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Old 12-28-2017, 08:09 AM
sixtus sixtus is offline
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Default How many have 22LR for self defence.



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I'm a 22LR rifle hunter on various game but no illusions, its no stopper if something large comes your way.

I see quite a few folks on youtube testing handguns in this calibre for self defence applications touting a chestful of CCI stingers would not be pleasant even at reduced velocity.

Not being a handgun guy I wondered if most folks consider this more a case of the 22LR being the gun 'you have on you at the time', or a valid choice for various reasons?
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Old 12-28-2017, 08:23 AM
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There is a vocal minority that believes it's a good idea because they can get a bunch of rapid hits and collectively, the hits will cause damage comparable to more powerful rounds. .22LR is cheap and pleasant to shoot, so to justify its use, you end up reading a lot of crackpot theories about it "pinballing around inside the body bouncing off bones."

But most "gun guys," including me, think .22LR is weak enough that the bad guy is likely to still run up and stab you to death, or whatever it is he's trying to do, before possibly bleeding out later, and do not trust it for self-defense use.

If it was all I had on me, I would probably try to get a couple of hits with it and then prepare for grappling or find something to use as a club.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:16 AM
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A 22lr CAN kill a human being. Would I rely on a 22lr for self defense, absolutely not!
The local police chief teaches concealed carry classes, and he says that somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 percent of people use a 22lr for the pistol qualification.
I wonder if people are afraid of recoil so they choose the 22lr instead of something larger.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:25 AM
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A .22LR is still better than nothing at all. As for it's effectiveness a .22LR very nearly succeeded in putting my uncle in a grave. Instead, it put him in a wheelchair for 57 of his 69 years. The bullet entered the chest just under the right nipple, through the lung and out the spinal cord. He almost drowned in his own blood.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:29 AM
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A .22LR pistol is at the very bottom of the pile as far as my self defense choices go. Can it kill? Yes. Are larger calibers preferable? Yes. If it's all you have, you need to really concentrate on shot placement in a self defense situation (which is more difficult when your hands are shaking from adrenaline).

In my view they are best used for trapline work or chasing off varmints/harvesting small game.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtus View Post
I see quite a few folks on youtube testing handguns in this calibre for self defence applications touting a chestful of CCI stingers would not be pleasant even at reduced velocity.
I've owned a handful of .22LR pistols and rifles over the years, and when that was all I owned, I did try to find ammo that would serve in a defensive role in a pinch. I wised up fairly quickly, though, and moved to 9mm. I ran into so many reliability issues with rimfire ammo in semi-auto firearms that "stopping power" wasn't my only ammo concern.

My wife wasn't so easily convinced. I bought (and eventually sold) a Ruger SR22 as soon as they hit the market, and my wife insisted that it become her carry gun as soon as she got her permit, on the basis that she could empty an entire 10-round mag into the head of an assailant. I countered her with a simple question: How much time does she really think she'd have between when a threat presents itself and gets too close for her to get a shot off? Even with the minimal recoil of the caliber, what idiot is going to let someone get off 10 aimed head shots at them? She eventually got the point, switching first to .380 and later to 9mm for a carry gun.

The only .22LR firearms I own now were inherited, although I have a CMMG drop-in conversion kit in a closet, in case I ever decide I need a dedicated anti-squirrel AR15.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ_HighCountry View Post
A .22LR is still better than nothing at all. As for it's effectiveness a .22LR very nearly succeeded in putting my uncle in a grave. Instead, it put him in a wheelchair for 57 of his 69 years. The bullet entered the chest just under the right nipple, through the lung and out the spinal cord. He almost drowned in his own blood.
I am sorry to hear about this, however long ago it was. But I will note, you are saying a 12-year-old survived a hit in the chest that exited through the spine.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:45 AM
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“The .22 Pistol and You” - There was a REALLY great post at:

http://straightforwardinacrookedworl...lr-pistol.html

Condensing the choice tidbits from the article and adding the more learned comments from readers having LE or Intel, real operational experience yields food for thought:

“Once upon time I spent a week with a retired CIA spook ... paid, to give….training in useful skills that would aid me in …. my future endeavours….after a steak dinner…he went to pay the tab and was looking for… something…and in the process laid out a worn pocket holster with a small automatic… worn blued Walther TPH (German) and, having never seen one before I wanted to know more…..

"He told me of a few misadventures….but,…his parting remark…stuck with me "If you are lucky enough to travel around the world armed and doing it mainly alone do yourself a favor always carry a .22 pistol, regardless of anything else you pack."


“…nights later sitting in the dark….getting ready to make a mad dash for the territory ahead…and, people with not-so-questionable intent well within my comfort space...which was down the stairs, I didn't think about wanting a rifle, or… one of my beloved 1911s. I remember longing for that .22. Not because I thought it superior…but,…due to the fact I should have had (a gun, ANY gun!) with me…."


