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Old 02-11-2020, 11:05 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
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Default Thinking about low water corn.



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I "play" with a couple new things every year.

Least year it was sorgum and amaranth, before that Jerusalem Artichokes etc.

I like playing and I tend towards "useful to have seeds of"
(And I work towards Establishing nearly feral patches.)
I like to read about early American settlement and got to thinking:

People grew corn in very inhospitable places where they could give it very little care (yes, cornmeal type corn) and probably less irrigation.

So, I wondered if anyone has a recommendation or three I could look at.

already got one, 'mandan red' but the seed doesn't seem to be available.

Yes I am aware that'll be smaller, and probably not good to eat freah.
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Old 02-12-2020, 01:25 AM
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Corn takes about 32" of rain, but it can be raised on less if you have sub soil moisture.

I dont think you will get to test "Low Water Corn" in the midwest next yr.

Have you considered combining open polinated corn, with climbing beans, and squash together in a 40' dia patch.
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Old 02-12-2020, 01:58 AM
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Yes, that's not in the cards this year.


Howabout:
Very hearty heratige types....?
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:54 AM
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Painted Mountain Corn. Hands down, it's one of the best "survival" corn you can grow.

This open pollinated corn was obsessively developed over the past 30 years by Dave Christenson from over 1000 native and commercial strains of corn. I remember years ago when he first started out with this project, he said he wanted a corn that will grow where no other corn could. He wanted a true "survivor" corn.

I think he succeeded! It loves abusive weather, drought, cold, heat, and will grow in Siberia or South Africa.

Good for cornmeal, fresh, or roasted. High 13% protein.


https://www.fedcoseeds.com/seeds/pai...field-corn-680

https://www.johnnyseeds.com/vegetabl...eed-2161G.html

Plenty of other good seedsmen carry it as well.


Lots of good info about this flint/field corn:

http://www.roaringforklifestyle.com/...mountain-corn/


https://sustainableseedco.com/produc...=3171935944744
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Dave says when he has no plants down from wind and it is hand harvested he can get 105 bu/acre! Excellent for an OP corn.

"Painted Mountain grows fast even in cold climates where other corns struggle to stay alive in early spring.

It also pollinates and fills out ears during the searing heat of the dry Montana summer.

It takes 90 days to mature as dry grain in my cold mountain climate, about 2-4 weeks ahead of other "90 day" corn.

Some people say the Painted Mountain makes dry grain in only 70 days when taken to a warmer climate.

I have received many reports of yields around 50 bu/acre and often to 60 or 70 bu.acre. This is very good for a very early corn in a stressed location.

I have gotten good production reports from every part of the USA , and many parts of the world from Siberia to South Africa .

Painted Mountain will grow food where many varieties will fail.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:49 AM
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I've grown painted mtn for several years. I irrigate it but the annual precip here is about 8". I don't think it is advertised as a low water need corn, but a cold climate producer. Maybe it would work for you because it has a short growing season. If it matures early maybe it will escape drier fall weather.

It is advertised as open pollinated, but some say it isn't proven to be 100% reliable yet. There is another problem with trying to grow OP corn in corn country is that a neighbors cornfield would mess up your OP corn genetics.

Another dry field corn that works for me is Rays Calisis. Not sure how accurately I spelled that name but you can probably find it in a search. It is also short season open pollinated, and it has a LONG history in fact it is also called heirloom corn.

Dry field corn makes sense for preppers because it is easy to harvest and store. Dry beans compliment the corn diet and also don't require a lot of rigamoral to store.
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I "play" with a couple new things every year.

Least year it was sorgum and amaranth, before that Jerusalem Artichokes etc.

People grew corn in very inhospitable places where they could give it very little care (yes, cornmeal type corn) and probably less irrigation.

So, I wondered if anyone has a recommendation or three I could look at.
How have the amaranth and sorghum & ja done for you? Did you manage to incorporate any of it into your diet?

I grew sorghum last year... only had a small packet from baker creek, but it grew nicely... and... the way that the stalks attracted various wasps was way cool... need a mill or something to make syrup...

