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Old 02-24-2020, 10:10 PM
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The P220 I have is a carry model. It fits under my left arm pit. The main reason for the 45ACP is that Ive shot it since the 60s. This is the first no 1911 Ive even owned. Got it 2010. Will never sell it.
The Mrs, and daughter get 357 mags. Both concealable, and more power than either of them need.

Rifles, the two ladies about and the grand daughter all have AR15s. All in 300 black out. My Daughter wanted bigger, but explaining they all use the same rounds made sense to her.

The 357 mag revolver and the 357 mag lever gun are a match made in Heaven.
The 100 yard range is limited, but CQC they are ideal.

My friend has both in 44 mag. A custom build hand gun, and a 1971 Winchester lever is great. Bring a recoil pad. The 44 mag hits your shoulder differently than any other round Ive ever shot.The range is well worth the kick.
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Old 02-24-2020, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip Wire View Post
The P220 I have is a carry model.
I LOVE my P220. I went with the 4.4" barrel and the DAK trigger. Personally I didn't like the decocker, but that's just me. What holster do you use with yours?
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Old 02-25-2020, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
An interesting discussion/argument that's been going on for many years.

Colonel Cooper once addressed it saying that he could understand the reasoning of not issuing a pistol to everyone carrying a rifle, but that if he's going along, he wanted one.

I feel the same way.


.


One example of a " rifleman " not being issued a handgun ......

1 " rifleman" per fireteam is issued an M203/M320......so additional 40mm rds are much more important . ( This being the only organic indirect fire weapon that a fire team/ rifle squad has available) .

Another example: Rifleman who are issued other items such as M18, M136, or M72A2.

Being issued a handgun along with a rifle/ carbine is a very comforting feeling. With that said, additional ammo for primary weapon ( M67s via work related) ..... for the same weight as handgun with 1-2 spare mags is comforting.



FWIW, out of the 2 listed here, I have personally had both , and the additional ammo/ frags became more desirable asset via 100% of the time involved in direct fire engagements.

With that said...... A more " civilian ish " setting in a post TEOTWAWKI/ SHTF environment, and a better case can be made for a rifle/ hand gun combo instead of additional rifle ammo for same weight.

11B
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Old 02-25-2020, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip Wire View Post
The P220 I have is a carry model. It fits under my left arm pit. The main reason for the 45ACP is that Ive shot it since the 60s. This is the first no 1911 Ive even owned. Got it 2010. Will never sell it.

The Mrs, and daughter get 357 mags. Both concealable, and more power than either of them need.



Rifles, the two ladies about and the grand daughter all have AR15s. All in 300 black out. My Daughter wanted bigger, but explaining they all use the same rounds made sense to her.



The 357 mag revolver and the 357 mag lever gun are a match made in Heaven.

The 100 yard range is limited, but CQC they are ideal.



My friend has both in 44 mag. A custom build hand gun, and a 1971 Winchester lever is great. Bring a recoil pad. The 44 mag hits your shoulder differently than any other round Ive ever shot.The range is well worth the kick.

357mag revolver and lever gun are ideal in CQC that is the best joke Iíve heard all day.


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Old 02-25-2020, 05:02 PM
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357mag revolver and lever gun are ideal in CQC that is the best joke Iíve heard all day.


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Agreed. A lever action/ revolver combination is not even close to ideal for actual combat, much less close quarter combat.

As much as I am fond of lever guns and revolvers, there are much better to choose from for that kind of endeavor.

As for overall weight:

1. 357mag weighs roughly the same as 40snw and 7.62x39mm.

2. My 4inbbl Ruger GP100 ( loaded/ 6rds) weighs 41 ounces . 2.6 lbs for 6rds of 357mag......so it does not include any additional ammo.

3. My XD40 service = 40 oz with loaded 12rd magazine for a closer comparison. ( 40snw 185gr FMJ. )

Roughly twice the ammo for the same weight .....and utilizing a handgun that incorporates DBM.