"If you …compare ….the .22 long rifle to anything else…you …ask why are you… having the .... discussion. ... While some of us…are allowed to own, shoot, and carry a wide array of calibers, actions, and magazine capacity, (outside then US) others are not so fortunate. For example….handgun ownership for self defense in Mexico is… damn near impossible… there exists only one legal gun store (in the whole country!) and it sits on a military base in Mexico City….A household can…have one defensive arm…either a pistol or a revolver but, it has to be within the .22 to .380 scale...and you can only possess 200 rounds of ammo a year. If I were an honest Mexican citizen and left with that choice I'd choose the .22. “Whoa!" you say… If you live in such a place…what do you think the availability of shooting ranges are?

"Hence some things need to be done covertly where a drive into the country side and back into the trees you can fetch (quality trigger time) without unwanted attention….for people…in …countries…with restrictions it's …easier to FIND .22 ammo on the pseudo black market without having to delve…into conversations with individuals your mother wouldn't approve of, let alone the Policia."

"….(If) you had to be on the move through a varying landscape….for a few days with …unfriendlies about….(mostly) on foot, or catching the occasional mass transit system, or train, or negotiating a ride for the next twenty miles.....just getting out. There on your hip concealed in all of its glory is your beloved full size center-fire pistol and two fully loaded magazines. "

"The point to (having) two handguns…flexibility….. There are times….where suppressive fire is just good application. For …folks who work alone, far away and, outside of official channels there is a place for the .22 in your life…it can serve as a not so gentle reminder that incoming fire has the right of way to those who are actively shooting at you…. "

"In a mobile pursuit….tires can be flattened from a distance. Traffic jams can be created BEHIND you thus assisting in the escape. Being pursued on a long and rural darkened road head lights can be shot out (don't misinterpret that as one bullet for one head lamp as if it were a steady and calm Olympic event)… I've never met a soul willing to pursue at a high rate of speed in near pitch black conditions. And while I've seen plenty of spare tires on vehicles I don't recall too many spare headlights."

"What message would it say to….aggressors walking down the street if a shot rang out, then another and still another as street lights systematically were shot out…(Anyone) willing to not only embrace a fight but, to deliberately do it in the dark will give pause to most pursuers….that can be done without having to sacrifice your limited ammo availability to your primary center-fire handgun."

"….two hundred .22 rounds can be squirreled away most anywhere, let alone fifty or a hundred…into a paper cup without having the bottom fall out….something else you have to remember about bullets….lowly .22 included… cause destruction when fired into living things… creating trauma that stops his onslaught is the general idea…five or six of those itty bitty rounds into the forehead or sternum cause repetitive systematic destruction...

….apply…to… bad man….Bone has been fragmented and broken, the body's primary control area has received substantial damage and things begin to shut down and not in some priority status way. The visual ability to target a victim has been either removed or compromised, not to mention the most basic ability to conceive, maintain, and rely upon any real thought process is gone....gone.

The attack breaks. Repetitive-Systematic-Destruction

(Skeptics) …play the trump card…".22's misfire...end of story"….There are no free lunches…when the fight for your life is on. Clear the...round…get back in the fight…nothing different about a misfired .22 and a stove piped 9mm. Both require you to disengage, (act)…and, re-engage.….Many…who don't ever favor the .22LR for defense work….it is never my first choice but…have to remember…amidst the "stopping power" business. Bullet holes of any caliber in the throat end a fight as do puncture wounds to the lungs especially multiple ones. Regardless if they come from a .22, a .45 Auto or a kitchen knife.
"

MY FAVORITE SELECTED READER COMMENTS:

Seabat said.... I obtained a Beretta Jaguar .22 ….years ago…..Mossad used them for jobs back in the 1960's. They were very happy with theirs….

Anonymous said... in the early 80's I was working at a gas station on the grave yard shift and…carried…a Colt Challenger….I got held up….put the entire mag into him. I remember hearing a cop say at the scene "I'm not eating italian for a while, that's a mess". Here I am.

Anonymous said...I retired in 1996 after twenty years in clandestine services seeing some of the tensest moments of the cold war before retiring…Your article is…spot on but…. I carried (primarily handguns) all over the world…the Walther TPH in .22 …popular…among fellow officers along with the .32 PP and Mauser HSc. …

Related:
http://shilohtv.com/?p=3574
https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...mossad-22-lrs/
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:57 AM
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I do not rely upon rimfire for personal protection.

If you come at me while im holding one of my .22's I will empty it while transitioning
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:19 AM
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That's about as much protection as shootin spitballs! Some people!
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jknova View Post
I am sorry to hear about this, however long ago it was. But I will note, you are saying a 12-year-old survived a hit in the chest that exited through the spine.
Yes, he survived. But barely. The year was 1952 or 53. Before I was born of course. Medical services have seen tremendous advances since then however the fact remains the same; a shot through the lungs is still a shot through the lungs. And a shot through the spinal column is still a shot through the spinal column. My father was one of the first on scene and was convinced his brother would not make it.

