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Old 02-06-2020, 04:36 PM
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4. Body armor is quite prolific nowadays, more cost efficient than previous years, and much more companies have this type of equipment for sale to the masses. ( Anyone who uses google to search for " level 3a body armor with groin protector" will find plenty to choose from)
Not only is it inexpensive and prolific today, but it will only get more common and less expensive.

MANY companies are developing light weight highly wearable common clothing and outerwear lined with ballistic armor. It won't be long until it's a common fabric in clothing, rendering common pistol calibers significantly less useful. Not useless. But it will widen the gap between rifle and pistol calibers.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
When someone says "just shoot for the hip, leg, groin, hand, etc" that's the talking points of gun ignorant people.

Maybe I misunderstood. But for the reasons others and I articulated, it's nonsensical.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:35 PM
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An AR40 would be good as you can drop on a 5.56 upper if you need it, but that is only if you use a mag conversion. If you have a dedicated lower then you are stuck with 40 only.
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Old 02-06-2020, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Not only is it inexpensive and prolific today, but it will only get more common and less expensive.

MANY companies are developing light weight highly wearable common clothing and outerwear lined with ballistic armor. It won't be long until it's a common fabric in clothing, rendering common pistol calibers significantly less useful. Not useless. But it will widen the gap between rifle and pistol calibers.
I see that happening now, and with advancements via technology in this field, the current gap may close off, and intermediate cartridges fired from short tubes could be rendered less effective as pistol cartridges are now.

I believe that this is a question of when and not if.

Time will tell.

11B
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Old 02-09-2020, 10:45 AM
Buck91 Buck91 is offline
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Wow great conversations! One of the things that attracts me to 40s&w is the potential for supressed subs but I suppose any hunk of lead running under ~1100fps in the 180-200gr range ought to do about the same given a good design regardless of caliber. I was thinking that 180gr defensive loads in 40 might offer some advantage over 300blk subs but perhaps this even this isn't true?
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Old 02-09-2020, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck91 View Post
Wow great conversations! One of the things that attracts me to 40s&w is the potential for supressed subs but I suppose any hunk of lead running under ~1100fps in the 180-200gr range ought to do about the same given a good design regardless of caliber. I was thinking that 180gr defensive loads in 40 might offer some advantage over 300blk subs but perhaps this even this isn't true?
The 40snw load you mention above may very well be a decent defensive load in a handgun, but defeats its purpose thru a carbine. ....other than a carbine providing 3 point hold and longer sight radius.

In addition, one that owns a handgun with a selected load for defense may find that thier new purchased carbine does not reliably cycle the same fodder, and/ or shoot it well. ( One may end up with a handgun and carbine that uses same mags, but they both may not like the same load of ammunition.

On the other end, 300 blackout ( 10.5in bbl) will push a 30cal 220gr sub at 990fps from the muzzle producing 480 ft lbs of energy.....

Using the same firearm with 10.5 in bbl and a simple mag swap can turn it into a whole other animal.

Example: Barnes Tac- TX 110gr all copper ( supersonic) at the muzzle = 2181 fps with 1162 ft lbs of energy with a bullet that retains 99% of its weight after impact, penetrate completely through a body, and reliably expand to at least twice it's original size from point blank out to around 300 yards.... or when it slows down to around 1400 fps.

An 18in bbl 357mag using factory loads cannot match this across the board, let alone a pcc in 40snw.

Then again.......if you own all of them.....your only dilemma comes when you must decide on which to use first.....lol

To give you a different way to look at it............. The below pic shows the exit wound created after a 30 cal 168gr Barnes TTSX bullet launched from a 308win case ( 18in bbl) will do to a pronghorn antelope at a bit over 600 yards. At this distance.....that bullet slowed down to around 1520 fps at impact, and had 865 ft lbs of energy when it got there. ( Right inside the capability that a 7.62x35mm case pushing it's bullet of very similar construction can achieve via much closer distances from the same target.)


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Old 02-11-2020, 05:51 PM
Herd Sniper Herd Sniper is offline
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A carbine is a weapon meant for people who don't have room or the ability to carry a heavier or bulkier rifle. Originally the .30 caliber M-1 carbine was issued to truck drivers, clerks, cooks and some paratroopers. The paratroopers need them because they were compact and allowed a soldier to carry more ammo in their jump kits.

Carbines have their uses in the modern world like they did in WW2, the Korean War and in Viet Nam too. A lot of police have used the old M-1 carbines for a mainstay shoulder-mounted firearm because they are easy to maneuver around with and they have a solid record of effectiveness when used with the right tactics.

Since the days of the M-1 carbine, the Ruger family of carbines have come to be with their PC-9 and PC-4 models. In addition though, their mini-14 and Ranch Carbines also come to mind as well.

