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Old 02-01-2020, 08:10 AM
Buck91 Buck91 is offline
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Looking at .40s&w carbine options and I'm not really sure what to think. I like the form of the Ruger PCC with its more traditional appearance but would I be better off with an AR-40 and if so, who makes a good one? TNW has a nice looking AR-40 pistol but I've never heard of them before. Anybody have some thoughts or experiences to share?
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:21 AM
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I used to have a Hi Point 40 S&W PCC. I know HiPoint, I know. But I never had an issue with it, and I picked the 40SW because I figured with it being a high pressure round it would benefit more from the longer barrel. Bought the pistol to match too. 10 round mags limit it some but it was fun to shoot nonetheless. Traded both in part towards an SKS-D so no regrets. I might pick up the 10mm HP carbine just cause.

Side note.. Since I am now carrying a M&P in 40SW I am looking at the Keltec Sub2000 PCC in 40SW because they can use the same mags. If you have something that shares mags that makes a nice package for traveling not-so-long distances. Longer travel, like more than a days drive, I would bring a rifle caliber.
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:23 AM
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My nephew has a Ruger carbine in 40 cal. He reports that subsonic loads of 180g cast lead, have almost no report.
Great for culling hungry critters as large as deer, from his garden.
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:00 AM
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The .40 S&W using factory loads fired from a carbine mimicks exactly the ballistics of the .38-40 Winchester black powder load fired in a Winchester 1873 sadddle carbine. You could do very much worse than to set up a .40 carbine and pistol combination. It would work as well today as the traditional rifle and revolver combos did 150 years ago.
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Old 02-01-2020, 11:07 AM
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I've got a Hi-Point in 40cal and it runs great & is quite accurate. Everyone in the family loves shooting it too. Only real drawback is the 10rnd mag capacity, you can get aftermarket ones with 15 rounds but they stick way out the bottom of the grip which is a PITA. Other than that been real happy with it.

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Old 02-01-2020, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
The .40 S&W using factory loads fired from a carbine mimicks exactly the ballistics of the .38-40 Winchester black powder load fired in a Winchester 1873 sadddle carbine. You could do very much worse than to set up a .40 carbine and pistol combination. It would work as well today as the traditional rifle and revolver combos did 150 years ago.
A lot of things will work as well today as they did 150 years ago. Which often means, not all that well......

In the days of wildly abundant large game and low concern for humane hunting, who knows how many millions of wounded animals ran off to slowly die a painful death, after being hit with a 38-40, or other low powered black powder cartridge of the day. Great Great Grampa merely took a shot at another one a few minutes later. Did they work with a good hit at close range? Sure.... but so will a .22.

(Spare me the my Great Great Grampa could only afford one bullet a year, so he always dropped his Elk or Deer with one shot from his 32-20 stories. They're a lot like fishing stories.... Our ancestors weren't all as good as the legends claim they were.)

A good 180 grain bullet at 1100-1200 fps is certainly useful as a defense cartridge..... in the defense pistol cartridge sense. It is not, nor was it ever, a good medium or large game cartridge. Perhaps as Hick suggested, in slower loadings, a reasonably quiet cartridge to cull animals at across the yard distances.

Rifle pistol combos are a fun and nostalgic idea. I have several, in 32-30, .30 carbine, 9mm, .38/.357, .41 magnum, 44 spl/magnum, .45 acp, and I spent many happy hours roaming around the woods or deserts carrying one or another at various times in my life. .357 and .44 magnum in particular, benefit greatly from increased barrel length, and can reach low end rifle velocities in some loads, albeit with pistol projectiles. An efficient cartridge like .40 S&W, only gets a very modest bump in velocity through longer barrels. It in no way becomes a rifle cartridge. Doesn't mean it can't be useful. It's just not the all around good for anything combo many might think it is.


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Old 02-01-2020, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
A lot of things will work as well today as they did 150 years ago. Which often means, not all that well......

In the days of wildly abundant large game and low concern for humane hunting, who knows how many millions of wounded animals ran off to slowly die a painful death, after being hit with a 38-40, or other low powered black powder cartridge of the day. Great Great Grampa merely took a shot at another one a few minutes later. Did they work with a good hit at close range? Sure.... but so will a .22.

(Spare me the my Great Great Grampa could only afford one bullet a year, so he always dropped his Elk or Deer with one shot from his 32-20 stories. They're a lot like fishing stories.... Our ancestors weren't all as good as the legends claim they were.)

