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Old 10-27-2019, 09:30 PM
Florida Jean Florida Jean is offline
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Even in those high density slum pits in Monrovia, everyone didn't die of Ebola though cases occurred there.

Then there were those apartment buildings in Hong Kong [?] that spread sars via the drains. [of was that a nasty flu -- brain worn out over this weekend].

Whatever plague that hit Athens in BC whatever didn't kill everyone [probably didn't even infect everyone]. Believe about a third of the population died.

The Black Death ran though major cities. Dense populations. Minimal medical skills. Minimal hygiene. And not everyone got it or died from it [though those that caught it generally died].

The diseases that caused a major population drop post Columbus are generally calculated to finish off 80 to better than 90 percent of the virgin indigeous population. That required multiple diseases: small pox, measles, TB, mumps, and so on, essentially striking at once or in fast sequence. But in the large cities of the Americas during the conquest everyone didn't die and that was often under war conditions.

Families used to have signs posted on their front doors if there was polio, small pox, measles, in the house. We always think of that as single family homes. But it included duplexes, apartments, and so on. And if they hadn't had previous contact they generally didn't get sick.

I had all my relatives on both sides of the family catch the 1918 flu -- and none of them died from it. Did have relatives die from other things in other years. Typhoid. Pneuminia. And so on. Had a relative catch polio. [probably a lot more did -- polio often presents as just a 'summer cold'].

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Yet, massive disease events causes major cultural, economic and/or historical changes. The Black Death. The Athens plague.
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Old 10-28-2019, 02:15 AM
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Cuteandfuzzybunnies Cuteandfuzzybunnies is online now
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Originally Posted by Florida Jean View Post
Even in those high density slum pits in Monrovia, everyone didn't die of Ebola though cases occurred there.

Then there were those apartment buildings in Hong Kong [?] that spread sars via the drains. [of was that a nasty flu -- brain worn out over this weekend].

Whatever plague that hit Athens in BC whatever didn't kill everyone [probably didn't even infect everyone]. Believe about a third of the population died.

The Black Death ran though major cities. Dense populations. Minimal medical skills. Minimal hygiene. And not everyone got it or died from it [though those that caught it generally died].

The diseases that caused a major population drop post Columbus are generally calculated to finish off 80 to better than 90 percent of the virgin indigeous population. That required multiple diseases: small pox, measles, TB, mumps, and so on, essentially striking at once or in fast sequence. But in the large cities of the Americas during the conquest everyone didn't die and that was often under war conditions.

Families used to have signs posted on their front doors if there was polio, small pox, measles, in the house. We always think of that as single family homes. But it included duplexes, apartments, and so on. And if they hadn't had previous contact they generally didn't get sick.

I had all my relatives on both sides of the family catch the 1918 flu -- and none of them died from it. Did have relatives die from other things in other years. Typhoid. Pneuminia. And so on. Had a relative catch polio. [probably a lot more did -- polio often presents as just a 'summer cold'].

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Yet, massive disease events causes major cultural, economic and/or historical changes. The Black Death. The Athens plague.
We don’t know if most people who got the Black Death died. For all we know more people got it and didn’t have obvious symptoms. We just don’t really know for sure what it was or anything.
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Old 10-28-2019, 07:13 AM
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Used to be, in the service you'd get a shot for Plague. What was that, I wonder? Can you be immunized for bacteria?
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:23 AM
JLeeS1983 JLeeS1983 is offline
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We donít know if most people who got the Black Death died. For all we know more people got it and didnít have obvious symptoms. We just donít really know for sure what it was or anything.
I remember seeing something about researchers studying groups of people that survived the plague unharmed and they all had certain DNA markers in common that others didn't have. The were thinking they were highly resistant to it. They also found that their descendants had a generic mutation afterwards that they think made them immune. They were planning on trying to test that theory, but i don't know how far that got.
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Old 10-28-2019, 10:26 AM
Florida Jean Florida Jean is offline
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We still have the plague in this country. It general kills some folks every year. Generally not the pneumonic version -- but that one pops up occassionally too.

General calculated death rate from the plague in Europe [calculated over 100 to 200 years was 30% to 40%]. For modern folks who get to modern medicine it is less; but plague still pops up worldwise [a few cases near/in the Ebola hit region last month]. Still runs around +30% death rate if you don't get good, fast care.

Fortunately, except for the pneuomic plague, you just have to be on the watch fleas [and dead rats/mice lying around].


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JLeeS1983I remember seeing something about researchers studying groups of people that survived the plague unharmed and they all had certain DNA markers in common that others didn't have. The were thinking they were highly resistant to it. They also found that their descendants had a generic mutation afterwards that they think made them immune. They were planning on trying to test that theory, but i don't know how far that got.
It wasn't 'all' it was that some DNA genes had a higher appearance ratio. There is some still general mutterances about that and the pestis involvement.

This genetic theory developed when some medical folks noticed that a few people, despite exposure, did not seem to catch HIV. And if they caught it, had such low levels of the HIV virus they didn't get sick; or got sick then better [with or without the anti HIV drugs] as opposed to dying from AIDS.