I keep a PC-9 around for testing and training purposes. The PC-9 that I have is set up to use Glock pistol magazines which makes it work well with my Glock 9 mm pistols. I'm looking at getting a PC-4 carbine that uses Glock magazines to go along with my Glock .40 caliber pistol.

So my question involves the sighting systems used by the people shooting a .40 caliber carbine. Are you using a red dot sight system or simple scope like a 4X or something else? If so, what distance do you zero your carbine? 25, 40 or 50 yards? How far beyond 100 yards/meters do you feel comfortable engaging targets with your .40 caliber carbine?
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Old 02-11-2020, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
...Given this, I cannot fathom any reason for a PCC.
I do not own a 9mm pistol. As I can and do handle larger caliber handguns for a variety reasons, it makes little reason for me to own one. Though I also realize 9mm ammunition is plentiful, and also makes little sense to limit myself in that regard.

As such, I purchased a 9mm Kel-Tech Sub2000. I don't use it often, but I do have it, specifically for the use of the 9mm round.

I also have a .22LR carbine for hunting small game. Using a .308 on big game is one thing, but makes little sense to use on a rabbit, squirrel, coon, ect.
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Old 02-11-2020, 07:43 PM
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I also have the Hi Point .40 carbine. Its runs good and fairly accurate. Its probly the cheapest carbine you`ll find.
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:16 PM
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I absolutely love the 40 caliber round. Quite a bit of ummph in it. The only 40 caliber rifles I've seen are made by Ruger,Kel-Tec,Kriss, and Hi-Point. Yuck..Hi-Point. But out of those Ruger would be your best bet but sadly the mags are only 10rd and 15rd I believe.
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
A carbine is a weapon meant for people who don't have room or the ability to carry a heavier or bulkier rifle. Originally the .30 caliber M-1 carbine was issued to truck drivers, clerks, cooks and some paratroopers. The paratroopers need them because they were compact and allowed a soldier to carry more ammo in their jump kits.

Carbines have their uses in the modern world like they did in WW2, the Korean War and in Viet Nam too. A lot of police have used the old M-1 carbines for a mainstay shoulder-mounted firearm because they are easy to maneuver around with and they have a solid record of effectiveness when used with the right tactics.

Since the days of the M-1 carbine, the Ruger family of carbines have come to be with their PC-9 and PC-4 models. In addition though, their mini-14 and Ranch Carbines also come to mind as well.

I keep a PC-9 around for testing and training purposes. The PC-9 that I have is set up to use Glock pistol magazines which makes it work well with my Glock 9 mm pistols. I'm looking at getting a PC-4 carbine that uses Glock magazines to go along with my Glock .40 caliber pistol.

So my question involves the sighting systems used by the people shooting a .40 caliber carbine. Are you using a red dot sight system or simple scope like a 4X or something else? If so, what distance do you zero your carbine? 25, 40 or 50 yards? How far beyond 100 yards/meters do you feel comfortable engaging targets with your .40 caliber carbine?
I have used the 2 optics you mention as well as iron sights.

The scope used was a Leupold 1x4x20mm.
I dont recall the distances per holdover point, but it did work fairly well for putting holes thru paper plates at distances over 100 yards while under optimum shooting conditions. If memory serves, it was a 50yd zero.

Also used it for hog eradication on property I own in TX. My intention was to take advantage of exactly what you describe above while stalk hunting sounders, and determine if observed terminal effects were increased over the handgun. while using the same load of 40snw ammunition. ( Have shot quite a few hogs up close with 9mm, 40snw, and 357mag handguns.)

Lessons learned:

1. While 40snw is an improvement over 9mm in carbine or handgun, it does not come close to 44magnum via carbine in terms of obsevations at aftermath. ( 44magnum in a carbine does live up to the above expectations and 357mag came in a distant 2nd. )

2. Simply put, 40snw via carbine does not produce enough for the task . Best utilized as a closer range ambush hunter from an elevated position where it is much easier to place the pill where it needs to go. ( Inside of 50 yards.)

3. Mechanical accuracy: The Berretta cx4 storm proved to be the top dog. HI point was a close second, Ruger number 3, and Keltech S2000 last.

4. Dont expect it to magically turn into a rifle cartridge simply because it sports a carbine length barrel. MV is indeed faster, it does not gain ad much ad 357mag/ 44mag, and nowhere close when compared to rifle cartridges fired from sbr/ pistol tubes, let alone carbine length tubes.

In addition, 40snw sheds velocity rapidly, and is affected by wind much more than rifle cartridges. ( Shooting in less than optimum conditions has more towards effective range as well.....as in full value wind for one thing.
Because of this, it is rather challenging at distances over 100 yards.....if that is your goal.

Speakin of hogs.....