4. ( Since 44mag was mentioned), loaded fodder weigh roughly the same as 7.62x51mm.

11B
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FE3 View Post
I think that if you survive enough time in a catastrophic event then their will be more guns left laying around than live people..

Glocks, M9s, and AR parts galore for the scavenging..
You might even upgrade your loadout with something you find..

Do you want to go in with a 9mm and 5.56 because it will be easy to find? Or do you want to go in with something more specialized (like 6.5 and 10mm) because 9mm and 5.56 will be so easy to find anyway if you run out of your stock?

Maybe give yourself that advantage going in with superior firepower over what would be commonly used against you..

Survive one good shootout and then hey look at that.. You have a bunch more guns now courtesy of the losers..
The key would be surviving those first few shootouts..


Another think to think about is that a really hot handgun could be a fine primary arm..
Like a Glock 21 with a red dot site, in .460 Rowland, and like 6 or so of those great high-cap Glock mags..
You will not be one of the "Live" people if you think that garbage
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Old 02-26-2020, 10:42 PM
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You guys are awesome and have all of the best answers for both ways of thinking. Thanks dudes!

Mine is, If I'm with my buds in the Army, I want the Ammo. Having more ammo means I'll use more ammo, and, not worry a whole lot about it. I know that probably doesn't sound right, or optimal to the serious professionals here, but I'm not a serious professional. And when I was a "Professional" well, lol

If I'm not in the Army, I want a full size pistol on my hip, or available. Having more rifle ammo in any fight I might get into as a civillian or not USA , will not make any difference. A pistol might, read "Might" make a difference in some situations.
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Old 02-27-2020, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
.

Being issued a handgun along with a rifle/ carbine is a very comforting feeling. With that said, additional ammo for primary weapon ( M67s via work related) ..... for the same weight as handgun with 1-2 spare mags is comforting.
2 frag grenades or a G19 with 2 extra mags...... Hmmmmm... think I'd take the G19. But I've never been in the position of having to choose.
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Old 03-02-2020, 06:53 PM
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2 frag grenades or a G19 with 2 extra mags...... Hmmmmm... think I'd take the G19. But I've never been in the position of having to choose.
Good point.

They are not for everyone. ..lol.

Without proper training in thier use, they can also prove to worsen the situation for the end user......if you know where I am a going with this.

The M18 is much more forgiving.

Not to be confused with the M18A1.

I would take any of the 3 above over a full size handgun any day of the week if a deployment requires Infantry to actually perform thier intended mission.

Handguns are one option when ROE prohibits the use of frags, smoke, or mines.

Also found a handgun useful when primary weapon was an M24 while using it in its intended role. Not so much with an M21A5 however.

With that said, additional ammunition for primary weapon proved more valuable via 100% of the time it ended up being used while deployed.......so far.

Civilian use during some event that has adverse effect towards law enforcement response ( as in lack of any) is the basis of this discussion more so than work related tasks......so to speak. That is why I originally kept it at small arms ( full size handgun with 3 mags total vs same weight in additional ammunition for a rifle or carbine.

11B
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Old 03-02-2020, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by strokes762 View Post
I LOVE my P220. I went with the 4.4" barrel and the DAK trigger. Personally I didn't like the decocker, but that's just me. What holster do you use with yours?
Mitch Rosen shoulder holster.



The 357 mag is out CQC firearm inside the house. Smile & wait for the flash
No auto can compare with he bang from a magnum revolver.
From 1936 to the 80s the 357 mag was used by many LEO, FBI and other organizations. Mrs wire's came form the INS, but then so did she.
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Old 03-02-2020, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip Wire View Post
Mitch Rosen shoulder holster.



The 357 mag is out CQC firearm inside the house. Smile & wait for the flash
No auto can compare with he bang from a magnum revolver.
From 1936 to the 80s the 357 mag was used by many LEO, FBI and other organizations. Mrs wire's came form the INS, but then so did she.

