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Old 09-08-2013, 05:38 AM
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Default Judas, Saint or Sinner?



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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
There has always been the spirit of Judas lurking around, no big surprise.
OM prompted the Question, I asked a similar question regarding Loki of the Heathens a while ago

Some interesting thoughts: http://groundreport.com/judas-iscariot-saint-or-sinner/
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:03 AM
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Judas had a choice.

His pride got in the way, and he chose to be a paid government snitch.

Then his guilt overwhelmed him to the point of suicide.

Im not catholic so I cannot say if this qualifies him for sainthood but Im betting it doesn't.



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Old 09-08-2013, 06:11 AM
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Wow. Good question.
A crummy job, but somebody had to do it?

Just last week our Pastor in his sermon mentioned that his two pre-school age kids were one morning at the breakfast table discussing whether Judas would go to Heaven. He wanted to join in, but stopped himself because he realized that every theological point was being covered already.

Having committed the very same type of sin as Judas, I have a great deal of sympathy for him.
God was merciful with me, even refusing my death effort and giving me time to repent. Took years, that.
Go figure.
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Judas had a choice.

His pride got in the way, and he chose to be a paid government snitch.

Then his guilt overwhelmed him to the point of suicide.

Im not catholic so I cannot say if this qualifies him for sainthood but Im betting it doesn't.
Judas had no choice
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:23 AM
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Can't say I agree with any of the article given. Judas, as all men, had a choice. He chose sin, as most men will do. He had worldly sorrow as 2 Corinthians 7:10 outlines. His worldly sorrow brought about his suicide, no other way out. If he had sought forgiveness and repentence, I think he would have sought reconciliation, forgiveness and repented from what he had done. But as most men will, he died in his sin.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Standox View Post
Judas had no choice
Nope, it doesn't seem like did:

John 13:2,

2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:07 AM
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I think in the case of Judas is that he acted on his free will and did so from the beginning. It's clear in the scriptures he had his own agenda even when it went against the Lords command and will.

A few items to consider:

He ever called Jesus Lord or master as the other apostles did, this might be a window into his true feelings and motives.

Also Judas was hand picked like the other disciples not Jesus. His position was temporary Jesus knew what was going on all along. He was given the job of treasury but he was secretly a thief. He was stealing all along.

Jesus put Judas in charge of the very thing that would bring out his corruption, in this case money. Judas often heard Jesus speak on money but it did not change him one bit, again this shows his disobedience. The possibility to reform him was always there but it did not happen because of his own heart was never into the obeying the words spoken by our Lord.

Again we can see his true heart when he openly complained about the oil was poured over Jesus preparing him for his burial. (John 12:2-8) Again Judas didn't get-it because his thoughts were in other places. He couldn't stand this (as he saw it) waste of good money.

Also he complained about the money spent because he more than likely missed another chance of stealing on a larger scale than the usual take.

Another look into the true heart of Judas is when he sold out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, which was the price of a dead slave.

If your ox killed the neighbor’s slave he was valued at 30 pieces of silver and the owner would have to pay that amount to the owner of the slave.

Clearly, Judas was never with the program. He was greedy and had a terrible case of "love of money" and that was sadly the god he served.

Judas chose to serve another god and he did suffer the consequence.
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
Nope, it doesn't seem like did:

John 13:2,

2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,
Jn13 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:52 AM
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We all have a choice. Circumstances can only limit us to doing right or wrong. Jesus said of Judas, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and yet one of you is a devil". After Judas betrayed his master to the legal/religious authorities and saw clearly the result of what he'd done, he made a choice, he went out and hanged himself.

No saint at all, he chose to be a minion of evil.
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Old 09-08-2013, 09:52 AM
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Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[fn]



Rom 9:14

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



Rom 9:15

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[fn]

Rom 9:16

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.


Rom 9:17

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[fn]




Rom 9:18

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to har

Rom 9:19

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
Rom 9:20

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”[fn]


Rom 9:21

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Standox View Post
Judas had no choice
oh everyone has a choice.