Remember, this was a near fatal shooting using early 1950s era .22 caliber ammunition. Even that has seen considerable advances since then just like any other ammunition has.

So the long and the short is; would I rely on .22LR as my sole means of personal protection? Absolutely not. But, if that is all I have at the time and someone absolutely insists on inflicting harm on me or a member of my family I promise you I WILL make your life very miserable until I either stop you in a SD situation or you stop me.
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloyiod View Post
That's about as much protection as shootin spitballs! Some people!
You are either very foolish or you've not met anyone who has been shot with a .22LR. Go back through this thread and specifically read my post regarding my now late uncle.

Some people.......
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:32 AM
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.22 lr for self defense

Better than harsh language and maybe better than a stout stick depending on who’s wielding the stick , it does however meet the #1 rule of gunfighting, HAVE A GUN

Issues with .22 lr

1. Relative unreliability, that is .22 are more likely than others to just no go bang
2. Don’t think they meet the magic jello penetration as proposed by the FBI
3. The .22 doesn’t make a very big hole

Real world data seems to show .22 to be good enough except when it’s not.

I think bottom line is a .22 is less than ideal for self-defense but better than nothing. There are a few cases where it might be the best choice but this will be pretty rare.

Carry a gun, don’t sweat the small stuff
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:19 PM
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Not only is a 22 inadequate for self protection.....I am amazed on how many will carry the NAA....thinking they are "armed"....
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustednail View Post
Not only is a 22 inadequate for self protection.....I am amazed on how many will carry the NAA....thinking they are "armed"....
.22 NAA you're certainly armed, maybe not well armed but armed none the less
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:17 PM
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A story from 2012...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blaze
A 92-year-old World War II veteran shot and killed a suspected robber who attempted to break into his Kentucky home Monday morning. Two other men believed to be involved in the botched home invasion are lucky to have escaped with their lives and are now behind bars, WLWT reports.

According to police, 24-year-old Lloyd Maxwell broke into the elderly man’s basement after 2 a.m. and tried to enter the first floor of the home in Verona, Ky. The homeowner, identified as Earl Jones, said he was startled awake by the noise coming from his basement and grabbed his .22 caliber rifle and steadied his aim on the basement door as he heard the sound of footsteps creeping up the basement stairs.

When the intruder kicked in the door, Jones fired one fatal shot into Maxwell’s chest, police said. After firing the single shot, the homeowner called his neighbor, who then contacted the police.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:53 PM
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A 22 LR would not be my first choice.

Many here believe that a 9 mm is the best choice for self defense, based largely on the latest FBI jello tests. I do not agree.

I've never killed a human, but I've shot a number of large dangerous animals, and I hunted big game with a handgun for many years.

I want a weapon with sufficient bullet wt and energy to punch a big bloody hole completely through the biggest, heaviest predator I'm likely to encounter. I want complete penetration through a nasty feral hog, black bear, or range bull.

My choice for consealed carry is a 40 cal Sig loaded with a heavy bullet. Although heavier to carry, I much prefer a 10 mm, or a 357 mag.
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Old 12-28-2017, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloyiod View Post
That's about as much protection as shootin spitballs! Some people!
I don't think you really think that through, did you. Isreal's MOSSAD (you know, the guys who know more about killing TERRORISTS than just about anyone) has used the Beretta 71 .22lr pistol to take out bad guys for many years as well as suppressed Ruger 10-22's.

https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...mossad-22-lrs/

As well as suppressed Ruger MKII's being used by US Navy SEAL's.

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Ruger_MK_II

So call em "spitballs!" all you want. People who have forgotten more about killing than most will ever know disagree with you.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:00 PM
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I think the "Israelis use .22" thing is partially true but largely misunderstood and exaggerated. The .22 does have a place in clandestine operations, but that is not the same as choosing a gun for a gunfight, if you know what I mean. The movie Munich and the book it was based on, Vengeance, are not reliable sources of detail about such things, and a lot of Internet sources about this stuff rely heavily on those as primary sources. I think you'd find a lot more BHPs, CZs and clones of those two things on Israelis who think they may need to win a gun fight.

Hey, guys, did you know that the U.S. military issues .22 rifles? (In super small text, colored light gray on a white background, "For downed pilots to use for survival hunting.") That proves it, .22 is used by the most powerful military in the world. Kind of weird how not a single military anywhere, now or at any point in time, has used it as a standard-issue sidearm cartridge, but hey.

I did read one time about a female Israeli police officer who used a .22. But the ending of the story doesn't fit the narrative: she shot the guy a bunch of times (I think 9 times) and he still killed her with a knife.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:38 PM
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Going back to the OP's original question:

Quote:
Not being a handgun guy I wondered if most folks consider this more a case of the 22LR being the gun 'you have on you at the time', or a valid choice for various reasons?
Yes, I would consider it as part of my overall preparations. No, I would not consider it to be my ONLY choice. However, if that was all I had on me at the time (for whatever reason) then that is what I am going to have to go with and hope for the best.
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