Should states just go bankrupt...seems like capitalism has some cracks in it - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Financial Forum Economics and Precious Metals

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-23-2020, 05:06 PM
slackercruster's Avatar
slackercruster slackercruster is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Born in L.A. - NYC is 2nd home - Rustbelt is home base
Posts: 2,190
Thanks: 2,898
Thanked 4,357 Times in 1,384 Posts
Default Should states just go bankrupt...seems like capitalism has some cracks in it



Advertise Here

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...are-bankruptcy

If so, would be bad for some retirees with state pensions and state municipal bonds.

Seems like capitalism has some cracks in it.
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-23-2020, 05:26 PM
William Ashley's Avatar
William Ashley William Ashley is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 744
Thanks: 45
Thanked 861 Times in 374 Posts
Default

You understand that businesses are incorporations of the states and federal governmet right?


Learn what corporation means, learn what limited means, learn what partnership means.

States are a civil society. They can't go bankrupt. They can loose their credit rating though.

States cannot legally go into receivorship.
" although municipalities and cities and such can go bankrupt under the Federal bankruptcy code, states are not included under Chapter 9."


https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/431/1/
Quick reply to this message
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to William Ashley For This Useful Post:
Old 04-23-2020, 08:36 PM
phil74501 phil74501 is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 352
Thanks: 17
Thanked 737 Times in 252 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Ashley View Post
You understand that businesses are incorporations of the states and federal governmet right?


Learn what corporation means, learn what limited means, learn what partnership means.

States are a civil society. They can't go bankrupt. They can loose their credit rating though.

States cannot legally go into receivorship.
" although municipalities and cities and such can go bankrupt under the Federal bankruptcy code, states are not included under Chapter 9."


https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/431/1/
This is supposed to be why municipal bonds are such a good investment...you don't have to worry about losing your money. States/Cities have to pay their bills, even if it means raising taxes through the roof to pay them.

I know what McConnell said, but unless the US Supreme Court has changed their minds of late, his wish isn't possible.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to phil74501 For This Useful Post:
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-23-2020, 09:24 PM
rriley rriley is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,281
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,294 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Ashley View Post
You understand that businesses are incorporations of the states and federal governmet right?


Learn what corporation means, learn what limited means, learn what partnership means.

States are a civil society. They can't go bankrupt. They can loose their credit rating though.

States cannot legally go into receivorship.
" although municipalities and cities and such can go bankrupt under the Federal bankruptcy code, states are not included under Chapter 9."

Bankruptcy is a legal route in which debts can be erased. Laws permit bankruptcy for most entities but not for states although some legal scholars argue that it could be applied to states. As a practical matter if a state attempted to declare bankruptcy the state's ability to do so would be the subject of a series of lawsuits and could certainly work its way to the Supreme Court over many years.

As a practical matter a state could simply stop paying its bills and negotiate reductions in their indebtedness or even elimination of debt and any remaining indebtedness could be eliminated by passing additional taxes, i.e. gas tax, property taxes, etc.

So, yes and no; a state could go bankrupt, probably.
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-24-2020, 02:37 PM
Toyboy Toyboy is offline
Midwest Born
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 633
Thanks: 162
Thanked 810 Times in 363 Posts
Default

the Federal Government was never set up to be a guarantor of funds for citizens, corps or states. while i agree in principle states cannot seek bankruptcy protections, the market has a way of dealing with it. the curious thing here is that this was caused by the Federal Government. Honestly, they don't have the authority to shut down the Country either. no good answers here.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Toyboy For This Useful Post:
Old 04-24-2020, 07:37 PM
A_SonofLiberty's Avatar
A_SonofLiberty A_SonofLiberty is offline
Live Free or Die
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Live Free or Die
Posts: 3,719
Thanks: 14,725
Thanked 13,119 Times in 3,039 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackercruster View Post
Seems like capitalism has some cracks in it.
We haven't been capitalist since 1913 or so. Let's go back and give it a real try before you blame capitalism.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to A_SonofLiberty For This Useful Post:
Old 04-25-2020, 01:41 AM
clingmansdome clingmansdome is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 344
Thanks: 76
Thanked 453 Times in 199 Posts
Default