A good 180 grain bullet at 1100-1200 fps is certainly useful as a defense cartridge..... in the defense pistol cartridge sense. It is not, nor was it ever, a good medium or large game cartridge. Perhaps as Hick suggested, in slower loadings, a reasonably quiet cartridge to cull animals at across the yard distances.

Rifle pistol combos are a fun and nostalgic idea. I have several, in 32-30, .30 carbine, 9mm, .38/.357, .41 magnum, 44 spl/magnum, .45 acp, and I spent many happy hours roaming around the woods or deserts carrying one or another at various times in my life. .357 and .44 magnum in particular, benefit greatly from increased barrel length, and can reach low end rifle velocities in some loads, albeit with pistol projectiles. An efficient cartridge like .40 S&W, only gets a very modest bump in velocity through longer barrels. It in no way becomes a rifle cartridge. Doesn't mean it can't be useful. It's just not the all around good for anything combo many might think it is.
As a big game cartridge out of a carbine, I much prefer my Marlin 1894 in 44 mag loaded with a Sierra 300g JSP, or my Winchester 94 in 356 Win.
Low pressure, low velosity flat nose bullets will kill effectively, but their raindow trajectory makes actually hitting the animal in a critical spot a challenge.

A high pressure rifle loaded with a good streamlined expanding bullets hits just as hard (or harded) and makes it much, much easier to actually hit the animal. Which is why for the +30 yrs I lived and hunted in the Eatern Sierra mtns, I carried a 270 win instead of carbine.
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Old 02-01-2020, 01:35 PM
Buck91 Buck91 is offline
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I'm enjoying the discussion so far and appreciate that there are more potent options than a carbine length .40s&w. I believe I'm aware of the limitations but like I said, anybody have experience with either the Ruger PCC or this crazy TNW AR-40 (or similar)? I don't want to break the bank but looking for a good value. I've heard a lot of good stuff about the kel-tec but if I go with a modern aesthetic I'd rather buy/build an AR-40.
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Old 02-01-2020, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck91 View Post
I'm enjoying the discussion so far and appreciate that there are more potent options than a carbine length .40s&w. I believe I'm aware of the limitations but like I said, anybody have experience with either the Ruger PCC or this crazy TNW AR-40 (or similar)? I don't want to break the bank but looking for a good value. I've heard a lot of good stuff about the kel-tec but if I go with a modern aesthetic I'd rather buy/build an AR-40.
The kel tec sub2000 is a hit or miss. You can get a "good" one or a bad one. If you get a bad one then good luck with customer service. If you get a "good" one you will still have an out of the box uncomfortable shooter with a crap trigger.

I do however have one in 9MM that I padded the stock on it. It stays under the fold down center console of my truck with three 33 round glock mags. It shares the same mags and ammo as my G17. With my carry gun and mags plus the truck gun and mags I have 150 rounds of 9MM that can be used in the PCC or the pistol.
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Old 02-01-2020, 07:31 PM
Hammerstrike Hammerstrike is offline
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I have sub2000 in .40 Glock flavor. It’s not a comfortable setup to shoot all day for sure. In saying that I do like it for what it is. Makes it even better having a few pistols that share the same mags with it. I’m not planning on getting rid of it anytime soon. It can reach out and ring steel from quite a distance which has pretty much convinced me to keep it. The trigger upgrade has worked wonders. The stock trigger is crap as Zuriss stated.

Those Rugers do look like a nice option especially with the Magpul takedown furniture. If you want to drop the coin on the whole shabang.
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck91 View Post
Looking at .40s&w carbine options and I'm not really sure what to think. I like the form of the Ruger PCC with its more traditional appearance but would I be better off with an AR-40 and if so, who makes a good one? TNW has a nice looking AR-40 pistol but I've never heard of them before. Anybody have some thoughts or experiences to share?
Yes. Don't waste time and money on a PCC (pistol caliber carbine).

Penalty of a rifle sized weapon and the penalty of a handgun caliber.

Rifles should shoot rifle rounds, which shoot flatter, further, more accurately, and have better variety of barrier and armor penetration.

The .40 won't shoot as far as a 556.
The .40 won't defeat soft armor but the 556 will.

An AR can be as low as $350, slightly better about $400, and mid grade $500, with $10 mags. I doubt you can beat that with a PCC, or if so it's about a marginal price difference.

