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Old 12-30-2009, 08:39 AM
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I read the excerpt that you posted.
The original link is low bandwidth, has no video and has information from other
parts of your state if you're interested.

Yes, the USA has plenty of oil and will continue to use it until after you and I
are put into the ground.

Thanks.
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenSERF View Post
Seekher, if a hunter goes onto another hunter's/farmer's property without permission,
what will he be considered by that property owner?
Target practice...
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Old 12-30-2009, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestBeekeeper View Post
The USA has far greater oil reserves than the entire Middle East has.
No you don't, not even close; even if you take into account off shore rigs which are technically "International Waters" you don't...

The other problem you're faced with is how do you get it to you...Will oil tanker ships still be sailing from Alaska or from the offshore rigs (unless a pipeline is established)...Will you have a sufficient workforce to man the oil rigs, pumping stations, tankers, fuel trucks etc....

Of course it depends entirely on what kind of SHTF scenario you'd imagine...With an EMT Burst, your vehicles are toast, except the old non electronic ones as well as any communication devices--PDA, cells, MP3 etc...

Nuclear or biological you're looking at total destruction (or not depending on bomb) of structures or with either massive devastation of human life which unless buried/burnt means big time disease problems...Then what percentage of the population will survive or perish 50/50, 60/40. 70/30, 80/20, 90/10 or 95/5 will also play a major deciding factor in how the rest will survive...
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenSERF View Post
Yes, the USA has plenty of oil and will continue to use it until after you and I are put into the ground.
Thanks.
Very true, it does and it certainly will but the problem is accessibility, deliverability, environmentally and of course financially...Think $25 to $30 gallons in today's money, now...Just about/nearly like what the Europeans are paying. today!

Canada has a HUGE reserve in Alberta called the Athabasca Tar Sands and there lies the problem, how to extract, efficiently (which means cheaply) the oil from the sand...
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:39 AM
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Seekher,

Tar sands and the easily accessible oil all take EROEI [this is low bandwidth ]
into consideration.

Yes, there is more easy oil in the ME than in USA, but still plenty of oil in the
USA. If we're in a future situation in which gasoline is very expensive, then
diesel will be as well (used in farming). With fuel costs high, the costs for
food (grain, meat, fruit, etc) will be high. Fuel and wild game are both expensive
in Europe. However, poaching rings also thrive in Europe. Any fuel used by
them is just the cost of doing business. With any expenditure of energy, you
have to ask what the person is getting in return for it?

This applies to many human activities including the distance traveled to go
hunting/gather food. If you have to push out to a different area to get food,
then you would stay there and use up those resources before being forced
one way or another to move to the next area.

My ancestor's path in America from the 1750s followed that pattern until the
early 1900s: hunters to farmers to industry. It will probably have to go back
in reverse.
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Old 12-30-2009, 01:15 PM
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Default USA sits on the world's largest oil field but refuses to pump it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekHer View Post
No you don't, not even close; even if you take into account off shore rigs which are technically "International Waters" you don't...
Yes we do.

"The U.S. is sitting on the world's largest, untapped oil reserves"
http://wwa.kiplinger.com/businessres...ty_080630.html

http://www.stansberryonline.com/OIL/...code=XOILG704/


America is sitting on top of a super massive 200 billion barrel Oil Field
http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X134...news2.13s.html



"The state of North Dakota also released a report ... which estimated that there are 2.1 billion barrels (330,000,000 m3) of ... oil in the Bakken [field]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakken_Formation
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Old 12-31-2009, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
USA sits on the world's largest oil field but refuses to pump it.
I'd prefer not to wander too far from the original topic of deer depletion but
if we're going to talk oil then we could at least address it in the sense of easily
accessible oil depletion.

I randomly clicked one of your links above and was instantly met with
this quote:

Quote:
There are significant reservoirs of oil in the Bakken shale.[3] Oil was first discovered in the Bakken in 1951, but efforts to extract it have historically met with difficulties.
Refusing to pump is different from an inability to efficiently extract it based on
EROEI.

