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Old 06-05-2020, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
I agree with this. To the extent that individuals gather together in His name for the purpose of promoting, strengthening, supporting and encouraging each other in an authentic Christian life, therein lies the Church. To the extent that any group, regardless the size, gathers for the same purposes, I would likewise recognize as part of the Christian Church.

It is my personal belief that the Christian Sacraments, conferred and received with the proper disposition, are beneficial to an ongoing life in Christ. Do they or mere membership in any congregation, provide a guarantee of salvation? Absolutely not. Salvation is for those who finish the race. To the contrary, damnation is the "glory" reserved for those who declare victory before crossing the finish line.

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I've actually been struggling with the concept of doing certain things (sacraments??) repetitively as a reminder to keep my focus on Christ and what He did for us. The problem for me, though, is that there are so many different churches with their own sets of "musts." Many folks abroad (and on this site) say things like: "if you don't do it just the way I do it then you aren't saved or you aren't a member of 'the real' church." It's that sort of response to a person's search that turns me off of most churches.

Nevertheless -- I haven't taken communion for awhile. I haven't attended a Bible study for awhile. I haven't observed any of the Holy Days in awhile. So, I do see value in following a routine for the purpose of staying in spiritual communion with Christ and to stay on the "straight and narrow" path.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:27 AM
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=Mississippi Wolf;20359108]If God specifies what he wants he doesn't have to specify everything he doesn't want. He stated very clearly unleavened bread and fruit of the vine for the Lord Supper.
Looks like time to shift gears in new direction and ignore what I said [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

Are you a one cupper too?

Did God, Jesus, Paul or anyone COMMAND unleavened bread the fruit of the vine or any other examples you may see as directive doctrine?

Before I give you a list of other examples found in the NT the COC ignores and cherry picks the examples they like.

Quote:
He didn't have to also say, now Peter don't use lamb and milk, Paul don't use Steak and sweet tea.
But He does give us direct command pro/con on good doctrine ...right

"Where there is no command, there is NO trespass".....right?

Quote:
The same as when he specified singing and the heart. He specifies his desire is for us to sing, and to pluck the strings of the heart , literally in Greek. So he doesn't need to say now listen here I dont want your rock concerts and I don't want your organs and I don't want your lyre and I don't want your harps.
According to GOD....he does in fact have to say don't/do commands...right?


Quote:
It is nonsensical to say if he doesn't specifically forbid something its ok.
Nonsensical or Biblical [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]

-(Romans 4:15) And where there is no command there is no transgression.

-(John 14:15) If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Quote:
He never specifically forbid meth by name but clearly it meets certain criteria that make it sinful
Have you ever read the bible?

All of the apostolic exhortations to remain sober-minded and alert (1 Corinthians 15:34; 1 Thessalonians 5:4-8; 2 Timothy 4:5; 1 Peter 1:13; 4:7; 5:8) are designed to remind us that we must be vigilant against the wiles of the Devil (1 Peter 5:8), who seeks to ensnare us through deception. Sobriety is also important for prayer (1 Peter 4:7), as is obedience to God (Isaiah 1:10-17).

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He made you the instrument. A living sacrifice, a living instrument and you want to trade that in for a dead lifeless instrument? Tragedy. Burn your strange fire like nadab and abihu, and your lifeless fruits of the Ground like Cain. Many have in ages past many will in ages to come should this world stand.
Wonderful opinions...

So where are the commands against toe-tapping and other use of instruments in worship [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
And again more protestant nonsense. Take Romans 4.

Romans 4:14–15 (ESV): 14*For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15*For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

You changed Law to command. Law is not the same as command. A command is a part of a law. Are you saying Christ has no Law? Is that where we are? You're a spiritual anarchist or as one could say a lawless one.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by sloth
I guess protestants rebaptize because they view the previous baptism as being void or they are entering into the "true belief/Church"

I know the AnaBaptist that broke away from the Catholic church did this. They rebaptized because they thought that the pouring method was not valid.

