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Old 08-02-2020, 05:58 PM
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I don't completely trust anyone I haven't known for 40 years.
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:27 PM
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I don't completely trust anyone I haven't known for 40 years.
That is not a guarantee.

I was good friends with a guy for over 40 years, we were of like mind about every thing.

It turned sour, legal drugs on his part. Long term use of Prozac.
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:52 PM
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Interesting this was a topic on another forum thread.

I'm going to say Church.....as core foundational values will more than likely be similar.

That being said the Church is also asleep at the wheel.....there seems to be a general lack of "boldly proclaiming the truth" about what is going on in society these days and seemingly, easily willing to shutter their doors from an authority that is not God.

There are however groups in my Church that are lockstep in just about everything we talk about on these boards. They are a very small group.....but ones I would trust with my life and ones I know would take care of my family if I was not on this earth.

HK
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Old 08-02-2020, 07:00 PM
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You have to assume that any militia group with more than a dozen members has possibly been infiltrated by the government, which may turn out to be the biggest threat of all. Most real churches these days are largely made up of elderly people, many of which are infirm and will not be able to contribute much help beyond verbal advice. I don't see the two choices as mutually exclusive to each other. Go for both, but pay attention to the church leaders' views on self defense, and initially volunteer nothing about your own weapon preps.
I am not so sure that church groups aren't being infiltrated as well.

Our church has hosted concealed carry classes so I'm pretty sure that we are okay on the self defense issues. (The pastor is former military.)
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:29 PM
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I would imagine most militias are a associated with a church of some sort.

I would also question how well any group would stick together in a true shtf event. Unless you intend to pool your resources and live close by or form some type of commune I would picture a spread out group breaking up as they start to realize their allegiance is with their family and maybe their closest neighbors. A militia or church group can't offer much support if the nearest members live half a days walk away.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gordon Randal View Post
That is not a guarantee.

I was good friends with a guy for over 40 years, we were of like mind about every thing.

It turned sour, legal drugs on his part. Long term use of Prozac.
Maybe I should clear up my position, after 40 years I'll know whether to trust them.
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:56 PM
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the answer to this question i think always comes down to two basic questions

what caliber of people are in the group in question

and can you really trust and rely on them

what you call the group or what its background is, is, imo, less important for this purpose than those 2 questions.

i think another important third caveat is "based on what ROE/POU?" aka "under what circumstances are we going to go in the field, for what purpose, if or when we go weapons hot? some people will need to have that clearly defined before they are willing to take part. and frankly, i think that's perfectly reasonable to ask.

so you need to clearly define the purpose of the group and the limits of its tactics if any.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:18 AM
Mr4btTahoe Mr4btTahoe is offline
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I'll stick with our small town church. We have military, LEOs, fire fighters, nurses, and a bunch of farmers. Half are over 60 and have been around the block a few times... the other half are pups that respect those who have the knowledge. I consider them family. We may not agree on everything.. but anytime anyone is in need, everyone steps up. Its just how it is.

Then again.. this is a small town church with nothing but fields around it for miles and a congregation of ~100. It would be different if it were some "mega church".

I'll gladly go to bat for our 2a such which we have several large groups here that talk to the state and local reps, have meetings, etc.. but at the same time, I don't think I'd want to be part of a militia with most of them. I also know that they'd be the first ones getting a knock at the door if things go south because of their reputation and such with local government (not bad by any means... but they'd put up a fight and they've made that stance pretty public).
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadian Prepster View Post
We don't have any militias up here as far as I can tell, but I know plenty of good people from my local parish and broader church connections that are both ideologically similar to me and concerned about the future, both near and long term. That group also encompasses a broad range of trades, professions, serving and ex-military and other skill sets, with a growing number of outdoorsmen who fish, hunt and camp. As most of the people have families to raise, they may be willing to fight and die for a cause if required, but they are not going to endanger the good of their families with reckless illegal behaviour or outward shows of force that would draw attention from the authorities. I think this dynamic also naturally limits the potential for ego-tripping that infects at least some prepper/militia groups. Consequently, I think that I have found a decent balance by connecting with such people.

I am of two minds with regards to the discussion about the role that civilians could play within a militia or resistance setting within a civil conflict. There seems to have been a fair number of resistance movements in Europe during WW2 that utilized civilians in a combat role (i.e. younger Russian Partisans, women and children in the Warsaw uprising) as well as in various support roles (i.e. the young Audrey Hepburn carrying messages in her shoe for the resistance). Most of the fighters during the 1956 Hungarian uprising were civilian, albeit many received very basic guerrilla training by the regime. How many in the IRA's fighting elements were militarily trained? And I look fondly upon the success of the Solidarity movement in Poland that was also predominantly civilian. I suppose that if the danger is grave enough, that might instill many of the participants with a commitment that mimics what is required by signing the dotted line to enlist within a branch of the military.

