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Old 05-24-2020, 03:27 PM
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I didnt mean worship. I mean daily gathering
Like the comunnal First Church that was run by Jews and followed the law ?????
No denomination does that
Since we know that for a fact
What is the point ?????
To answer the question, probably within a few years/decades of the Original Church at some point after they allowed Gentiles to join
What does it matter the exact date ??????
Is it not enough to know that every stinking denomination = fail compared to the Original Church in this context
I am aware of zero historical evidence that would provide an exact date
No the early church by and large Gentiles as well met daily. Maybe not the entire church but were around each other at least in small groups daily. Then it somewhat became a 2 times a week thing through the ages somewhere. While its clear Sunday is particularly special for the taking of communion and worship. ( which the protestants denied and destroyed with their taking quarterly and monthly or whatever they do) They spent time together daily.
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:51 PM
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Not getting into that discussion here
Sorry, was it a rhetorical question you were asking?

I only put first century Catholic Bishops up as an example. This history we are talking about only comes down to us from the Catholic Church. These Bishops knew John Himself.

It is all Catholic history that far back, best to read the Church Fathers for historical questions.

The Lords Day is Sunday, which is the Apostolic adjustment I would say for a whole community gathering for Mass. But I would say Mass was still celebrated daily nonetheless more locally, possibly still in nominated homes.

Catholics are still all obligated to go to Mass every Sunday, but Mass is available every day of the week for all Catholics.
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:44 PM
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Catholics have had Mass daily for 2000 years.
That would be a miracle
Jesus was crucified less than two thousand years ago
So I never got that fun fact at Catechism

It can be reasonably argued that the Catholic Church is the oldest denomination

But the Original Church kept the Sabbath not the later observed Lord's day aka Sunday

Why make stuff up ?????
Why take something simple and beyond dispute and conflate it with denominational traditions ?????
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:55 PM
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... But the Original Church kept the Sabbath not the later observed Lord's day aka Sunday ...
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet (Revelation 1:10)
It is the Catholic Church's understanding of her own Scripture that in this instance John is referring to Sunday.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:07 PM
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That would be a miracle
Jesus was crucified less than two thousand years ago
So I never got that fun fact at Catechism

It can be reasonably argued that the Catholic Church is the oldest denomination

But the Original Church kept the Sabbath not the later observed Lord's day aka Sunday

Why make stuff up ?????
Why take something simple and beyond dispute and conflate it with denominational traditions ?????
Well look at this Apostolic Father and appointed Bishop who lived in the first century knew at lease one Apostle.

“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.” Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

Gathering on Sunday was an Apostolic practice and it’s in scripture itself.

The Catholic Church isn’t a denomination it is the Original One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
There were no denominations back then. There were sects, but these were called heretics.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:18 PM
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John the Elder wrote revelation about 96 AD
That there is something called the Lord's Day in this context does not reference it being Mass or Worship.
Clearly as denominations were created, after the Original Church, there was general agreement about Sunday Church. That is a fact. We can all agree on that.
Jesus held the Last Supper on the Sabbath. All the Apostles were Jews who kept the Sabbath.
The best one can say, in support of this notion, is that at some point post the Original Church, denominations began to have Sunday service or mass
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:20 PM
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People forget the Jews persecuted the Christians and prevented them from gathering with them on the sabbath. The Jews also went on and denied Christ’s Resurrection. The Apostles affirmed the Resurrection by gathering on the Lord’s Day, Sunday.
So gathering on the Sabbath became a denial of the Resurrection.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:23 PM
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The Roman Catholic church is a denomination by definition
Trying to make it up after the fact, the Catholic Church claimed to be related to the Original Church which was run by Jews, observed the Law and The Sabbath, held all possession of its members for the communal benefit of all Christians
Catholic Church has zero resemblance to the Original Church
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:34 PM
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The Roman Catholic church is a denomination by definition
Trying to make it up after the fact, the Catholic Church claimed to be related to the Original Church which was run by Jews, observed the Law and The Sabbath, held all possession of its members for the communal benefit of all Christians
Catholic Church has zero resemblance to the Original Church
Early Church history is the Catholic Church in its infancy, it is Apostolic which means it comes from the Apostles.
The New Testament writings and the writings of the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers only come down to us by the Catholic Church.

Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome to be centre of the Church administration throughout the world.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:37 PM
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Not getting into that discussion here
Sorry, was it a rhetorical question you were asking?

I only put first century Catholic Bishops up as an example. This history we are talking about only comes down to us from the Catholic Church. These Bishops knew John Himself.

It is all Catholic history that far back, best to read the Church Fathers for historical questions.

The Lords Day is Sunday, which is the Apostolic adjustment I would say for a whole community gathering for Mass. But I would say Mass was still celebrated daily nonetheless more locally, possibly still in nominated homes.