Maybe some of our Protestant brethren can shed some light on this topic.
I can't speak for the 40K denominations but the New Testament English word baptize is the transliteration of the Greek word "baptizo" which according to Thayer's dictionary means
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3) to overwhelm

Those coming out of the Roman Catholic Church during the anabaptist times would have been "sprinkled" rather than dipped. So the anabaptists baptised them "again" by dipping according to the New testament word Baptizo.

According to Scripture there is never a time when someone was baptised prior to believing/having faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Unless you count the baptism that John was doing prior to Christ's death.

As to the word "church". It simply means assembly. Sometimes we use "a called out assembly of believers". The Bible references "local churches' and a "total church or universal church". However Jesus directed John to write to the seven separate local churches in Asia Minor. Each one was in a separate city led by a separate "Angel" or pastor, and yet Jesus Christ directed separate comments to each one and not to an overall mega church. Each church was different and had different activities going on which Jesus condemned. The only common thread that one could glean from Rev 2&3 was that each church was made up of believers. After all that is what a church is.

Belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the Gospel, not Baptism.
Quote:
1Co 15:1* Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;*
1Co 15:2* By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.*
1Co 15:3* For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;*
1Co 15:4* And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:*
Nowhere does the Bible say if you are not baptised you are not saved but it clearly says that is several places about faith or belief.
Quote:
Joh 3:16* For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*
Joh 3:17* For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.*
Joh 3:18* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.*
I would think that anything required for salvation would be mentioned in Scripture as often as "believe" or "faith" is mentioned. and it is not. Not even close. Faith is mentioned many times as being the only thing required for salvation. It has been shown many times on this forum.
Was Paul saved on the Road to Damascus or in Damascus?
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Old 06-05-2020, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Mississippi Wolf View Post
Was Paul saved on the Road to Damascus or in Damascus?

Salvation and receiving "the gift" of the Holy Spirit are two, different things. As in the thief on the cross who was saved without ever having been baptized. Nevertheless, Peter makes it clear that one must be baptized to "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Even Paul was baptized later in his ministry. So baptism is a very good thing. It's an outward expression to an inward faith but (I believe) it's even more than that. I literally believe that a Christian's "gift" is awakened by the Holy Spirit as a result of baptism.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by MississippiWolf
Was Paul saved on the Road to Damascus or in Damascus?
I personally believe that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus, but I know you want to bring out
Quote:
Act 22:16* And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
*And what Ananias said concerning “wash away thy sins.”

OK, I will help you with it.

The Greek word for “wash away” in 22:16 is “apolouo”. The only other time that word is used in the New Testament is
Quote:
1Co 6:11* And such were some of you: but ye are washed (apolouo), but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I Corinthians clearly states that we are washed by the Spirit.

Ye are washed . . . by the Spirit of our God.

And in the phrase "by the Spirit," the Greek word for "by" is "en." Compare the use of "en" in the following passages where it is also used with "the Spirit and with baptism". Notice that all six of these occurrences are in the very verse where both John the Baptist and Jesus distinguish between the two baptisms.

Quote:
Mat 3:11* I indeed baptize you with water . . . . he shall baptize you with(en) the Holy Ghost, and with fire:*
Quote:
Mar 1:8* I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with(en) the Holy Ghost.*
Quote:
Luk 3:16* ... I indeed baptize you with water; . . . he shall baptize you with(en) the Holy Ghost and with fire:*
Quote:
Joh 1:33* . . . but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with (en)the Holy Ghost.
Quote:
Act 1:5* For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with (en)the Holy Ghost not many days hence.*
Quote:
1Co 12:13* For by (en) one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, . . . and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.1 Corinthians 12:13
All six of these passages parallel I Corinthians 6:11 in the Greek. I Corinthians 6:11 directly states that we are "washed...with the Spirit of our God." It is a reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And this is the only other occurrence of this Greek word for "wash" in the entire New Testament. So, we can only conclude based on the two items Ananias was sent to accomplish and the use of this Greek word "wash" that the baptism Paul received in Acts 9 was baptism in the Holy Spirit, not baptism with water.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:14 PM
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[QUOTE=pinkerpv;20359938][quote]Originally posted by MississippiWolf
Was Paul saved on the Road to Damascus or in Damascus?]
I personally believe that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus, but I know you want to bring out [quote]Act 22:16* And now why tarriest thou? arise,
[/quote


