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Old 08-04-2020, 03:23 PM
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ActionJackson ActionJackson is offline
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Lots of good conversation!!! Sometimes I get so busy sharing my thoughts that I don't take the time to soak in the thoughts of others. That's selfish of me. I apologize. I do scan quickly most of the time but sometimes it's nice to read every letter, sentence, and paragraph.

Anyway, speaking of loving everyone. I do believe we're called to love our neighbors but, like one of you mentioned, sometimes that must take the form of "tough love." Coddling bad behavior isn't love at all ... it's "enabling" bad behavior. That's not good for the person being coddled or for those who surround that person.

God is LOVE and yet He has promised to cast boat loads of people into the "lake of fire." What sort of love is that? It's about the toughest form of love I can think of. I guess He loved these reprobate, unprincipled, anti-Christ folks enough put them out of their own misery?!
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Old 08-04-2020, 05:58 PM
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I also have a hard time loving my enemies. At night when I pray for all the good people in my life and the many blessings I have received I tell God you conquered the devil once so please conquer the devil in these non believers. Take the wickedness out of them. I pray but still struggle with what is happening in the country.
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:13 PM
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Bunny theologically......the Devil and Demon exist to make lay people more faithful and devout to God.

One term that is thrown about so loosely these days in the Christian Faith is "Spiritual Warfare" for many it has a very loose meaning but for the devout there is an entire doctrine on it. Just look up Spiritual Warfare, Chad Ripperger....you will see what I mean.

Jesus is all loving when you live in union with him......Jesus is "just" or practices justice when you are not. It's the whole Heaven and Hell thing and many Psalms have been written about it.

I also do not love my enemies....but I do pray for them every single night without fail....the enemies discussed in these threads are the "blinded" ones living in union with Satan....some will wake up in their lifetime...given a sufficient amount of Alm Giving and for others.....its an eternal trip on the down escalator.

Prudence and Justice are also virtues and part of our faith...there are only 62 more to look at.

For some of us there will come a time to exercise Justice....and really that is all that it is.

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Old 08-04-2020, 06:20 PM
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I have learned to love my enemies, from a distance with the 12g racked and ready.

If my enemy is hungry, thirsty, or shot, then I will render aid. I will feed him, give him water, and treat his wounds. But I will warn him in the process to stay down, or he might get shot again.
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:28 PM
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Sounds about right!
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:32 PM
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I think the reason Jack Swilling cannot answer my question is because he is confusing our personal enemies from our political enemies.

I believe the commands of Jesus apply to our personal enemies. Centuries after the resurrection, Constantine the Great received a message 'by this sign conquer' (by killing his political enemies). Then there was the glorious Crusades, etc.
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Old 08-04-2020, 07:47 PM
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No, wrong

Since I believe that Jesus is God incarnate I will endeavour to follow his direct unambiguous order

It is hard to do
Easier said than done

But that is the mark if you are a member of The Body of Christ
I wiil not substitute my opinion where there is zero room for argument

Lot of rationalization.....sadly

I will aim for the mark
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
I will aim for the mark
Oh, that's wonderful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
how do you suppose the love of our enemies in this case should be manifested?
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:05 PM
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Luke 23:34 et seq

The Crucifixion
…34Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Hebrews 12:12 et seq

God Disciplines His Sons
…12Therefore strengthen your limp hands and weak knees. 13Make straight paths for your feet, so that the lame will not be debilitated, but rather healed. 14Pursue peace with all men, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.…

You bore me Peter Enema
Limp-wristed and weak-kneed you post long-winded drivel

Thinking yourself deep and thoughtful
Pathetic

You sow seeds of dissension among the Saints

Steer clear of me and I will do the same as to you
Your idiotic questions to me will continued to be ignored
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Old 08-05-2020, 07:48 AM
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Problems in Paradise?
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Old 08-05-2020, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Batko10 View Post
That was good one!!! LOL
Where there is no unity there is only division. What do you expect from non-denominationals when they are left alone with them(wonderful)selves?

They squeal that us Orthodox are divisive but at our worse we are not divisive among the Orthodox, no? But what do they do when they are among other de-nominationals? They are divided as oil and water. And of course they do not see this as being THE PROBLEM in America.

Traditional Church people will at least turn towards their Church where there is little to no division. But them? Turn on each other because none of them think alike.