Catholics are still all obligated to go to Mass every Sunday, but Mass is available every day of the week for all Catholics.
No catholicism isn't even as old as Orthodoxy much less Peter, James, and John.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:44 PM
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Not even the Orthodox Church believes it is older than the Catholic Church
They were in communion for approximately 1,000 years with the Orthodox Churh agreeing that the Bishop in Rome was the number one bishop.
So that is wrong. Both denominations are as old as denominations get, there is that, but neither bears any relation to the Original Church.
None of the Apostles wore stupid outfits and idiotic hats and an endless number of other "stuff" that they made up.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:44 PM
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No catholicism isn't even as old as Orthodoxy much less Peter, James, and John.
How could this be written in Church Council at this time then?

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors.” Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:49 PM
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No catholicism isn't even as old as Orthodoxy much less Peter, James, and John.
How could this be written in Church Council at this time then?

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors.” Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).
400 years after the established Church? You should read the texts before 200 then read the text after. Theres a vast chasm of thought that was crossed in terms of creating a monarchal system. Jerome spells it out quite clearly as to how and why this departure from the apostolic teachinh happened. In all honesty its happeninh makes perfect sense when the church was under such fire from heretics like the gnostics and followers of Marcion and others and its intention wasn't even an official office but a delegation to a wiser older man to prevent heresies and divisions among the church. However over time it morphed into a monarchy and eventually a papa.

Jerome (347-420): A presbyter, therefore, is the same as a bishop, and before dissensions were introduced into religion by the instigation of the devil, and it was said among the peoples, ‘I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, and I of Cephas,’ Churches were governed by a common council of presbyters; afterwards, when everyone thought that those whom he had baptised were his own, and not Christ’s, it was decreed in the whole world that one chosen out of the presbyters should be placed over the rest, and to whom all care of the Church should belong, that the seeds of schisms might be plucked up. Whosoever thinks that there is no proof from Scripture, but that this is my opinion, that a presbyter and bishop are the same, and that one is a title of age, the other of office, let him read the words of the apostle to the Philippians, saying, ‘Paul and Timotheus, servants of Christ to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi with the bishops and deacons.’
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:55 PM
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Why are you so hung up on bishops, deacons and presbyters ?????
If you are not doing what the Original Church did except being hung up on this non-issue, you are missing the important attributes of the Original Church
Each chuch had elders
Call them what you will
You would be better served by starting to keep the Sabbath if being Original is so important to you
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:14 PM
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Why are you so hung up on bishops, deacons and presbyters ?????
If you are not doing what the Original Church did except being hung up on this non-issue, you are missing the important attributes of the Original Church
Each chuch had elders
Call them what you will
You would be better served by starting to keep the Sabbath if being Original is so important to you
I do exactly as the early church did. I think changing the organizational design of the church that God put in place is a rather big deal. The church did not observe the Sabbath.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:17 PM
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Not even the Orthodox Church believes it is older than the Catholic Church
They were in communion for approximately 1,000 years with the Orthodox Churh agreeing that the Bishop in Rome was the number one bishop.
So that is wrong. Both denominations are as old as denominations get, there is that, but neither bears any relation to the Original Church.
None of the Apostles wore stupid outfits and idiotic hats and an endless number of other "stuff" that they made up.
Exactly they were united and then the Roman bishop created a new religion where he is the emperor. Thereby making Orthodoxy older.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Why are you so hung up on bishops, deacons and presbyters ?????
If you are not doing what the Original Church did except being hung up on this non-issue, you are missing the important attributes of the Original Church
Each chuch had elders
Call them what you will
You would be better served by starting to keep the Sabbath if being Original is so important to you
The Apostles ordained bishops, deacons and presbyters, that is original Apostolic church governance.

The Apostles were kicked out of the temple by the Jews and could no longer celebrate the Sabbath, because Jews denied Christ and the Resurrection.

So the Apostles gathered on the Lords day, as an affirmation of the Resurrection. You can deny Christ and the Resurrection by gathering on the Jewish Sabbath, but the original apostles couldn’t do it.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
... But the Original Church kept the Sabbath not the later observed Lord's day aka Sunday

Why make stuff up ?????
Why take something simple and beyond dispute and conflate it with denominational traditions ?????
How are you defining the term “Original Church”? Scripture is the product of an already existing Church Tradition, and as such attests to that Tradition:
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Corinthians 11:2)

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thessalonian 2:15)
The New Testament (original) Church most definitely celebrated the Lord’s Day on Sunday. There certainly were no Jewish Temple celebrations post A.D. 70 due to it having been razed by the Romans.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:34 PM
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Exactly they were united and then the Roman bishop created a new religion where he is the emperor. Thereby making Orthodoxy older.
This is nonsense.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:40 PM
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Colossians 2:14–15 (KJV 1900): 14*Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15*And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Hebrews 8:7–13 (KJV 1900): For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8*For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9*Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10*For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11*And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12*For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13*In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old

Hebrews 9:1–2 (KJV 1900): Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2*For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Hebrews 10:1–4 (KJV 1900): For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2*For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3*But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4*For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
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