Nice Rackage
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:58 AM
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Nice Rackage
Bigger Rackage........Er.........boomstick.



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Old 03-03-2020, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip Wire View Post
The 357 mag is out CQC firearm inside the house. Smile & wait for the flash
No auto can compare with he bang from a magnum revolver.
If your metric is noise and flash from powder burning uselessly outside the barrel.....

If the goal is terminal performance for human defense, any of the service auto cartridges with good ammo will perform similarly to the .357.

Quote:
From 1936 to the 80s the 357 mag was used by many LEO, FBI and other organizations.
Yup. Been there and done that. When I first came on we still had some cars that had manual transmissions and no air conditioning as well. Time marches on, and things improve.



.
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:29 PM
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Fragout,

I think you've been hanging out with those Canadian M14'ers too much.
This is America, we will always have sidearms to go with our rifles.
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Old 03-05-2020, 01:03 AM
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Fragout,

I think you've been hanging out with those Canadian M14'ers too much.
This is America, we will always have sidearms to go with our rifles.
Lol.

11B
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Old 03-05-2020, 10:00 PM
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I like handguns more than rifles. I carried Handguns as a soldier (95B MP and 11B automatic rifleman)and cop. I also had access to rifles, SMG's, the M60 GPMG, .50 M2 BMG and a TOW missile gunner (11H) on an Improved TOW Vehicle 901. (they issued me a 1911 for that job too.)

As a retired citizen a handgun is my first choice for most anything. Having access to a good rifle and shotgun are bonuses. If the world started going crazy in my neighborhood I imagine having a rifle close at hand would be a priority but the handgun would always be there.

I too can understand the logic of the rifleman depending on his rifle in probable combat situations to possibly be better served by extra rifle ammo. For me based on my experiences and world view a handgun would always be at my side. At my age and developing infirmities I doubt I would last very long if the end of the world as we know it came to pass.

My go to gun choices have evolved but a Glock .40 caliber pistol such a the M22 and/or M27 with spare conversion barrels will fill the primary handgun option. My Smith and Wesson model 638 would always be in the pocket with a S&W Model 66 in reserve mode as a working handgun. The AR15 in 5.56 would be the rifle of choice. A Remington 870 is my preferred nightstand heavy hitter shotgun but would not be part of any bug out kit due to weight. Then again this whole thread is about optional handgun vs. more rifle ammo so I apologize for mentioning my bedroom howitzer.
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
With that said...... A more " civilian ish " setting in a post TEOTWAWKI/ SHTF environment, and a better case can be made for a rifle/ hand gun combo instead of additional rifle ammo for same weight.
11B
I think this is the key statement. Outside of going into a gun fight, a handgun is going to provide a lot more versatility for a civilian during the spectrum of pre-SHTF, the start of SHTF, and up to the point where the wild-west begins again. Just the simple fact of being able to carry concealed in a non-permissive environment is pretty significant.

I just reworked a minimalist (well, that's subjective) battle belt for my G43 CCW. It's awkward not carrying a larger handgun, but I found a Safariland Level-2 retention holster for when I can go "open carry" (which is how I usually train when not practicing from CCW). I only have a couple of CCW's with me in VA, so I kind of have to make this work I don't have too many spare mags (a few 6+3), but this is really not a primary once I strap on the battle belt and micro chest rig, but it does offer a backup and is pretty good at deep concealment if I can't open carry my AR (pistol).

ROCK6
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:07 AM
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Open carry makes you a target. Even in most SHTF events , some discrete discretion , blending in with the masses, etc, would be smart. The cops/ National Guard will probably confiscate any guns you see. That being said, I believe a concealed pistol to be far more useful in MOST scenarios. People will still be trading and bartering in markets, and having a concealed pistol that doesnít make you a target is a good plan. Rifles are for home defense are for open carry when its REALLY bad out there. Most events wonít be that bad.
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