Be right back.

Edit: Continuing........

5. The ammo/ magazine sharing with a handgun sure sounded great in theory, but proved not to be the case in my experience. One simply does not gain much compared to 7.62x39mm and both cartridges weigh about the same.......for example.

These are a few reasons why I lost interest in the PCC

11B

Last edited by fragout; 02-15-2020 at 11:41 AM.. Reason: Just shot a lone boar with a 308 chambered rifle while he was rootin around a 400 yard target on my range
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:17 AM
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i'm enjoying this string. I have a marlin camp 9 with a low power scope and laser. It is my rifle for things that go bump in the night. great for plinking. the winchester trapper in 357 mostly sits in the safe. My Ruger 77/357 is my favorite deer rifle. None of the animals that I shoot have body armor. the wild boar did have some stuff on his sides so I shot him in the head. there is no one gun which does everything. and some are just fun. I find the contender with a 21" barrel and carbine stock to be rather nice when hunting in the brush.
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Old 02-15-2020, 09:14 PM
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Any gun you think is fun to shoot is fine for having fun. But I want to weigh in on the practicality of this question that's being debated here by pointing out something that I didn't see discussed in much detail yet.

From what I can tell the main reason to use a pistol round instead of a rifle round is that the pistol round is better for a shorter barrel; if the launch tube is too short for all the powder to burn before the bullet exits the barrel the round being fired is being used inefficiently, so you might as well not put more powder in the cartridge than is going to do any good, and you do the best you can to make up for lower velocity by using a bigger bullet. This is the essential difference between rifle and pistol ammunition.

According to Ballistics by the Inch, a 40 cal. round doesn't get much good from the barrel being over 10" (depending on the specific round); any barrel length beyond that serves no purpose except to make the gun longer; it can even make the bullet slower. This seems more or less typical of common pistol rounds, though some might do better with a few inches more.

Ballistics by the Inch doesn't have a listing for 5.56 but it does for .223, and based on that it looks like the .223 out of even a 10" barrel is still way faster than the pistol bullet out of that length barrel. They don't give bullet energy so I don't know how much effect the bigger bullet would have, but the difference in velocity is considerable and I doubt the heavier bullet would make up for that difference. So even with a 10" barrel the rifle round still looks like it would be quite a bit more effective. So I don't know what the advantage of a pistol caliber shoulder-fired weapon is. But such weapons are still in use so I assume there must be some purpose in them.

History tells us that a short-barreled shoulder-fired weapon can be useful; if nothing else they can at least be cheap to mass produce. And traditionally they have been made with pistol rounds. The longer rifle is better but the shorter weapon is considered good enough, or at least the advantage of the smaller size is thought to be more important than the advantage of more power.

One advantage of the pistol round would be that if you want to reduce a load to subsonic you might as well be using a bigger heavier bullet. And a 10" barrel means you can have a suppressor without making the gun overly long.

Since the pistol round even with a 10" barrel is not nearly as effective as a rifle round, it makes sense for the weapon firing that round from the shoulder (where it can be controlled) to have burst fire capability.

Where I'm going with this should be obvious: short shoulder-fired weapons that use pistol rounds probably can be useful in the right place. They are commonly called submachine guns. I think these could be a useful addition to the arsenal of freedom in America, though I would still prefer a rifle unless there was a very good reason to have a SMG instead.

Our big brother in DC though has illegally denied us permission to exercise our Constitutional right to have one of these. Burst fire is illegal on new guns and prohibitively expensive on existing ones, suppressors require special permission from our big brother and $200 in tribute, and in his wisdom our big brother set an arbitrary minimum length on rifle barrels at 16" (without special permission and another tribute payment).

This is all illegal according to the Constitution, but it doesn't matter what the law says when people who have no respect for the law have the power to put you in jail. So for all practical purposes, a shoulder-fired pistol-caliber weapon is only available if it has been bastardized into uselessness by the criminal gang in Washington. And the bastardized version, while certainly lethal, just doesn't really have a niche, except as a toy.

Even the value of the non-bastardized version is questionable, when you compare the SMG to the SBR.

I remember this subject being discussed on a different site several years ago and someone who was heavily involved in practical pistol competition said he experimented with a pistol caliber carbine on practical pistol type courses, and he said based on that experience he saw absolutely no advantage in them, even over a pistol.

I remember the guy on the YouTube show Forgotten Weapons, who seems to know the subject very well, said that the AK47 was a result of an attempt to make a better SMG (while the SKS was an attempt to make a better rifle). That being the case, it could be that shoulder-fired pistol-caliber weapons are simply obsolete, but not everyone has figured it out yet.

I think they're cool by the way. I think swords are cool too. But if my life is on the line I'll choose practical over cool any day.
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