Maybe you could begin a thread on this topic elsewhere? I'd love to hear
more if you know of a current technology to extract it at a reasonable cost.
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Old 12-31-2009, 11:38 AM
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This was your quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestBeekeeper View Post
The USA has far greater oil reserves than the entire Middle East has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForestBeekeeper View Post
Yes we do.
"The U.S. is sitting on the world's largest, untapped oil reserves"
America is sitting on top of a super massive 200 billion barrel Oil Field
"The state of North Dakota also released a report ... which estimated that there are 2.1 billion barrels (330,000,000 m3) of oil in the Bakken [field]"
NO, you don't regardless what some over enthusiastic reporter states in the media...Also, the stuff you have is 10 times harder to extract then the stuff we have in Alberta and that's 100 times harder and more expensive to obtain then the other regions can and do...

Do or don't believe me but here are the latest reports that does not reflect extraction or processing costs...

World Oil Reserves by Region
Middle East = 56%
North America = 16% including Canada
Africa = 9%
C & S America = 8%
Eurasia = 7%
Asia & Oceania = 3%
Europe = 1%

World Oil Reserves by Country
Saudi Arabia = 267
Iran = 138
Iraq = 115
Kuwait = 104
United Arab Emirates = 98
Canada = 179
Venezuela = 87
Russia = 60
Kazakhstan = 30
Libya = 41
N igeria = 36
United States = 21
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Old 12-31-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenSERF View Post
With fuel costs high, the costs for
food (grain, meat, fruit, etc) will be high. Fuel and wild game are both expensive.

in Europe. However, poaching rings also thrive in Europe. Any fuel used by
them is just the cost of doing business. With any expenditure of energy, you
have to ask what the person is getting in return for it?

This applies to many human activities including the distance traveled to go
hunting/gather food. If you have to push out to a different area to get food,
then you would stay there and use up those resources before being forced
one way or another to move to the next area.
Hunting in Europe is expensive because there isn't any "free" land as most is owned by aristocrats, royalty and rich people and allow others to hunt "their" game for a price--sorta what the states and provinces do with hunting seasons...Add to that the cost of $25/gal fuel and a free wild boar culling hunt on a military reserve base is still expensive...

I'm really giving it a thought to purchase a few horses--draft and riding; build a stable (large enough for the other animals as well) and a corral for them on our acreage and get some of my neighbours to plant some alfalfa/timothy for me so I can use a side cutter and baler on my tractor for feed...My place just isn't big enough to support them on their own--now on the family farm north of here, no problem...

Old Inuit (Eskimo) comparing snowmobiles to sleds, saying--"Dog sled is good, you can't eat a carburetor" also applies to horses...

The first thing that is going to go is petrol for vehicles as the first thing that will occur in any major incident is the transportation system will fail and goods will not be able to be trans-shipped...Which of course includes petrol products...Once the local reserves expire, what do you do?

I have a 500 gal fuel tank (with, maybe, 50 gallons in it) of diesel for the tractor (all our cars are regular) but when that runs out the only way we'll be able to maintain our fields is by either human or animal (horse, oxen) powered tools...Well at least I/me/myself won't have to mow the lawns anymore, as that will be done by the goats, horses...

Like I said, a good read is the S.M. Stirling series of books where combustion, of any kind, doesn't work..No autos, generators, fuel will burn but not explode, no guns, no nuclear or coal power--nada/zip/nothing! Seven Westcoast and three about Nantucket Island which are just starting to come together in volume six of the West series...excellent, well written and researched...
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Old 12-31-2009, 02:46 PM
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LOL, yes, dog sleds will increase range when looking for deer.
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:59 PM
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My first post here. Fantastic forums btw. Up front I will say that I am opinionated though by no means an expert and will debate topics I feel strongly about with people who know more about them then I do simply for the sake of squeezing more information from them.

Concerning this thread-

When given the argument about the deer population being wiped out not long after shtf, my answer is that I will be happy to harvest one deer a month. I tend to agree with those who say that the deeper in country you go, the less likely you are to run into other hunters and wiped out herds.

Concerning poaching (hunting anothers property, stealing from traps etc), I think poison would do the trick. Would not only kill/discourage poachers but would also help to neutralize animal predators who are competing with you for the same resources. Man traps placed around off-road points of access to your property can't hurt either.
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Old 01-09-2010, 06:29 PM
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Dogs,cats,pigons,rats,carp,seagulls...Tons of food around, just be more open minded. That pesky dog that barks all hours of day and night down the street...
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Old 01-09-2010, 08:01 PM
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What about crow, my favorite flying possum.
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_saxon View Post

When given the argument about the deer population being wiped out not long after shtf, my answer is that I will be happy to harvest one deer a month. I tend to agree with those who say that the deeper in country you go, the less likely you are to run into other hunters and wiped out herds.

