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It's all worthless

12K views 115 replies 34 participants last post by  hels337 
#1 ·
Bitcoin has fundamental problems at it's core. For one thing. People like to talk about there is only a finite amount of BTC available. This is FALSE. Bitcoin is a decimal number. divisible down to something like 0.00000001 btc. So what this means is there's actually almost infinite bitcoin. Another thing you might hear is how secure it is. This is another LIE. Bitcoin is mined almost entirely in CHINA now because that's where all the chips are manufactured. All the ASIC hardware used to mine BTC is manufactured there so it's easy for china to dominate ANY PoW chain. They have pretty much infinite CPU horsepower to throw at it and electricity costs mean nothing there because the government technically owns everything. They aren't going to bill themselves lol.

Precious metals are also worthless. In a post collapse scenario which we ARE heading towards. The collapse of industrial civilization is a certainty. So no one will care about pretty rocks. You can't eat them. You can't drink them. The manufacturing infrastructure to utilize them will be in disrepair and collapsing. So their value will be zilch.

Cash and stocks and all other modern financial instruments will be null and void after the financial system collapses. Property deeds mean nothing. Completely unenforceable. They only exist as long as the government and it's enforcement arm exists to enforce the deeds. All that goes out the window post collapse. Your property rights will be "Challenged" And i don't mean in a court of law.

:cool:
 
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#4 ·
.

Precious metals are also worthless. In a post collapse scenario which we ARE heading towards. The collapse of industrial civilization is a certainty. So no one will care about pretty rocks. You can't eat them. You can't drink them. The manufacturing infrastructure to utilize them will be in disrepair and collapsing. So their value will be zilch.

.

:cool:
I have a 2 acre orchard (and expanding)
I own cows
Getting bees again.

I will accept PM's for them.
 
#7 ·
Care to post a rebuttal? If not i will write you off as another shill / Bag holder. That's another thing the public needs to be aware of. The big bag holders that have a stake in Bitcoin are all over these forums shilling 24/7. They have to keep the ponzi scheme going because once people know the truth about how it all works then it all collapses. Bitcoin's success is largely based on the general public's lack of tech expertise.
 
#9 ·
The OP is correct. Without some sort of civilization to prop up all these laws and moneys they are zilch.

Barter and handshake agreements will be needed. If you cheat people you will be shunned. To generate wealth, your surplus needs to be something someone else wants. PMs may work as a medium of exchange but only if every other need is taken care of.

If things get bad enough it will be 'might makes right'. This doesn't work long term but would be a first stage.
If some sort of society remains or can be re-established then things will be easier. Not pretty, but easier.
 
#10 ·
The OP is correct. Without some sort of civilization to prop up all these laws and moneys they are zilch.
Now that I agree with. However, the Survival Fiction view of the end of the world isn't really what the Financial sub-forum talks much about. TEOTWAWKI is very entertaining to read about and LARPing it is probably a fun hobby but the odds of "civilization"
disappearing are practically zero.
 
#12 ·
The entire premise the op posits relies on a singular, highly unlikely scenario that has never happened in human history on a wide scale.

For everything to go so bad that PMs become pointless means billions have died and we are back to being cave men.

Even in ancient times when the human population numbered in the single/double digit millions, gold and silver were well regarded as valuable.

Imagine a scenario where 95% of the worlds population dies out. That remaining 5% gives us a global population equal to that of the time of Christ.

Pretty sure gold and silver were used prolifically back then. Even millennia prior to that gold and silver were valued.

A century or so of corrupted currency isn’t going to change the entire history of humanity’s obsession with PMs.
 
#13 ·
Stop stirring up the straight people, @emanresu83. They don't like to be reminded of events like the Roman withdrawal from Britain, stock market crashes and currencies like Confederate cash and the Zimbabwe dollar.

As for pointing out that their tulips have no intrinsic worth, stop that too! Oops... did I say tulips, I meant valuable financial instruments!:rolleyes::D:
 
#14 ·
#17 ·
Bitcoin has fundamental problems at it's core......