All that said, the groups mentioned above have had a mixed success record, and it was often the arrival of allied troops or the broader end of the Cold War that brought about the victory of their cause. Perhaps the Jews in Palestine who created the Haganah were the most successful, but even in its early days of the late 1920s-1930s when they predominantly provided perimeter security for Jewish settlements, they benefitted from the fact that most Jewish settlers from Europe would have had at least the minimum of mandatory national service in the army. They were further reinforced by veterans with combat experience in WW2, and their eventual success in bringing about and defending the new state of Israel reinforces the value of military service to such an exercise.

I would agree that the common bond of military service, within which every member subjects themselves to unlimited liability to the state should not be under-estimated. But further to that, I would point out the amount of training that even the most junior soldier, regardless of trade might undergo in comparison to the time available to most civilian preppers and people interested in joining a militia. A recruit in the Canadian Army Reserve requires about eleven weeks of training just to qualify as a trained infantry private, and the first leadership qualification course after that, that they would probably take after at least a year or two of serving within their reserve unit would last similarly long and perhaps with a noticeable failure rate. An officer candidate with a program that loosely mimics ROTC does about twelve weeks training their first summer to become a Second Lieutenant, and depending upon their trade may have to spent a similar amount of time for at least another summer to become fully trained within their trade. If any of these people were around during our time in Afghanistan and were able to meet the selection process to serve overseas, there was at least another six months of individual and collective training just in the work up to deploy for a six month tour.

What I've described above is just the basics. To develop an NCO, more senior officers or the selection process and training to join a more elite unit as even the most junior member takes even more time, training and resources. The SAS soldiers who rescued the hostages within the Iranian Embassy in London back in 1980 were assigned to an anti-terrorism unit for a six month rotation, in which they spent four days each week training on their primary task (usually an assaulter or sniper) and a fifth day in common training like first aid. And that's after everything it took to get into that unit. I emphasize the point only to establish expectations of how much an untrained civilian might be able to accomplish were they to try to get trained up on their own within a small militia group. Even if someone has the luxury of being able to spend every Saturday under the tutelage of the most experienced NCO that served in the GWOT, there's only so far that training will take you. Perhaps some of the terrorist groups that combatted the US got around this limitation by developing training camps within safe third countries were they were able to send their adherents for several months of training, financed by equally dubious sources, but even that has had mixed success and is not something that anyone on our side can realistically entertain.

Perhaps a serious militia might want to make use of and train up newcomers who are already trained as paramedics or highly skilled in ham radio to operate with them, but barring such skills it's probably not practical for most.

A Church based preparedness group fits within the time, resources and capabilities of most people and provides a nice balance of opportunity to both give and receive from a wide group of people. It might even be a healthy venue for people who want to get together to shoot at a local club and develop some self defence skills, or even provide a logistical base to house and feed fighters within a broader civil conflict, without trying to become something greater than its capabilities would suggest. At the very least, I think it prudent to prepare your local community to effectively support each other in a period of unrest such as what's facing America at this time.

We do have militias in Canada believe it or not. Just they don’t really call themselves “militia”.
Since 2015 their numbers have been exploding. There are 5 different 3% groups in Ontario alone, plus 4 other non 3% groups that I’m aware of.


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Old 08-03-2020, 04:28 PM
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How do you define "homegroup?"
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Henrykjr View Post
There are however groups in my Church that are lockstep in just about everything we talk about on these boards. They are a very small group.....but ones I would trust with my life and ones I know would take care of my family if I was not on this earth.

HK
We have a similar sub-group in my small Church. It may just be our area, but our Church has high percentage of those who "prep", and many us are current or former military and/or LEO of one sort or another (local LEO, Border Patrol, etc.) and of like mind. We already have a verbal agreement to assist one another when SHTF. We prefer to avoid trouble if at all possible, but if necessary, most of us have the training, skills, and mental fortitude to protect ourselves and each other if needed.
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:36 PM
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We prefer to avoid trouble if at all possible, but if necessary, most of us have the training, skills, and mental fortitude to protect ourselves and each other if needed.
This is why the 2 options of the OP are not relevant.

Survival groups are totally different from militia groups. One thrives by avoiding trouble, but the other withers if it does.

Militias, reserves, armies, whatever, train to be in combat, but training is the setup instead of the goal. The longer a fighting unit avoids combat the weaker it gets. But a survival group gets stronger in peace if led correctly.

Skilled survival groups get stronger by adding trained personnel, but fighting units stave off ineffectiveness by adding trained personnel.

The OP shouldn't see it as an equivalent choice.
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Old 08-05-2020, 12:41 AM
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If you just feel the need to join something then join your local volunteer fire dept., sheriffs posse or search and rescue. You will be with vetted and mostly sane people that are already plugged into the emergency system in your area.
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Old 08-06-2020, 04:16 AM
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I understand what all you're saying Zeke. I read your posts carefully and disagree with some of what you are saying but respect how you got to those beliefs.