And now that I am here they will turn against the Big Bad Wolf again. That in my book is peace making, I am a peace maker between them.
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Old 08-05-2020, 11:16 AM
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As to the sword canard

Matthew 26:51 et seq

The Betrayal of Jesus
…51At this, one of Jesus’ companions drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. 52“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him. “For all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?…

Jesus would never contadict himself
Taking Scripture out of the Bible as a whole leads to nonsense

Jesus made it simple and yet fools rationalize crystal clear Orders

Matthew 5:44 et seq

Love Your Enemies
…44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same?…

Luke 10:26 et seq

The Parable of the Good Samaritan
…26“What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you read it?” 27He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus said. “Do this and you will live.”…
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Old 08-05-2020, 11:17 AM
cat_1978 cat_1978 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
Interesting read: https://classroom.synonym.com/differ...ches-7780.html



We're also all aware of the fact that there are some differences between the two "first and only" churches (Catholic vs. Orthodox).

Yup ... involve men in anything and squabbles will occur and evolve.
For people that KNOW history these links can be understood in the right context. However, we are talking here (as a second RELATED topic) about the extreme divisiveness of the non-denominationals. It is one thing to be part of a traditional Church and another thing to be part of NOTHING or at best of "One man church".

Walking in Christ might be difficult for all Christians but derailing from that walk in the non-denominational circles is clear since America is finally burning due to this divisiveness. Loss of Church, loss of faith and finally loss of God's Law in ones life. Next: join Satan's Army.
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Old 08-05-2020, 01:57 PM
PurpleKitty PurpleKitty is online now
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Henry, was that the book that said women got "infected" by demons when they were raped? I threw the book out after that.

Do I believe we do battle? Yes. Jesus won the war. We are just soldiers...the concept of ongoing battle is real and valid. But I just could not get behind the book after that.

I will say I never have opposition like I do when I am doing evangelism and walking closer to Jesus - huge obstacles.

An example... one morning I had done my prayer time and Bible Study. I call it "God Time". I was listening to some good Christian music. Crowder, "Run Devil Run" and my husband had a grand mal seizure.

Needless to say that took me aback.
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Old 08-05-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
As to the sword canard ...Matthew 26:51 et seq
Mat 26:51. Luke 22:36. Not the same principle.

There is no canard. In Mat 26:51, Jesus is NOT issuing a general command but making a statement in not resisting those who have come to arrest him. In Luke 22:36, Jesus is issuing a clear and general command to his apostles, to buy a sword for their defense (not his).

Also, I submit there is a HUGE difference between using violence to achieve political ends from self defense.

Again, the beginning of Luke 22:36 recognizes 'now is different.' Discernment: having the wisdom to know when to apply what principle. Jesus said to give unto Caesar's what is Caesar's. He did not say to remain uninvolved in political matters. Hence this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
IF we are going to broach politics, we ought to follow the role model (At the set time that I appoint I will judge with equity. Psalm 75:2 (ESV)). That is, begin with judgment on the political issue.
  • Public Policy A - Support
  • Public Policy B - Oppose
  • Public Policy C - Oppose
Dove tails nicely with the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_John View Post
Liberals, BLM, ANTIFA: are allowing our country to come apart at the seams, by accepting and not condemning all the violent riots and crime from the mob. I despise everything they stand for. They are unGodly, tools of satan, in my opinion.
I guess I'm trying to separate the understandable emotional turmoil Big_John has from the righteousness of his political stand, which flows from his grounding in walking with the Lord. NOTE: Big_John is not questioning the validity of his opinion.
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Old 08-09-2020, 03:09 PM
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Well loving does not mean endorsing.

I read my way though the Bible every day and am currently in Jeremiah and God has some pretty harsh things to say about those who tolerated the baal worship, etc. The king at the time, Manesseh, did all sorts of pagan worship and even engaged in human sacrifice of his small children. God found that abhorrent and anyone who tolerated that was also damned.

Some things are really that bad. Look at the whole gay thing, it was "Don't persecute them for who they love" now it is "Minor attraction is just another expression of sexuality and the small kids are up for it anyway". It is a sliding scale that gets worse the more you tolerate.

Some things are VERY offensive to God, mainly putting anything, our own lusts, money, acclaim, etc. before seeking Him. That is not "hate" if I say it.
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:28 PM
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The contrast with Sloth is profound! From what I've learned about the EOC theology from Cat and Batko, I actually agree less with Sloth's RCC theology. Yet, there is NEVER even a hint of acrimony from him. His humility and grace show him to be a true man of God.
Thanks Pete. I'm not sure how I feel about being called a "man of God", we all have our faults. I just trying to do the best I can do and follow what the church teaches.