Concerning poaching (hunting anothers property, stealing from traps etc), I think poison would do the trick. Would not only kill/discourage poachers but would also help to neutralize animal predators who are competing with you for the same resources. Man traps placed around off-road points of access to your property can't hurt either.
I don't know how many people are in your household or if you would have
other kinds of food to eat, but a related question is: how many households
on your county block multiplied by 12 deer/year totals what? Example:
10 houses * 12 deer = 120 deer.

Even if there was no possibility of legal repercussions, my gut feeling is against
poisoning.
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Old 01-16-2010, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenSERF View Post
I don't know how many people are in your household or if you would have
other kinds of food to eat, but a related question is: how many households
on your county block multiplied by 12 deer/year totals what? Example:
10 houses * 12 deer = 120 deer.
Way too many. But my bol is another story altogether and I would put that number at 3 (households), and it is something we are doing together with these other families.

Quote:
Even if there was no possibility of legal repercussions, my gut feeling is against
poisoning.
My gut is real strong against it also, but securing a stable food source for my family is a bit more important than how I feel about any particular thing.
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:50 AM
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OK, 36 deer. Let's assume you're extraordinarily blessed and there's 50 in your area.
Do the math for next year and the year after. Consider deer herd replacement from
new births, but also factor in possible herd losses due to weather, predation, disease.

No matter how you play with the numbers, they don't look good even by year #2. And,
before that you'll be running into the next 3 households over who had a similar "75% of
our diet is wild venison" survival plan.

I have no idea what kind of "poison" you would use, but secondary uptake in other
animals would be something for you to consider. If it's toxic, hope those other animals
don't take dumps around your other natural food sources and water supply.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenSERF View Post
OK, 36 deer. Let's assume you're extraordinarily blessed and there's 50 in your area.
There are 15-20 deer per square mile in our state and easily 25+ per square mile in the area of our bol. Take a 4 square mile grid around the bol and thats 100. Thats not being blessed, thats a deer herd thats way too big.

Quote:
Do the math for next year and the year after. Consider deer herd replacement from
new births, but also factor in possible herd losses due to weather, predation, disease.
I actually see the deer popuation exploding after shtf. Less people hunting means more deer. Not everyone can hit, track, and properly dress their kill. Hit the wrong spot or make a mistake in dressing it and you've poisoned your own meat.

Quote:
No matter how you play with the numbers, they don't look good even by year #2. And,
before that you'll be running into the next 3 households over who had a similar "75% of
our diet is wild venison" survival plan.
Why are you assuming thats my survival plan? I said I would consider myself lucky to get one a month, not that its my survival plan. It would be great because it would mean that much more to put into store and that much less to take out of store.

I would never try to feed my family on luck. Please don't make assumptions about me like that, its offensive.

Quote:
I have no idea what kind of "poison" you would use, but secondary uptake in other
animals would be something for you to consider. If it's toxic, hope those other animals
don't take dumps around your other natural food sources and water supply.
I wouldn't use a toxic poison.
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Old 01-16-2010, 04:10 PM
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Tom,

Can you post a link for where you're getting your deer per square mile data?

Thanks.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:29 PM
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Default Oregon mule deer populations...

From 1926 to 1933 Oregon's mule deer population ranged from 39,000 to 75,000 animals. 2008's estimate was 229,037 with a management objective of 347,400 mule deer. -Dept. Fish and Wildlife
This is a pdf file off the ODFW website...not very much chow if your hunting mulies. A cougar (the feline type) eat a deer a week. How long is 110lb deer thats really only 40-50lbs of eating meat, going to last you when your hungry from all the running? What's the population of New York City?-WW


http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources...atistics_c.pdf
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Old 01-17-2010, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenSERF View Post
Tom,

Can you post a link for where you're getting your deer per square mile data?

Thanks.
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...__plan6-03_pdf

PA State Game Commission. Page 31.

I am glad you had me look up the current numbers, I underestimated. 25 per square mile is the average for the state, not 15-20. There are less deer in the public game lands and more on private land and in urban areas.
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