I think A LOT of your "vet talk" grossly overestimates veterans as being radically different than anyone else. And as a side note, being an LEO vets and qualifies you are a warrior about as much as working for any other service department in that municipality from my experience.

We are all inherently weak as humans first and foremost.

When I read about Eddie Slovak to see who you were mentioning, I read several mentions of chronic desertions among the rank. Army made an example of Eddie, in part, because there were so many soldiers that were deserting and refusing to fight, choosing jail over combat once things really were getting bloody in 1944/45.

This is ADDITION to the MAJORITY of soldiers in WW2 that were thought to have never fired their rifle. Only 15% to 20% ever discharged their weapon in the presence of the enemy. Germans were thought to have about the same numbers. Less than a quarter of the combatants on either side did all the fighting.

Less than 1% of US WW2 fighter pilots created 30%-40% of air-to-air kills. Most pilots never killed or even tried. They just flew around.

800,000 men in WW2 were classified as 4-F due to psychiatric reasons.

An additional 504,000 were discharged post-combat due to psychiatric reasons.

The British could only keep front line guys in combat for 12 days before rotating them out due to these issues.

The US Army determined that 98% of combat personnel original to the D-Day invasion, were combat ineffective 60 days post D-Day.

In the 1982 Israeli incursion into Lebanon, psych losses were DOUBLE the combat losses.

In the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, both Israel and Egypt lost 1/3 of casualties to psych causes.

At Gettysburg, of the 27,574 muskets that were picked up off the battlefield by the Union Army following the battle, approx 24,000 were LOADED. In other words, most soldiers loaded up, then looked around, then ran around, then hunkered down, and tried to make themselves scarce in the fog of war until they caught a fragment or just dropped their weapon and made a business decision to move elsewhere.

Even in the modern era, I am aware of a MARSOC team leader who was top of his class in selection, who was by all measurable standards above excellent mentally and physically, who totally dominated every specialized training he was put through, totally fail when subjected to enemy fire for the first time. All team members exited the vehicle and engaged, whereas he staying inside, never exiting the soft skinned vehicle. Following that, he did EVERYTHING he could to position himself within the teams to avert being in a direct action role ever again.

Another example, the much celebrated Navy SEAL, Marcus Luttrell. I am personally aware that he hid during key moments in the fighting. When he was found by the Afghan who "saved" him, he had all 11 mags in his kit, full of ammo, plus frags. Almost everyone in the special ops community looks at him in disgust and he is completely unwelcome in a great many places.

Zeke, I'm sure you're a warrior and none of this applies to you.

But the human condition is weak, and former mil service, while intending to instill much of what you described, does not inherently change a man into a non-human. We are all still weak and all, with the exception of sociopaths, are generally resistant to killing.

I get what you're saying, and whether its a cook or a Raider, everyone knows that you're a slave in government svc. For example, you don't have a yes/no option on being a human pin cushion for whatever they're loading up in those hypes. Oh they lost your paperwork? Full round of shots again! Enjoy that autoimmune disease you'll eventually die from as a result so we have have your paperwork on file. Nor do you have an option on being sacrificed to cover exfil of someone else, somewhere else. Nor is there an option sometimes but always forward thru a fight.

But just because someone was made to do that at age 20 during encounters that are gauged in minutes or hours before heading back in, in today's US mil with the benefits and force multipliers we bring to the table, doesn't automatically mean every vet is Audie Murphy for the rest of their life and the rest of the citizenry are subtier nothings.
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Old 08-06-2020, 05:21 AM
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I understand what all you're saying Zeke. I read your posts carefully and disagree with some of what you are saying but respect how you got to those beliefs.

I think A LOT of your "vet talk" grossly overestimates veterans as being radically different than anyone else.
Everything after that point was pure guesswork on your part.

You cannot guess the mind of a veteran unless you've been there. You are either one or you are not.

I'm not sure why civilians think they have some insight. I suspect solipsism or resentment felt when told their beliefs have no basis.

The bottom line is clear. Are you a vet? If you aren't then all your reading and estimations are guesswork.

If you haven't seen the elephant then you don't understand the zoo.
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Old 08-06-2020, 07:55 AM
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I have been shot at twice and I did not like either time. However, I did learn that I don't "freeze up" or freak out. Yes, I ran for cover but I was able to "clearly think" about my next actions. That bit of knowledge has been a real comfort to me knowing that I am not going to let my family down in a bad situation.
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Old 08-06-2020, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Cornteen View Post
...This is ADDITION to the MAJORITY of soldiers in WW2 that were thought to have never fired their rifle. Only 15% to 20% ever discharged their weapon in the presence of the enemy. Germans were thought to have about the same numbers. Less than a quarter of the combatants on either side did all the fighting.