So Paul was saved on the Road to Damascus and yet still in his sins. Interesting. So your sins aren't washed in the blood of Jesus in salvation. That comes later or not at all? How Interestingly heretical.
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:57 PM
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[quote=Mississippi Wolf;20359962][QUOTE=pinkerpv;20359938][quote]Originally posted by MississippiWolf
Was Paul saved on the Road to Damascus or in Damascus?]
I personally believe that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus, but I know you want to bring out
Quote:
Act 22:16* And now why tarriest thou? arise,
[/quote


So Paul was saved on the Road to Damascus and yet still in his sins. Interesting. So your sins aren't washed in the blood of Jesus in salvation. That comes later or not at all? How Interestingly heretical.
To be a good poster and not be accused of being a Troll, you should read the posts you are commenting on. If you had read the post you would have understood that Acts 22:16 is speaking of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and not baptized by water. You have been posting about being baptized by water as being required for salvation.

Believing is the way of salvation. Again, I personally believe that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus. But I am not dogmatic about that. It is not important to my salvation. If you want to believe that he was saved after Ananias came and laid hands on him, OK. Regardless, believing is what saves a person, and that is when the Holy Spirit indwells a person. Scripture says the Holy spirit quickens or makes a person spiritually alive when they believe.

Paul commands Christians to be filled with the Spirit.
Quote:
Eph_5:18* And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
So this is something other than the indwelling.

Three times Paul mentions His experience with Christ on the Road to Damascus in Acts 9:1_18, Acts 22:6-16 and 26:12-19. In each time Paul says that Jesus Christ appeared and spoke to him. in Acts 26 Paul give a detail account of what Christ said to him.
Quote:
Act 26:15* And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.*
Act 26:16* But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;*
Act 26:17* Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,*
Act 26:18* To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.*
Act 26:19* Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:*
I believe that after Jesus said those things to him he believed that Jesus Christ is God's son, died on the cross for his sin, was buried and resurrected. Paul already had a head knowledge of Jesus, just didn't believe. I believe he changed his mind. If so he was saved then. If he didn't believe until Ananias came to him and the scales fell off his eyes, OK. Regardless, Paul Believed and was saved.
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Old 06-05-2020, 04:03 PM
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Salvation and receiving "the gift" of the Holy Spirit are two, different things. As in the thief on the cross who was saved without ever having been baptized. Nevertheless, Peter makes it clear that one must be baptized to "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Even Paul was baptized later in his ministry. So baptism is a very good thing. It's an outward expression to an inward faith but (I believe) it's even more than that. I literally believe that a Christian's "gift" is awakened by the Holy Spirit as a result of baptism.
AJ, where in Scripture is Paul baptized later in his ministry? The only three places he talks about his salvation experience and where baptism is mentioned are in Acts 9, Acts 22 and Acts 26. All three are referencing the road to Damascus experience.
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:14 PM
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AJ, where in Scripture is Paul baptized later in his ministry? The only three places he talks about his salvation experience and where baptism is mentioned are in Acts 9, Acts 22 and Acts 26. All three are referencing the road to Damascus experience.
Acts 9:18, "And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized (G907)." (KJV -- omitted by some more spurious versions)

Strong's G907,
a) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
b) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
c) to overwhelm

In light of Peter's admonition ... :

Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized (G907), every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

... I believe Paul was literally baptized after His spiritual awakening. Christ, our Example, was baptized (full immersion).
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Old 06-05-2020, 07:38 PM
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I would think that anything required for salvation would be mentioned in Scripture as often as "believe" or "faith" is mentioned. and it is not. Not even close. Faith is mentioned many times as being the only thing required for salvation. It has been shown many times on this forum.
Faith is mentioned the most in regards to salvation in scripture, but there are also many other things mentioned as well.