Precious metals are also worthless......

Cash and stocks and all other modern financial instruments will be null and void after the financial system collapses......

:cool:

Crypto's..... Yeah, I agree they will be worthless, unless One World Crypto is created where most buying and selling is accomplished, off your implanted RFID. That chip will also hold your vaccination information. (Gates is making it happen in South Africa as I type.)

Precious metals have had value from the beginning and will continue to have value. Sure, maybe a guy has ammo you need, but would prefer a case of whiskey..... which you don't have.... In the end, he accepts your rolls of Silver Eagles for some 9mm, because a month down the road he uses those Silver Eagles to buy that Whiskey.

Stocks will evaporate, possibly overnight. Cash on the other hand, will probably be used for small purchases, even after hyperinflation. But you might drop a Franklin for a loaf of bread.


No one has a crystal ball, so everyone is guessing to the particulars. What is certain.... yeah, a crash is coming. On this road, the last U-Turn is long gone.


I believe valuable commodities and services will be 'GOLD' in the coming world of financial collapse, where bartering and the black market will be alive and well.

What will be of value?

Alcohol
Drugs (Legal and Illegal)
Womans Products (If Mama aint happy.... no one is happy)
Ammo
Tools
Services (Medical, Dental, Mechanic, etc.)

The list goes on and on.....

........

In regard to buying things now with cash, that would have tremendous value in the future......

I have thought several times about buying cases of 1/2 pint bottles of Vodka and or Whiskey. It is possible a 1/2 pint bottle of liquor, could be worth a box of 50, 9mm.

What if you purchased two dozen, single bit axe's? That's tool many would barter strongly for in a post-electric world.

Cases of ammo... 10 rounds of 5.56 in the future might be like $50 today.

Also... now is the time to take classes to learn. Take a class on how to tan a hide for leather. Take a class on auto mechanics. Take a class on 1st Aid and basic medical. Take a class on hunting and fishing. Buy a manual sewing machine with a large inventory of threads and fabrics and take a class on sewing.
 
#21 ·
Feel free to keep discussing this topic but do not expect a reply from the OP.

He did not play well with others....
 
#32 ·
A comet could hit the earth and we are all dead too. This is a logical fallacy called the fallacy of possibility. What you are describing is possible, but not necessary likely. There are lots of scenarios where gold still has value (my family used it to escape communist china in the 1940s.) and they are more likely than the complete collapse you are describing. Even more likely is a standard depression/recession - having a 2 year emergency fund in fiat is very important as no one is coming to steal your land (except maybe the bank..)
 
#33 ·
Spot on. I see the OP's mindset frequently in prepping circles. They get fixated on some worse case scenario that will allow them, because of their diligence, to survive while others won't, and it gives them an almost romanticized view of SHTF and I really do think deep down they want it to happen so they can have some kind of relevance and sense of self worth in contrast to the rest of society.

Yellowstone could blow tomorrow and if it does, it's an extinction level event that no amount of preparation for a good 90% of the global population will do anything to prevent. Why would I waste my time preparing for such a thing?

What's much more likely is that we have 18-36 month economic downturns and tough financial times ahead, which is what I prepare for. Doing so also allows me to devote greater resources to SHTF style prepping. I have a wife and four small kids to provide for, I have friends and family that I see as a stewardship, I'm not going to prep for a situation in which PMs have no value, because there's simply no point given the risk/reward of doing so.
 