You're further south than me, with the additional moisture from the gulf...
Imagine my issue with bottomless white sand and being in a rain shadow where the rains usually get funneled up the appalacian mtns... through atlanta... missing my area.... and sand is dry in the best of times....

Would love to hear of corn that would grow without extra water!

The zea mays japonica variegata that I grew last year... actually did a lot better than you would expect... the small grains... something that I've pretty much had to get used to... whatever corn I've planted...
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:45 AM
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Here is a video about growing corn in the desert. I found it interesting but wish they would have gone into more detail.


It is a type of corn well suited to dry environments but the also plant the seeds extremely deep(like 12 inches), plant it in bunches so it shades itself and plant it in depressions so any rainfall will collect there. I am not sure how much of its ability to survive dry conditions is its type of corn and how much of it is the way it is planted and cared for. Using a regular corn could you use the same techniques to make it more drought resistant?
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:47 PM
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So Nomad, tell us more detail about your amaranth, sorghum, and JAs.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by st0n3 View Post
How have the amaranth and sorghum & ja done for you? Did you manage to incorporate any of it into your diet?
haven't significantly tried

I grew sorghum last year... only had a small packet from baker creek, but it grew nicely... and... the way that the stalks attracted various wasps was way cool... need a mill or something to make syrup...
you can actually boil it. I've made sugar cane syrup starting with cut canes before.

I did what you did, the first year I grow for seed, after that I grow for volume.

I've eaten some.of the JA's. I eat them like I eat turnips, peel and eat. (I eat most vegies except corn and peas raw.)





You're further south than me, with the additional moisture from the gulf...

I'm actually in the ozarks.

Imagine my issue with bottomless white sand and being in a rain shadow where the rains usually get funneled up the appalacian mtns... through atlanta... missing my area.... and sand is dry in the best of times....

Would love to hear of corn that would grow without extra water!

The zea mays japonica variegata that I grew last year... actually did a lot better than you would expect... the small grains... something that I've pretty much had to get used to... whatever corn I've planted...
I have 2 patches of JA now (potatoes do not do well here.)
And a couple tubs of a dried heratige field pea that I need to shuck that I grew for "food" in 2019.

I now have plenty of amaranth and sorgum to grow for volume.
The Sorgum is a dual use grain/sugar type. Mennonite IIRC.

I only intend to use the amaranth for greens and animal feed as it's not worth the work to winnow with cheap rice, beans, wheat etc
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:52 PM
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So Nomad, tell us more detail about your amaranth, sorghum, and JAs.
What?

I'm no expert and there's not much you can't find online.

Bugs go after the amaranth leaves, but they still grow fine.
A few blew over in strong wind (very windy here)
They still produced seed.

Sorgum makes a decent bean trellis. Haven't eaten any of the seeds yet.

Despite articles to the contrary deer seem to love to eat the tops of the JA. Doesn't kill them, but I'd rather they grow vs regrow.
Had to fence them in.


I'm sill "starting", but I've read that the Indians kinda "free farmed" by starting patches of this and that along the way they trThats. Long before gurilla gardening was coined.

That's more or less.my goal, things that need minimal inputs but are there while I dedicate more effort to other plants.

I'll be pruning fruit trees in the next 2 weeks.
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:02 PM
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I have some seeds for this line of corn from Carol Deppe, but I haven't been able to try it yet.

Developed for our area with dry summer weather and to finish drying down before the fall rainy season.

https://www.adaptiveseeds.com/produc...-gold-organic/
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:12 AM
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I've never grown corn specifically for drought resistance since I get plenty of rain in my area. I have researched several other dry land crops:
The millets, sorghums, cassava and to lesser extents, tef, peas and peanuts make up the backbone of subsistence farming in much of Africa including the very dry Sahel/Sahara region. If I lived in the South West deserts as does the Hopi gentleman in the video I'd certainly explore pearl millet and sorghum.


1. "Pennisetum glaucum" aka 'Pearl Millet' Pearl millet is possibly the most tolerant of heat and drought among cereal crops of any consequence. Unlike sorghum, it cannot retreat into dormancy during droughts. It benefits from a nitrogen-fixing bacterium called azospirillum. (Rare for grains)

2. "Sorghum bicolor" aka 'Sorghum' Probably the second most heat and drought tolerant crop after the millets. Sorghum has a very deep root system.

