safe against the type of person who would go around starting fights.

I'll say that I only partially agree with your advice on wrestling. If you'd stated "get your kids into wrestling", I'd be jumping up and down in agreement. I think that for children, wrestling IS the best sport possible for them to do. It's amazing cardio, works coordination, teaches body control, is the basic foundation for hand-to-hand combat, and there's still a team element to it which is good for kids. However, most of the people here are adults and it's not like there's a whole lot of adult wrestling programs for beginners out there.

For an adult looking to get into something, I can't recommend BJJ enough. It has everything wrestling does and so much more. There are no chokes or joint manipulations in wrestling, yet that's the whole point of BJJ. Wrestling is great for getting into a position where one can apply effective ground 'n pound, but why not save your bones & choke someone unconscious or incapacitate them by destroying a joint? Wrestling doesn't cover those skills at all. There's nothing in wrestling that isn't covered in BJJ except for pins which has no application in a fight. Also, consider the fact that MMA fighters use a whole lot of different martial arts, but BJJ is the only martial art that's universal within MMA. There's a very good reason for that.

Behind lacrosse, BJJ is the fastest growing "sport" in the US with people picking it up at all ages. I didn't start until I was 37 (20 years after my wrestling career was over) and I've seen people start well into their 60's. There's plenty of BJJ schools out there and they're almost all supportive & friendly, so give it a try. One thing to be aware of, there's some BJJ gyms out there that don't work stand-up takedowns. Not exactly the best approach if they want their students to be proficient in a self-defense situation. Unless I'm fighting a disabled person, we're not going to start the fight on our knees!

Testimonial time: My only regret is that I didn't start BJJ much sooner. I've dropped 25lbs since starting and I wasn't even close to being obese before I started. My cardio & muscle definition is vastly improved, people think I'm younger than my actual age (that wasn't the case before), and I've made a bunch of new friends (many who are preppers themselves). Honestly, behind giving my life to God and marrying my wife, taking up BJJ the best decision I've ever made.
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:26 AM
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Excellent point regarding the use of large bones.

I'm a Krav Maga instructor. Before anyone goes off thinking I'm some kind of self-defense bad-a$$, I'm a 4-stripe BJJ blue belt, level 4 KM student and hold just a level 1 instructor certification (means KMA only trusts me to teach beginners) and only teach a couple of classes per week. This means I'm more of a moderately skilled enthusiast rather than a self-defense professional who does this for a living.

With that being said, the more reputable Krav Maga organizations (IKMF, KMWW, KMA, & others) put a lot of thought into what is the proper techniques to teach at each knowledge and skill level. As others have alluded, most people have no idea how to fight, much less throw a punch. It may be seem counter intuitive, but this applies to people who get in fights all the time (bar brawls, street fights, etc...) Simply watch some stupid youtube fights and you'll see what I'm talking about. We teach our beginners to do palm heel strikes rather than punches for the first couple of weeks for this reason. I'm convinced that your average adult in their 30's with 1 year of legitimate martial arts training under their belt is probably safe against the type of person who would go around starting fights.

I'll say that I only partially agree with your advice on wrestling. If you'd stated "get your kids into wrestling", I'd be jumping up and down in agreement. I think that for children, wrestling IS the best sport possible for them to do. It's amazing cardio, works coordination, teaches body control, is the basic foundation for hand-to-hand combat, and there's still a team element to it which is good for kids. However, most of the people here are adults and it's not like there's a whole lot of adult wrestling programs for beginners out there.

For an adult looking to get into something, I can't recommend BJJ enough. It has everything wrestling does and so much more. There are no chokes or joint manipulations in wrestling, yet that's the whole point of BJJ. Wrestling is great for getting into a position where one can apply effective ground 'n pound, but why not save your bones & choke someone unconscious or incapacitate them by destroying a joint? Wrestling doesn't cover those skills at all. There's nothing in wrestling that isn't covered in BJJ except for pins which has no application in a fight. Also, consider the fact that MMA fighters use a whole lot of different martial arts, but BJJ is the only martial art that's universal within MMA. There's a very good reason for that.

Behind lacrosse, BJJ is the fastest growing "sport" in the US with people picking it up at all ages. I didn't start until I was 37 (20 years after my wrestling career was over) and I've seen people start well into their 60's. There's plenty of BJJ schools out there and they're almost all supportive & friendly, so give it a try. One thing to be aware of, there's some BJJ gyms out there that don't work stand-up takedowns. Not exactly the best approach if they want their students to be proficient in a self-defense situation. Unless I'm fighting a disabled person, we're not going to start the fight on our knees!