#47 ·
My grandfather on my mother's side put money in all the banks in Chicago before the depression, may be he saw something coming no one else did.
They fared well during that time and realized little hardship. compared to the rest of the world.
Grandfather on dad's side took the family to Wisconsin and farmed and worked there during the depression expanding his skills in machine work and such. times were hard but all survived.
Economic collapse is always possible, and though my lifetime I have learned to gather many skills so that I had a familiarity with enough different work I could train to almost anything.
I can see the value of investing in monies from other countries that show promise, that might have exchange value in the future. I have no confidence in paper gold things like that are the worst scams in history. if the economy is collapsed how are you going to redeem it?
Someone else is holding your gold on paper, you don't have proof it's real gold or not the same gold being sold over and over to others as well. numbers are nothing and can be manufactured with little thought. If I am buying Gold it is in my hand and I will take the time and effort to prove it is 100% pure gold.
I have melted down silver and found phoney stuff, no doubt there is a lot of phony gold as well and the holders may not even know it.
I buy silver for making colloidal silver generator for my family, I don't buy silver for trade . so by melting it down it becomes valued for the silver, not the current market value. Also by melting it down I can find the phoney stuff .
IMO the better metal is lead, steel, copper, aluminum, and other workable matials for building a repairing things.
Learn how to weave clothing and work clay and other valued trades that may come into play as the econemy dumps.
 
#54 ·
While I know next to nothing about bitcoin....

....I do know that large percent of the world still lives in abject poverty who live on a few dollars a day.

Therefore they have no access to clean, running water, toilets, reliable electricity and things like the internet.

So what is the value of a digital currency that 60-80% of the world has no access to?

You can go to Yemen, Somalia, Belarus, rural india or Bulgaria with gold or even US dollars and they would understand the value.


I know in some of your bubbles the vegan restaurant and trendy retailer accept bitcoin but most of the world doesn't operate that way.

All of this on a global measure of course.

Will/does bitcoin have the ability to scale to economy?
 
#62 ·
I know the OP is gone, but his original bitcoin premise is false. There's a finite amount. 21m to be exact. No more will ever be created and not all are in circulation yet.

The fact that they're almost infinitely divisible doesn't increase the number created or put more into circulation. All it does it make it so you can have, spend or transfer infinitesimal amounts, smaller than pennies.


Second, most being mined or hardware from China doesn't change how secure bitcoin is. Wallets are insanely encrypted with an impossible to crack key. Paper wallets can be created offline that way they're never exposed to the internet and susceptible to any sort of hacking.
 
#91 ·
[IGNORE THIS FLAG ON]

IMHO, we're suffering from "money madness." That means any discussion of the topic will be somewhat insane and bizarre.
In short, money madness is the belief that money has an intrinsic value independent of the marketplace of goods and services.

To illustrate the madness, one must first understand what money is or does.
Money supposedly is a medium of exchange that facilitates trade when barter is insufficient. Money passes value to a future trade, in other words.
. . .
Why are we insane?
Let's use a sane example of a medium of exchange that passes value... a private promissory note (ex: coupon). You acquire a coupon denominated in "one free Micky D burger" and tender it at the retailer. You receive your burger, and depart. The retailer notes the coupon has been discharged, and destroys it, since it has done its job - passing value to you.
. . .
Now, what happens if you tender MONEY for your burger? After you depart, the retailer does not destroy the money - it has intrinsic value. Whoa. How did it simultaneously "pass value" and "retain value"?

At the end of a trading day, when all trades are completed, and all the market shelves are bare, how can money "retain value" for that which is not yet available for trade? And what happens if there is MORE or LESS available for trade, regardless of the static amount of money available?

Feeling uncomfortable yet?
That's cognitive dissonance creeping in. If you feel nothing is wrong, that's doublethink.

We have been indoctrinated to "want" whatever is being used as a money token - precious metal coin (gold, silver) - green pieces of paper (dollar bills) - or electronic entries (bank accounts, credit cards). And that which is offered to us, is deliberately kept SCARCE and in demand. Why would anyone need to borrow money, at usury, if it was cheap and plentiful?

There is no correlation between the sum and value of circulating money tokens and the aggregate marketplace of goods and services. Despite the classic eCONomics explanation that "inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods," we have suffered from a money drought for generations. . . and it's crushing the nation. (Bill Gates is not bidding up the price for milk and cookies!)

But, hey, what do we know, we're all INSANE.