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Old 09-08-2013, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
oh everyone has a choice.
Quote:
Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose
lol for most of us, but there is that few
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Old 09-08-2013, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Standox View Post
lol for most of us, but there is that few
everyone has a choice, that doesn't mean you wont be convinced or coerced to act differently than that choice.



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Old 09-08-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
everyone has a choice, that doesn't mean you wont be convinced or coerced to act differently than that choice.
my question to myself would be why is or did God use "ME" for such a purpose, we know for certain God would not use a righteous man for such a task right? so maybe Judas was filthy on the inside and couldn't be used for good, which would mean he could of prepared his vessel better, so maybe God chose judas because that's what he prepared himself for, that's the only freewill I can see here
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Old 09-08-2013, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Standox View Post
Jn13 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Yup, doesn't sound like he had a choice.
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Old 09-08-2013, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
I think in the case of Judas is that he acted on his free will and did so from the beginning. It's clear in the scriptures he had his own agenda even when it went against the Lords command and will.

A few items to consider:

He ever called Jesus Lord or master as the other apostles did, this might be a window into his true feelings and motives.

Also Judas was hand picked like the other disciples not Jesus. His position was temporary Jesus knew what was going on all along. He was given the job of treasury but he was secretly a thief. He was stealing all along.

Jesus put Judas in charge of the very thing that would bring out his corruption, in this case money. Judas often heard Jesus speak on money but it did not change him one bit, again this shows his disobedience. The possibility to reform him was always there but it did not happen because of his own heart was never into the obeying the words spoken by our Lord.

Again we can see his true heart when he openly complained about the oil was poured over Jesus preparing him for his burial. (John 12:2-8) Again Judas didn't get-it because his thoughts were in other places. He couldn't stand this (as he saw it) waste of good money.

Also he complained about the money spent because he more than likely missed another chance of stealing on a larger scale than the usual take.

Another look into the true heart of Judas is when he sold out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, which was the price of a dead slave.

If your ox killed the neighbor’s slave he was valued at 30 pieces of silver and the owner would have to pay that amount to the owner of the slave.

Clearly, Judas was never with the program. He was greedy and had a terrible case of "love of money" and that was sadly the god he served.

Judas chose to serve another god and he did suffer the consequence.
Well, putting that way...it sounds like he had a choice to change his behavior [heart] during his walk with the Messiah, but it got to a point where it was too late and then the decision was made for him to continue down the path he was on.
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Old 09-08-2013, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
Well, putting that way...it sounds like he had a choice to change his behavior [heart] during his walk with the Messiah, but it got to a point where it was too late and then the decision was made for him to continue down the path he was on.
You might be right esheldon. We know for sure what Jesus's thought on the matter was when He said; "Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you (Judas), the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (John 6:70)

The biblical Prophecies tell of a betrayer as early as the Psalms. At the Last Supper Jesus gave a piece of bread to Judas, identifying him as the one after quoting (Psalm 41:9). Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. Then in (John 13:18) very earlier he had warned, "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man"

Clearly Judas wasn’t a believer, and Jesus knew he was the betrayer from the beginning. But most scholars agree that Judas acted out of his own free will in betraying Jesus. As to his motives, we have only speculation.

I do believe that if had Judas asked to be forgiven before he hung himself, the Lord would have granted his request without question. But there's no reason to believe that Judas ever asked one way or the other.
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Old 09-08-2013, 03:03 PM
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I've been unable to find a copy of the Gospel of Judas online, anyone know where I can find it?

The wiki summary of it looks interesting in regards to the question I posed in OP.
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Old 09-08-2013, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Judas, Saint or Sinner?
All saints are sinners. We are all sinners. There has only been One sinless person in this world.
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:51 PM
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I've been unable to find a copy of the Gospel of Judas online, anyone know where I can find it?

The wiki summary of it looks interesting in regards to the question I posed in OP.




http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lo...pelofJudas.pdf
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