1 Peter 3:21 comes right out and says it.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you

In my opinion you can't raise up the Sola Fide verses and discredit all of the other verses.

one has to find a way to make the verses "jive". and in my option the Catholic doctrine of "baptism by desire" makes the scriptures make sense. (also james 2)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_desire)
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:01 PM
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=Mississippi Wolf;20359736]And again more protestant nonsense.
Why don't you go to the Protestants and complain and cry to them

Quote:
Romans 4:14–15 (ESV): 14*For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15*For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
You are getting closer...keep going

Quote:
You changed Law to command.
Nope, I didn't.

Quote:
Law is not the same as command.
Wrong again..

“Commandments” ( according to Vine’s dictionary) <mitzvah>: This is the general Hebrew term for “commandment” and usually refers to the comprehensive list of laws or body of laws given by the Lord.

Quote:
A command is a part of a law.
Do you ever read the bible?

There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey.

(John 13:34) A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.


Quote:
Are you saying Christ has no Law?
No

Quote:
You're a spiritual anarchist or as one could say a lawless one.
Oh look someone doesn't agree to the recently invented COC....quick call them names
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:07 PM
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Dang ... you beat my can balancing record.
I'm telling ya....practice, practice, practice
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mississippi Wolf View Post
And again more protestant nonsense. .
Just remember when you start pointing at people and calling them protestants you have 3 fingers pointing back at you

Prot·es·tant
/ˈprädəstənt/
noun
noun: Protestant; plural noun: Protestants

a member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and follow the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches.

________________________________________________
Church of Christ, any of several conservative Protestant churches, found chiefly in the United States. They are strongest in parts of the Midwest and in the western and southern parts of the country.
(https://www.britannica.com/topic/Church-of-Christ)
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:43 PM
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I believe what happened is the Church met once a week formally. What you are reading in Acts is what today would be called a "study group" or some similar term. Remember, in order for many to attend a church service, it would require a long walk and most of the day.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:53 PM
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I believe what happened is the Church met once a week formally. What you are reading in Acts is what today would be called a "study group" or some similar term. Remember, in order for many to attend a church service, it would require a long walk and most of the day.
Thank you for addressing the op!
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Old 06-08-2020, 09:42 AM
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I was writing when you posted this. Right on!!!
LOL....I stolen it from ya when you weren't looking
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Exactly!

The Churche(s) found in the book of Revelation were all different with different strengths and weaknesses. Good/bad etc.

Ephesus – The Loveless Church (Revelation 2:1-7)
Smyrna — The long Suffering Church (Revelation 2:8-11)
Pergamos — The Compromising Church (Revelation 2:12-17)
Thyatira — The Adulterous Church (Revelation 2:18-29)
Sardis — The Dead Church (Revelation 3:1-6)
Philadelphia — The Faithful Church (Revelation 3:7-13)

None of them were the entirety of "The Church" but rather a small sampling of churche(s) throughout the ancient world.
People make the common mistake saying these were different churches. These were the same Church in different locations.
They had the same Apostolic teaching in each location. These weren’t different denominations.
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Old 06-10-2020, 09:51 AM
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Well we all have opinions
Paul made specific criticisms which were 100% denominational
i.e. different/wrong understanding of what they were taught
So I disagree
No one can prove it, but Paul's letters taken as truth or not, say otherwise
I will stand with Paul
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:27 PM
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People make the common mistake saying these were different churches. These were the same Church in different locations.
They had the same Apostolic teaching in each location. These weren’t different denominations.
I believe you are correct as far as no denominations since it was shortly after the "church" was started. The point Ohio man and others are making is that the word church simply means assembly and a different assembly is a different church. It may believe the same as others do or it may not. The 7 first century churches addressed in Revelations by Christ were in different cities, had different leaders, and had different problems. Jesus Christ addressed each one separately and called it a church. Each time Christ says "to the church in (town x". This is want is meant by a local New Testament Church. Jesus Christ spoke to each one as the head of each one.

Their apostolic teaching had gone arwy for them; that's why Christ spoke to them. To set them straight.
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