When I read Scalia's book, he was fairly consistent in the belief that if the feds pass a law, then the law is valid. Maybe Mitch is thinking about a system that would allow a state's assets to be auctioned off to the highest, or most politically connected, bidder. States have already sold parts of their infrastructure to sovereign wealth funds which recoup their investment by, for example, charging tolls to use a highway or taking a cut of fees associated with water and sewer services. Imagine if Coca Cola bought a state capitol building and then rebranded it "The Coca Cola State Capitol Building." Or maybe a state college gets sold to the Saudis and they change the name of football team so instead of being called the "Oklahoma Sooners," it becomes the "Oklahoma Wahhabi Islamic Warriors."
States might not be able to file bankruptcy, but they can sell off assets. If Mitch said it can happen, then it can happen, in one form or another.
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2020, 02:12 AM
maintenanceguy's Avatar
maintenanceguy maintenanceguy is online now
statists' be statin'
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep South...Jersey.
Posts: 3,182
Thanks: 2,190
Thanked 11,277 Times in 2,450 Posts
Default

Should states just go bankrupt...seems like capitalism has some cracks in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackercruster View Post
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...are-bankruptcy

If so, would be bad for some retirees with state pensions and state municipal bonds.

Seems like capitalism has some cracks in it.
The way states spend money is not capitalism. If it was capitalism, the consumer would decide if they were going to spend their hard-earned money on things like license plates, building permits, business licensing fees, traffic tickets. And, if they did want these things enough to voluntarily pay for them, there would be other providers of these things.

The government pension system should fail and go away. When states take money from the general public to give it to its own employees during retirement, it's an abuse of power. If the pension system worked as promised and the fund was self sufficient it would be similar to private pension or 401K but none of the government pensions work that way. They all rely on the government forcing the masses to fund a government employee's retirement instead of funding their own.

Municipal bonds are a result of municipal governments spending money they took from us irresponsibly. If municipalities didn't spend more than they brought in in revenue, They wouldn't need to borrow in the form of bonds. And, selling bonds not only kicks the financial can down the road, it adds interest payments to the municipal debt making the municipality even less solvent in the future.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to maintenanceguy For This Useful Post:
Old 04-25-2020, 05:27 AM
Jdog67's Avatar
Jdog67 Jdog67 is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Tampa Bay area, Florida
Posts: 3,995
Thanks: 835
Thanked 16,054 Times in 3,212 Posts
Default

States like Illinois that just spent and spent and spent on Democrat priorities shouldn't be bailed out by states that managed its budget responsibly. They are going to have to stop giving out free stuff and use that money to pay debts instead.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Jdog67 For This Useful Post:
Old 04-25-2020, 06:17 AM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is offline
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 4,299
Thanks: 8,833
Thanked 10,215 Times in 3,156 Posts
Default

States will have to go bankrupt or default on obligations
Slashing crazy obligations like bloated pension plans is a great place to start
Government Employees' unions and illegal scum screwed California
Free health care and free everything else real bad fiscal decision making
Time to get real with other peoples' money
Time for the blue/pink states to go BK and get real
Several cities/counties have gone bankrupt and did just fine and it helped them and their residents
Time to face reality
The pink/blue states have run out of other people's money
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2020, 07:07 AM
HomeDefense's Avatar
HomeDefense HomeDefense is offline
Dog Lives Matter
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hellfire, Arizona
Posts: 5,349
Thanks: 3,227
Thanked 21,534 Times in 4,609 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
States will have to go bankrupt or default on obligations
Slashing crazy obligations like bloated pension plans is a great place to start
Government Employees' unions and illegal scum screwed California
Free health care and free everything else real bad fiscal decision making
Time to get real with other peoples' money
Time for the blue/pink states to go BK and get real
Several cities/counties have gone bankrupt and did just fine and it helped them and their residents
Time to face reality
The pink/blue states have run out of other people's money
In Illinois, the state cannot default on government pensions. The Dems managed to include government pension protections in their state constitution. I did not believe that until I saw it in writing. Government pensions were promised and guaranteed, but not funded. Taxes in Illinois have been skyrocketing for years, primarily to pay for pensions.