In a sane world, only laborers and businesses would have the power to emit the mediums of exchange used to "buy" (trade) their output. Every unemployed worker could "spend" his promises to work into circulation, and discharge them when tendered back to him. Every business that needs capital could "spend" its promises to do a service or provide a product into circulation, to discharge in the future. There is no finite money pie to fight for market share. There is no usurer taking a skim. There are no stockholders demanding dividends.

Everything available for sale (that has not been bartered for) has a note / coupon to buy it with. You don't have to advertise for customers, since any holder of your coupon is a prospective customer. You don't need to advertise for workers, when all you need to do is accumulate their circulating coupons (from a note clearinghouse) and tender them. In such a world, prosperity is based on the prodigious production of surplus usable goods and services, equitably traded and enjoyed. There's no inflation, deflation, speculation or corruption of the money token in circulation. There's no competition nor contention for "greater market share." In fact, a bad reputation is the one thing no one wants - for that would terminate their ability to issue more notes in the future. Imagine a future world, where every worker and business is dedicated to the highest quality - because there is no longer any advantage at churning out cheap and shoddy products or service ... no one will use "your money" if you do.

Why would we trust banks or governments to make "our" money? They've been robbing us all along. According to the law, CONgress can "coin money" (stamp bullion) or "borrow money" - it cannot create bullion, nor can any bank.

They're the guardians of the asylum we're in.

WHO DOES HAVE THE POWER TO CREATE MONEY?

Ironically, it's been part of American law from the beginning. Look at a humble coupon and read the fine print : "cash value = 1/20 cent". Free Americans have always had the power to CREATE money... just not "lawful money."

Restating, the use of private promissory notes ("coupons") denominated in specific goods and services, is an endowed right that cannot be taxed nor regulated by government.

If ever it becomes a widespread practice for local communities to use their power to "make money" they would be free of the constraints imposed by the "official" dollar bill based insanity.
 
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#93 ·
IMHO, insurance (underwriting) is a scam. They're betting nothing will go wrong, and you're betting it will. Either way, you lose - something.
Rather invest in disaster resistance than betting it will happen.
 
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#102 ·
all value is subjective

however some things do have a minimum intrinsic value in worst-case situations.

a bitcoin can be worth whatever the market says it is

it has no minimum intrinsic value

this does not make it valueless, unless of course, the worst case scenario should occur. the value of cryptocurrency is in its network. if the network collapses, it is impossible to transact. gold never has that problem.

that said, i decided long ago not to get too far into PMs until I am absolutely sorted 99% on all preps. i have almost a year's worth of food, multiple redundant renewable water systems, multiple redundant emergency cooking and heating systems, multiple redundant ways to generate various amounts of electricity, enough guns to arm a squad and a not inconsequential amount of ammo. but i'm not even halfway done to where i'd want to be before i started stacking PMs.
 
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#103 ·
There are some things that will always have value and the worse things get the more those things will have value. A quality jacket, a good steel axe, a good shovel. We currently live in a world that is so materially rich that we don't see the value in a piece of steel. For %98.5 percent of the time humans have been on this earth if a man owned a 1 pound steel knife that would have made him the richest most powerful human to ever live. In the 1700's it was somewhat common for people living on the frontier to be homeless or roofless because they couldn't afford a a handful of iron nails. Even if there was and emp and the entire world reset we would have the benefit of all our material possessions that we now view as throw away that our ancestors would have coveted.

If everything does truly become valueless the things that are cheapest now would be the most valuable afterwords so if nothing else it makes stocking up now within reach of even poor people now.
 
#109 ·
Ultimately, governments dictate what is acceptable tender in payment of taxes - thus the basis of their monetary system.
Now, if there were no taxes due, I wonder what would be considered "lawful money"?
 
#110 ·
all business operated open to the public (as far as I know) are required by law to accept us dollars as legal tender

on a certain level, we are already in the realm of digital money, and there is no way back from there unless it is forced by calamity. even a gold-backed money will be reduced to some sort of certificate of deposit exchanged digitally for the sake of convenience and high-velocity commerce
 
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