"Eragrostis tef" aka 'Tef' I've posted about tef several times. It's a very, very small seed but it sprouts in an incredibly short time. I've sprouted and eaten it several times.

"Oryza glaberrima" aka 'African Rice'

"Eleusine coracana" aka 'Finger Millet' Finger millet seeds are so small that weevils cannot squeeze inside. Finger millet is second only to barley in it's ability to hydrolyze starches, (malting power).

"Digitaria exilis" aka 'Fonio (Acha)' Perhaps the world's fastest maturing cereal crop.

"Digitaria iburua" aka 'black fonio'

"Brachiaria deflexa" aka 'Guinea Millet'

"Triticum dicoccum" aka 'Emmer' Biblically old strain of wheat.

"Hordeum irregulare" aka 'Irregular Barley'

"Avena abyssinica" aka 'Ethiopian Oats'

"songhai tomo" aka 'Floating Rice' It can grow in water more than 3 meters deep.

"Aristida pungens" aka 'DRINN' A wild grass that is extremely drought resistant.

"Cenchrus biflorus" aka 'KRAM-KRAM' It has possibly 9 percent fat, high protein content—21 percent, more research needed.
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Old 02-13-2020, 07:28 AM
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I've tried a lot if these small grains, in general they are hard for me to harvest by hand, corn is much easier. I bought a hand crank corn sheller so the shelling problem is solved. One small grain that I will probably keep planting is broomcorn sorghum. Most sorghum won't grow this far north, but broomcorn does.

I doubt I will eat it except in very dire circumstances, but my chickens like it. Harvest is just rudimentary. I pull it through a rake to separate the seed from most of the straw.I don't clean it any farther, the chickens are happy to do the final sorting. Seed sellers all sell multi color seed because it is considered ornamental like flowers, but I find that the black color ripens earlier here.
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I "play" with a couple new things every year.

Least year it was sorgum and amaranth, before that Jerusalem Artichokes etc.

I like playing and I tend towards "useful to have seeds of"
(And I work towards Establishing nearly feral patches.)
I like to read about early American settlement and got to thinking:

People grew corn in very inhospitable places where they could give it very little care (yes, cornmeal type corn) and probably less irrigation.

So, I wondered if anyone has a recommendation or three I could look at.

already got one, 'mandan red' but the seed doesn't seem to be available.

Yes I am aware that'll be smaller, and probably not good to eat freah.
Painted mountain corn
https://www.rareseeds.com/store/vege...-mountain-corn

I've been trying to selectively breed it for 10 years.

I plant a 10x10 every year and bitch about the water it costs me..
Makes good tortillas

In your area perhaps copper king would work, it is a mix is of Reid's yellow dent and Bloody butcher
Big corn, 13-14 inch is common
Good luck to you
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Old 02-14-2020, 01:52 AM
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I haven't read all the replies but i've been looking at a corn called Bronze Orange Corn.

The reviews seem to be pretty good. Supposedly drought tolerant also.

From Baker Creek seeds who sell a lot of rare seeds hense their domain name rareseeds.com. Their seeds are a little high but most of their seeds are rare so. Anyway for 75 seeds you'll pay 4 bucks. I have been thinking of getting these for my small backyard and growing them to make flour.

https://www.rareseeds.com/store/vege...ze-orange-corn

"A super high-protein dent corn with phenomenal flavor and blazing color! Bronze orange was shown to contain 50 percent more protein than standard GMO corn samples in a study conducted by Baker Creek. The beta carotene in orange-colored corn has recently been recognized as a tool to fight nutrient deficiency-related childhood blindness and vision. Dwarf stalks are only 3 ½ feet high. Despite its small stature, it produces up to 5 ears per stalk! Makes choice roasting ears at the milk stage (although not exactly a sweet corn), or allow the burnt-orange kernels to develop completely for a superior flour type. Originally introduced by Dr. Alan Kapuler in the 1980s."
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:33 AM
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I'm not being critical here, but for those who are recommending hybrid seed, what about sustainability. If you plant seeds you save from the previous years crop you will grow a dukes mixture of the two or more parents of the cross. Not good.