Report: Illinois pension debt soars to $137B, despite record taxpayer contributions

In Illinois, government workers work for 20 or 25 years, then collect 75% of their annual pay for life. One of the neighbors where I grew up was a fireman at O'Hare Airport. He probably only rarely had to deal with fires, and then only when their station was called in to assist others. He worked for 20 years, retired at 46, and lived until 86. He collected more in retirement than he did while working.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to HomeDefense For This Useful Post:
Old 04-25-2020, 07:18 AM
escape's Avatar
escape escape is offline
Sic semper tyrannis.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,424
Thanks: 17,271
Thanked 19,648 Times in 5,807 Posts
Default

The state creates nothing, it's existence is through coercion. The state can never go bankrupt nor cease to exist as long as people subscribe to it's so called authority.
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2020, 07:20 AM
KoolAde2's Avatar
KoolAde2 KoolAde2 is offline
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,926
Thanks: 12,317
Thanked 4,344 Times in 1,368 Posts
Default

As States go Bankrupt there Goes Federalism and a Tyrant Federal Government
I don't you people in Here want any State to Go Bankrupt for that reason alone
__________________
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not" Thomas Jefferson
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2020, 12:41 PM
phil74501 phil74501 is offline
Prepared
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 352
Thanks: 17
Thanked 737 Times in 252 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
States will have to go bankrupt or default on obligations
Slashing crazy obligations like bloated pension plans is a great place to start
Government Employees' unions and illegal scum screwed California
Free health care and free everything else real bad fiscal decision making
Time to get real with other peoples' money
Time for the blue/pink states to go BK and get real
Several cities/counties have gone bankrupt and did just fine and it helped them and their residents
Time to face reality
The pink/blue states have run out of other people's money
In my state, state employees pensions are based upon 1% per year of service. Meaning, you work 20 years, you get 20% of your high 3 average years salary as your pension. Since most state employees, in this state, make, maybe, mid $30s, $500 a month in pension hardly qualifies as "bloated." And yes, I do know retired state employees, some of whom worked 30 years, that get about $500 a month as a pension.

Just for the record, I'm not now nor have I ever been a state employee.
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-25-2020, 05:34 PM
Mule Skinner Mule Skinner is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,115
Thanks: 2,153
Thanked 3,874 Times in 1,823 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maintenanceguy View Post
Should states just go bankrupt...seems like capitalism has some cracks in it



The way states spend money is not capitalism. If it was capitalism, the consumer would decide if they were going to spend their hard-earned money on things like license plates, building permits, business licensing fees, traffic tickets. And, if they did want these things enough to voluntarily pay for them, there would be other providers of these things.

The government pension system should fail and go away. When states take money from the general public to give it to its own employees during retirement, it's an abuse of power. If the pension system worked as promised and the fund was self sufficient it would be similar to private pension or 401K but none of the government pensions work that way. They all rely on the government forcing the masses to fund a government employee's retirement instead of funding their own.

Municipal bonds are a result of municipal governments spending money they took from us irresponsibly. If municipalities didn't spend more than they brought in in revenue, They wouldn't need to borrow in the form of bonds. And, selling bonds not only kicks the financial can down the road, it adds interest payments to the municipal debt making the municipality even less solvent in the future.
Let's consider an example. My town is building a new elementary school. I don't know the cost, but it
looks like millions to me. I agree that a new building was needed. So the question is: how should they have funded it? Looks to me like we have:
1. Funding before the need (piggy bank 40 years ago)
2. Funding after the need (municipal bond)
3. Funding immediate (everybody gets hit with a huge tax in one year)

Only the rich could handle #3.
#1 has political problems in that people would have other ideas along the way.
That leaves #2.
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2020, 12:30 AM
Prepper_Ed's Avatar
Prepper_Ed Prepper_Ed is offline
Trapper
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 811
Thanks: 1,132
Thanked 1,835 Times in 588 Posts
Default

The legal reason that states have not been included in Federal bankruptcy law is because a state filing for bankruptcy would have its finances temporarily controlled by the Federal Government, something that's probably unconstitutional.