Testimonial time: My only regret is that I didn't start BJJ much sooner. I've dropped 25lbs since starting and I wasn't even close to being obese before I started. My cardio & muscle definition is vastly improved, people think I'm younger than my actual age (that wasn't the case before), and I've made a bunch of new friends (many who are preppers themselves). Honestly, behind giving my life to God and marrying my wife, taking up BJJ the best decision I've ever made.
Perhaps I should have said grappling instead of wrestling. I agree, BJJ is probably the best discipline going as far as grappling goes.

My daughter started in KM and has since moved on to muy thai. She's like me in that we both prefer saving our hands for chokes, joint locks and all around grappling. Especially for her. She's got small delicate hands and wrists. She knows how and can punch but much prefers to deploy elbows and knees.

Shes got wicked elbows that only came through training and lemme tell ya, even as small as she is she can wreck havoc with them.

That flat of the elbow IS a club.

So are your shins.

Knees are bricks and your head is a wrecking ball. Heavy bone. Those are the weapons for strikes.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:53 PM
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One fighting style is as good as another!

There are only three factors involved in self defense.

You should be ready , willing and able.

You can dispense with ready and able but you can not defend yourself unless you are willing.

I was a Deputy Sheriff and later an Asset Recovery agent for 32 lenders.

I have been in a lot of fights over a 20 year period.

The most dangerous people I ever knew were not trained or physically fit but they were always willing.

The truth about any type of combat is that the combatant who delivers the first injury usually wins.

The people I feared the most would just hurt you with no hesitation or remorse. They were not martial artists or huge but were just plain dog mean.

To be prepared to defend yourself , you have to be willing to hurt the other person first with no hesitation or remorse.

In WWII the military trained our troops to do this using a course called "Get Tough" It was not a hand to hand fighting style but a hand to hand killing style. It was tailored to teach average citizens to kill quickly without hours and hours in a DoJo.

You can look it up on U Tube.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:08 PM
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Why not do what the best of the best do ??????
Wrestle
BJJ
Boxing
Muay Thai
Sambo fighters are successful, but all must master striking
If we know what is proven to be the best, do that
You will never hear the words Krav Maga said in relation to MMA or MMA champions
Very few have had success with Karate or Kung Fu, judo, or whatever
Why waste time?????
It is a simple progression if you are young
The path of the best of the best
Put in the hours
Or spend your time creating firearms muscle memory and tactics
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Old Yesterday, 07:14 PM
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In WWII the military trained our troops to do this using a course called "Get Tough" It was not a hand to hand fighting style but a hand to hand killing style. It was tailored to teach average citizens to kill quickly without hours and hours in a DoJo.

You can look it up on U Tube.
I think that "Get Tough" was a good program for it's time. Nowadays, the Army & Marine Corps have created their own systems, AF & conventional Navy use something called Controlled Force, and Naval Special Warfare (NSW) uses Gracie Survival Tactics (GST).

Having been in the Navy for a long time, I've done multiple tours in different communities. I've taken Marine Corps Martial Arts (MCMAP) up to Green belt (which is only like 3 weeks), Controlled Force, and GST level 1. The Army combatives is the only program I haven't been exposed to, but I've been told is very similar to MCMAP. I'm of the opinion that GST is by far the best program as long as some striking is incorporated (NSW incorporates striking on their own). MCMAP is basically Krav Maga with minor differences in technique and it's a solid program. I'm not at all impressed with Controlled Force as it makes a lot of assumptions that an opponent/attacker is completely inept.

All of them will make you better off than they were before in a short period of time, but none of them will make you competent without constant training. If anyone tells says that you can take a seminar or class for a short period of time and be proficient, they're mistaken. One has to drill the techniques under instruction until they become muscle memory. It's not enough to "learn" an art from books or videos. Feedback from a proficient instructor is vital as no one is capable of perfecting multiple techniques without correction. Anything without sparring or hands-on instruction is something I'd avoid.

As your post alludes, none of them are "fighting" systems. They're designed to control an opponent and kill them if necessary. This is an important distinction from fighting (boxing, muay thai, karate, TKD, etc).
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