If you buy 10# of the hybrid seed and plan to use it over many years be aware that seed looses it's ability to sprout over time. Even if it is kept frozen it eventually dies. And if TEOTWAWKI results in a kaput grid you wont be keeping your seed frozen anymore.
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
You're further south than me, with the additional moisture from the gulf...
Quote:
I'm actually in the ozarks.
I wish that your profile reflected this....
Anytime I try to discuss growing stuff... I always check to see where the OP is gardening (whether in this forum or any other) It makes a huge difference in the advice that I'm going to offer.

When I read "gulf coast", I think lower alabama/florida panhandle... and make statements relative to those conditions.

The Ozarks get pretty good rain... comparatively speaking... And... yes, I know about that cracked clay in August.... but you have a nice long spring... with the rains associated with that...

Spring here now... with frost until the middle of April.... summer starts soon after... Interesting gardening in that....

Gardening in the clay.... gonna be different plants thriving in that...

Sun chokes (ja), should be a good choice... If you ever get a deer fence!

Not sure what kind of food you can grow without fencing...

Have you considered something like hardy orange or osage orange as organic fencing?

Neither of them grow well enough in my sand to work.... I seem to need to create a garden before I can even get them to grow!

Working now on rooting roses for planting next to the existing deer fence...

Have you tried any of the chenopodium species?
Most people are familiar with chenopodium album, I have a better variety, chenopodium giganteum... But... I have to fence it in.... to prevent the deer from killing it....

Here's a neat post from tumblr:

Quote:

So I just learned something that ****es me off.
Y’know quinoa? The ~magical~ health food that has become so popular in the US that a centuries-long tradition of local, sustainable, multi-crop farming is being uprooted to mass-produce it for the global market? Potentially affecting food stability and definitely effecting environmental stability across the region?

Ok, cool.

Y’know Lamb’s Quarter? A common weed throughout the continental US, tolerant of a wide variety of soil conditions including the nutrient-poor and compacted soils common in cities, to the point where it thrives in empty lots?

These plants are close relatives, and produce extremely similar seeds. Lamb’s quarter could easily be grown across the US, in people’s backyard and community gardens, as a low-cost and local alternative to quinoa with no sketchy geopolitical impacts. You literally don’t have to nurture it at all, it’s a ******* weed, it’ll be fine. Put it where your lawn was, it’ll probably grow better than the grass did. AND you can eat the leaves - they taste almost exactly like spinach.

This just… drives home, again, that a huge part of the appeal of “superfoods” is the sense of the exotic. For whatever nutritional benefits quinoa does have, the marketing strategy is still driven by an undercurrent of orientalism. You too could eat this food, grown laboriously by farmers in the remote Andes mountains! You too could grow strong on the staple crop that has sustained them for centuries! And, y’know, destroy that stable food system in the process. Or you could eat this near-identical plant you found in your backyard.
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:54 PM
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I have fences around most of my raised beds, but started the JA's in a new area.if read furthering need to be fenced.
They do.
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:41 PM
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Yup, lambs quarter is a common weed, grandma used to use it like spinach. We cook some every once in awhile. Didn't know it was a quinoa relative. Maybe I'll try to harvest some LQ seed some time.
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Old 02-15-2020, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I have fences around most of my raised beds, but started the JA's in a new area.
I run deer fencing around several acres at a time.... this gives me room to expand.

I like to run the deer fence through the brush line... Deer like open areas... when they find their paths fenced off... they might run into the fence a couple times, but with minor repairs they soon learn to avoid the area.

In my area... I've seen where people have gone down the fence spraying poison... this seems counter productive.... If the deer can see the fence... they can jump it!

So... I purchase several 100 foot rolls of 6 ft welded wire and run it through the thicket... not cutting anything.

I've also employed this technique in town when gardening for other people.... the only time this doesn't work... is when it is necessary to run the fence across an open area.... in those wide open areas... I have to run an additional several ft of wire across the top.... to get the fence high enough to prevent jumping.... much easier just to run the fence through the thicket.

I can't really make out how much garden you have fenced in.... but it doesn't sound like enough.
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