The best thing that states with underfunded pension plans could do would be to cut pension payments and then make sure they keep the pensions fully funded in the future. States whose constitution bars cutting government pensions could amend their constitutions.
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-28-2020, 09:36 AM
petergunn's Avatar
petergunn petergunn is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Age: 60
Posts: 3,489
Thanks: 1,956
Thanked 4,275 Times in 1,925 Posts
Default

Back in 1978 Cleveland went into default.

Before any .gov money goes into Illinois Chicago needs to default.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to petergunn For This Useful Post:
Old 04-28-2020, 10:03 AM
LuniticFringeInc LuniticFringeInc is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Texas
Posts: 5,328
Thanks: 2,240
Thanked 5,483 Times in 2,524 Posts
Default

Capitalism doesnt have cracks in it...Liberalism bailing them out for irresponsible business decisions and management does! Capitalism works at its best when your held accountable and let the chips fall where they fall, or you learn from your mistakes and then adapt and over come!

An over whleming majority of these cities and States are and have been run by Liberal Minded Politicians for decades and like the Federal Government have been spending like drunkin sailors on liberty with a few paychecks in hand instead of looking ahead at tomorrow, next week and next year. Otherwise they wouldnt be in the position they are currently in. Furthermore, they wouldnt continue with the rediculas spending levels they have or business killing regulations they currently have that further complicate their situation. They are also more than likely Sanctuary cities/states that provide benefits to illegal aliens that as such make more off welfare than I make all month!!!

They (and the folks that elected them and continue to re-elect them) made the wine and now its time to drink a big ol' cup! You reap the harvest of the seeds you have sown!!!
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to LuniticFringeInc For This Useful Post:
Old 04-30-2020, 12:40 PM
faif2d's Avatar
faif2d faif2d is offline
Hiker
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Wilds of NE Texas
Posts: 580
Thanks: 6,775
Thanked 580 Times in 340 Posts
Default

Someone back in the 2008 crash made what I thought was the best statement about banks ever. We (the feds) were in the process of baling them all out to the tune of billions of dollars and his statement was " yes we need banks but we do not need those banks".
Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2020, 12:56 PM
Ankylus's Avatar
Ankylus Ankylus is online now
Listen to the ghosts
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas Gulf Coast
Posts: 5,130
Thanks: 5,707
Thanked 9,364 Times in 3,438 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slackercruster View Post
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...are-bankruptcy

If so, would be bad for some retirees with state pensions and state municipal bonds.

Seems like capitalism has some cracks in it.
No, this is not a problem with capitalism. This is precisely the way capitalism is supposed to work. People sometimes get overextended and can't pay their debts. They declare bankruptcy to satisfy their debts as best they can with what they have and, if possible, reorganize their finances. People know this, and structure their finances accordingly.

As for retirees with state pensions, this is on them. Their public unions pushed for better pay and benefits rather than fully funded pension systems. They chose...poorly, and now will experience the consequences. And, btw, unions are not a part of capitalism--they are a part of socialism. So, to the extent that the unions pushed for what their members wanted as opposed to what was smart for them, that's a problem with socialism.

As for municipal bonds, that is on the buyers. Everybody is aware of the financial state of the various municipal bonds. There are no secrets there. And every investment is a risk. If the investors lose money on municipal bonds, they, too, chose poorly.

Life is a series of choices and some of them will be poor and bring adverse consequences. How is that a failure of capitalism?
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ankylus For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net