After case numbers like that grew, they noticed they were white men from northern Europe. Someone tossed in the idea that perhaps there had been some positive genetic selection in regards to the plague pestis way back when. I.e. some relative who had that gene and was exposed to/got the plague either didn't get it or survived because of some positive aspect of that gene. Thus the gene was selected for [and it is NOT that common among northern Europeans, just higher than other population groups].

Believe they have figured out the actual gene [if I am getting any of this wrong, someone more up on the data, please correct me]. So you could get tested for it, if you wanted.

Now, the plague has been pretty much EVERYWHERE in the Old World [developed on the steppes plains or there about -- think Huns and Mongol hoards] and had multiple waves everywhere. China, India, the Mediterrianian, etc. have probably had more exposures than northern Europeans. They may have undergone other positive gene selections that no one has figured out yet. This gene stuff is new.


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puttsterUsed to be, in the service you'd get a shot for Plague. What was that, I wonder? Can you be immunized for bacteria?
I think you are thinking of Smallpox vaccination. I had it [the smallpox vaccine] as I was an Army brat going to Germany in 1958.

Still hope it is working even mildly should someone decide to unvault some of those smallpox reserves.

The 'theory' behind the gene involved with HIV [virus] and the pestis plague [bacteria] is that it amps up the persons immune system to better fight off both infections. If they have figured out the correct gene, and it does amp up the immune system, I'd suspect that carriers are also better at fighting off other diseases; perhaps down to the common cold.

**** [As a personal aside about this amping up the immune system, I also have wondered if this gene may have a part in the autoimmune illnesses that also exist.]

Last edited by Florida Jean; 10-28-2019 at 10:30 AM.. Reason: missed a word
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Old 10-28-2019, 11:33 AM
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Used to be, in the service you'd get a shot for Plague. What was that, I wonder? Can you be immunized for bacteria?
Yes, you can be immunized for bacteria. Perussis (whooping cough), Tetanus, Cholera, Typhus, the Plague (Yersenia pestis)....there are a goodly number of bacteria we get routinely immunized against.

And yes, some of us did get vaccinated for the plague while wearing the pickle suit. It wasn't a routine vaccine - I got it when I was alerted to go to Africa for an earthquake support mission. Didn't wind up going, but got the vaccines "just in case."

There are a lot we can't be immunized against, because they have a whole bunch of bacteria in their family (E. coli is one example. There are over 300 different serotypes of E. coli - only one causes real problems. The rest are beneficial, and necessary to have in your bowels.)
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Old 10-28-2019, 04:26 PM
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We got a couple of special shots leaving for VN, I remember the Plague and another giant one called GG. We were supposed to go in for more after a few months. Haha- NOT.
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:20 PM
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GG= gamma globulin. Mostly used to prevent Hepatitis in the old days....
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Old 10-29-2019, 07:45 PM
PeterWiggin PeterWiggin is online now
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I think the bigger issue than the illness of a pandemic is societies response.

SARS almost collapsed Toronto and there were "only" 44 deaths.

Be prepared for illness, but also prepared for your neighbor's response.
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Old 10-30-2019, 01:57 PM
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I think the bigger issue than the illness of a pandemic is societies response.

SARS almost collapsed Toronto and there were "only" 44 deaths.

Be prepared for illness, but also prepared for your neighbor's response.
Yep, pre-vaccine polio outbreaks routinely shut down public gatherings.

Now imagine something as communicable as smallpox...spread via human-to-human contact.

You'd want to avoid interacting with anyone outside those in your immediate social circle at any cost.

Can't imagine that would be good for the economy...
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:42 PM
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Yep, pre-vaccine polio outbreaks routinely shut down public gatherings.

Now imagine something as communicable as smallpox...spread via human-to-human contact.

You'd want to avoid interacting with anyone outside those in your immediate social circle at any cost.

Can't imagine that would be good for the economy...

Another reason to also be financially prepped.

Yes, anyone could see how workers wouldn't go to work at groceries much less have any patronage, food truck deliveries, etc. True they have been developing 'food pick-up' or 'delivery' which provides some protection for gorcery workers; not so much for those getting the supplies [unless nothing is perishable and buyers let it sit on the front porch or in the car trunk for a few days.

Schools close; those workers stay home. Parents of children out of school stay home because the daycares are closed; or their job shuts down for the 'duration'. No pay checks. Banks might stay open some -- drive through only, and ATM's until folks become afraid of infected money. No garbage pick up.

Ah, but electric bills [assuming the power keeps going] and water bills, and cable bills, and rent, and mortgage, car payments, credit card payments....
There cards electronic payment systems, but a lot of people still use cash/checks.

Toss in some normal 'disasters' blizzards [no road clearing?], downed power lines, wild fires, normal house fires, tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, and more normal 'needs' car accidents, heart attacks, lost children, crime, run over fire hydrants.

The medical system, of course will be over loaded. no paramedics. Power linemen would probably still work since it is outside work with no people contact. Firemen -- how useful if half are sick or taking care of incapatitated family members. And, during the 1918 Flu the mortuaries were over whelmed.

So, anyway, it would pay a person to have 1] a decent amount of savings for online transactions, bill paying, etc. and 2] have cash at home to deal with stuff with possible cash needs.
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