It is hard not to like the Eastern Orthodox Church, and usually when they dialogue with others, I take their theological position on things.

But the truth is what it is. It stands for itself. I just try to be open to it and I try not to limit my resources.
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:06 AM
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OK, back to TOPIC. It is indeed something I dont know what I shall do. I believe in helping/protecting the innocent folks. I state now I will have protection on my person at all times. This scripture comes to mind along the topic realms:

Romans 12:17-19 NKJV

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.


What do you reckon the part in RED means. Hmmm, give place to wrath. To me, this means that if I dont take it upon myself to PUNISH them that need it, God is still on the throne and completely able to handle it. And, He can do it in a way that has perfect timing/results, for He knows better than I.
Now, again, I am not saying it is wrong to defend oneself. What I am saying is that killing should be a last consideration, as the person will be FOREVER GONE, never able to REPENT. I TRUST God to let me know if/when someone needs to go. Some think God is ruthless, but it is just the opposite. He has created us, in His image, and made a way for us to have ETERNAL LIFE. I am reminded of the movie PAUL, where Luke tells the Christians being readied for the Lions in the arena to not be afraid, it will only hurt for a little while, and after that no suffering, EVER AGAIN. God has made this promise to ANYONE that believes and REPENTS, and after death, unknown to the Catholics, its too late.
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by hawgy54 View Post
Romans 12:17-19 NKJV

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.


What do you reckon the part in RED means. Hmmm, give place to wrath.
Excellent post that inspired 2 ideas.

(1). I read several translations on this. None were fully satisfying but I think the best is from NLT
Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the Scriptures say,
“I will take revenge;
I will pay them back,”
says the Lord.

So, to directly answer your question, what does the part in red mean? It means 'Leave that to the righteous anger of God.'

Because of this verse and the superheroes who go by the name Avengers, I delved into what vengeance, revenge and avenge mean. First, I learned it is impossible to avenge oneself, by definition. To avenge means to get even for others. By definition, if one is seeking to get even for himself, that is revenge and is strictly prohibited by the New Testament as you point out with this verse.

Now onto vengeance. My ex-wife once said to me what was a popular parenting gimmick at the time. She said not to spank the kids when I was angry. I thought that was the stupidest thing I ever heard! Kids need to learn they are not the only one with emotions! They also need to know there is a risk - they bear the burden of - if they act in a way that rouses their father's anger. Vengeance, therefore, is not merely dispassionately doling out punishment. It is emphatically, passionately and personally (that is, on a personal level) paying someone back for what they did wrong.

And due to this zeal, the risk with revenge is going beyond, not just getting even but paying back the injury with interest. Meaning revenge runs the risk of not getting justice but causing more injustice.

In this light, it is interesting that the NLT translates this verse as God taking revenge. The implication is that the sin that is so enraged you, secondarily applies to you. Their sin is first and foremost against God, who in his infinite wisdom will impose a perfect justice.

And this passionate zeal of imposing punishment aspect of vengeance is what so motivates me not to sin. It is not that I will be paid back in some kind of intellectual scales of balance. It is knowing that I acted to personally hurt (or disappoint) my Creator. So, I heard good punishment is doled out with tears. The Bible uses the term, grieve the Holy Spirit. Tough stuff.
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawgy54 View Post
OK, back to TOPIC. It is indeed something I dont know what I shall do. I believe in helping/protecting the innocent folks. I state now I will have protection on my person at all times. This scripture comes to mind along the topic realms:

Romans 12:17-19 NKJV

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.


What do you reckon the part in RED means.
Inspiration point 2

(2). This angle of analysis does not hit square on Big John's angst in the OP. I think many religious people fail to take in the totality of the dilemma and only pursue the religious aspect of it.

Big John spoke about his frustration with people who are political activists. I've been in positions of authority over others as a 2nd level manager. The actions of these people are not all or just personal. Therefore, we cannot act only on the personal or religious basis dictated to by Scripture.

An example is at work, I had to deal with an embarrassing situation were an employee was guilty of what I called 'dress code violation.' He lost a lot of weight and his pants fell down too far (and he did not wear underwear). The company lawyer characterized this as sexual harassment as we had many women in the department. I could not act merely on my personal recognizance but company policy.

Big John has to deal with the political activists not as though, being a Christian, he is merely a political facilitator. He has to deal with these political activists on the basis that he is ALSO a political participant.
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