Less than 1% of US WW2 fighter pilots created 30%-40% of air-to-air kills. Most pilots never killed or even tried. They just flew around.

800,000 men in WW2 were classified as 4-F due to psychiatric reasons.

An additional 504,000 were discharged post-combat due to psychiatric reasons.

The British could only keep front line guys in combat for 12 days before rotating them out due to these issues.

The US Army determined that 98% of combat personnel original to the D-Day invasion, were combat ineffective 60 days post D-Day.

In the 1982 Israeli incursion into Lebanon, psych losses were DOUBLE the combat losses.

In the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, both Israel and Egypt lost 1/3 of casualties to psych causes.

At Gettysburg, of the 27,574 muskets that were picked up off the battlefield by the Union Army following the battle, approx 24,000 were LOADED. In other words, most soldiers loaded up, then looked around, then ran around, then hunkered down, and tried to make themselves scarce in the fog of war until they caught a fragment or just dropped their weapon and made a business decision to move elsewhere. ...
Interesting. Links would be appreciated. As to Gettysburg poor training seems to have played at least some part in the huge number of weapons found to have been rendered useless by double and even triple loading.
"After the battle of Gettysburg more than 37,000 muskets were salvaged. Of these 24,000 were loaded and 18,000 were loaded more than once. Some had unopened cartridges, others had bullets upside down. Based on these statistics, some argue that thirty five percent of all engaged troops were ineffective. 11
"Fuller, The Rifled Musket, p. 29.

One thing that appears lacking during the war and in preparation for battle was marksmanship training. With little time available after the formation of units, training was limited. Most rifle training involved drill of the seventeen actions required to reload the weapon and "dry" firing target practice. References to actual target practice are few and according to most who kept diaries, it was a rare and exceptional event. The 24th Michigan was sent to the front within three weeks with only one recorded target practice. The 13th Massachusetts were formed in August 1861. They delayed their first target practice until the spring of 1864, after fighting in over six battles." https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a227467.pdf
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Old 08-06-2020, 11:42 AM
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As to links, much of my info there was gathered from Lt.Col. Dave Grossman's work. He is/was a West Point instructor and then head of mil science at Arkansas State. 82nd Airborne guy. Wrote a couple books on the topic that cited various studies. I first met him Carlisle Barracks then again more recently at one of his seminars.

Zeke I'm not trying to compare prick sizes with you. Your points are well taken and I am glad there are meat eaters like you out there when whatever is coming comes. We don't have to agree on everything and I am not going to confirm or deny anything because you could be anybody and Im not taking the bait. Historically once you say "I was in the Navy" or whatever, then THAT is challenged. Post a redacted DD214, and internet warriors will challenge that too. No point in any of it. Just strangers on the internet throwing out thoughts. Lets be Americans together and flame the people that want to destroy us.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:32 PM
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When I lived in CA, my group was 5 families: three were veterans, two were EMS. None went to my church.

Churches are fine and good, but in my experience many are comprised of sunshine soldiers, old people, and other “soft” people. Not to say that there aren’t strong, good people: my best friend went to my church, and I would trust him with my life, and have. But just this month I was “excommunicated” from my church because I committed violence in self defense and refused to write a letter of apology to the church over it. And if the world goes down the tubes, of my group will leave me for defending myself and family, then that’s not going to help much.

On the other hand, militias are often made up of machos, “oorah, I wanted to be a marine” and the sort. Again, not all, but a bunch are too focused on “ I wish a mother would” and less so on “hey, society collapsed, glad I have more than 72 hours of MREs put up.”

I’m in the process of moving right now, so I’ll be having to get a new social group set up. Being in rural Montana, I should be able to find some good men who can make food, but also handy with a rifle. I’ll probably look for some fellow veterans.
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Old 08-06-2020, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornteen View Post
Throw out your PROS and CONS of committing to ONE or the OTHER as your network to rely upon, defend, and survive together if things get unimaginable.
Church Group:

Pros: People you already know and trust. A common belief system. A sense of accountability to other members.

Cons: Possible infighting unless well organized and clear leadership.

Militia:

Pros: Uniformed and organized. (Hopefully) being lead by formerly Senior NCOs, Senior Officers, or Senior LEOs etc.

Cons: Like Zeke mentioned above, when a fighting group goes without an enemy for too long it becomes demoralized and will quickly try and fill the void with politics and racial BS. It would suck to put in the time and energy to a group that changed to a moral standpoint you just can't agree with.

You might end up with people with different principles. Historically, when armed groups gain any type of power or authority the chance for corruption and infringement goes up.

Self Importnat Dirtbags. ie Gator Monroe types who want any excuse to shoot someone they don't like..
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