AR mags are $10. So... no need for the nonsense "ammo and magazine commonality" argument.

556 is about the same price as good .40 ammo.

Given this, I cannot fathom any reason for a PCC.
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Old 02-02-2020, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Buck91 View Post
I I don't want to break the bank but looking for a good value. 40.
https://www.endotactical.com

$35 (shipped) for the proprietary part
$10 for an AD pistol buffer tube
$24 for an arm brace.

Pop it into a $300-$350 Glock 22 in one second.
Can come apart to go into a holster just as quickly.
(I have one, everyone who shoots it wants one.)

If your going to go with a real rifle get an Ak or AR pistol in .300.
I had a sub 2000, sold it and don't miss it.
Buddy has the takedown ruger. Neat, but overpriced, overlarge, and underpowered.
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Old 02-02-2020, 02:16 AM
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You should look @ Extar & Palmetto State Armory . They both sell .40 carbines .
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Old 02-02-2020, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Yes. Don't waste time and money on a PCC (pistol caliber carbine).

Penalty of a rifle sized weapon and the penalty of a handgun caliber.

Rifles should shoot rifle rounds, which shoot flatter, further, more accurately, and have better variety of barrier and armor penetration.

The .40 won't shoot as far as a 556.
The .40 won't defeat soft armor but the 556 will.

An AR can be as low as $350, slightly better about $400, and mid grade $500, with $10 mags. I doubt you can beat that with a PCC, or if so it's about a marginal price difference.

AR mags are $10. So... no need for the nonsense "ammo and magazine commonality" argument.

556 is about the same price as good .40 ammo.

Given this, I cannot fathom any reason for a PCC.
maybe he doesnt want a PCC to replace a 5.56, maybe the PCC is to make better use of the ammunition than a handgun could, which it does considerably
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Old 02-02-2020, 10:13 AM
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Want a .40 carbine, get one.
Aero Precison just announced theirs, but there is a list of good options out there.

So many people are so worried about shooting hundreds of yards, they don't consider looking down a hallway. And punching through armor? How many people have needed to do this outside of a military setting?
Little secret about punching through armor, don't. Shoot around it. Crotch shot may not be lethal but its a heck of an introduction from fate.

The .40 carbines are cheap to shoot, especially if you load your own. I was shooting .40 for @$.05 a piece using reclaimed lead and range brass.
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Old 02-03-2020, 09:47 PM
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Good thread and thanks all of you for the info. I played with a Keltec 9mm about 7 years ago....kind of not for me. I just fingerbanged the ruger PCC at Cabelas and I'm figuring that is the way I might want to go.

Any of you dudes have any experience with the Glock,,,whatever,,,insert that lets you use G22 glock mags?
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Old 02-03-2020, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by whirlibird View Post
Want a .40 carbine, get one.
Aero Precison just announced theirs, but there is a list of good options out there.

So many people are so worried about shooting hundreds of yards, they don't consider looking down a hallway. And punching through armor? How many people have needed to do this outside of a military setting?
Little secret about punching through armor, don't. Shoot around it. Crotch shot may not be lethal but its a heck of an introduction from fate.

The .40 carbines are cheap to shoot, especially if you load your own. I was shooting .40 for @$.05 a piece using reclaimed lead and range brass.
If you're that good of a shot why not just a shot to the face or head?

You sound like a gun ignorant liberal. "Just shoot him in the leg." Anyone with real training knows that's not a realistic thing to do.

You shoot to end a threat immediately. Any shot to "wound" allows the aggressor an opportunity to shoot back and otherwise stay in the fight.

Armor protects most areas where there's a high probability of an instant lights out. (And P.S. soft armor may be concealed and you may not know. In the time it takes YOU to determine whether he's wearing armor, and to shoot for the hip or groin or whatever, YOUR lights might be out.) Professionals train to shoot COM, double or triple tap.

All very simple.

And your "reloading" argument would hold just as true for 5.56. And 5.56 is actually commercially about the same price or often cheaper than .40. AR mags are also cheaper. And the platform is cheaper. Economic arguments will probably favor the 5.56 over the .40.

I digress. OP will get what he wants. Just wanted to point out the folly of this posting.
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Old 02-04-2020, 07:37 PM
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Ruger Pistol Caliber Carbines are really heavy.

I've got a KelTec 2K that's light and handy, also the Endo/brace mods for .357 and 9mm Glocks.

I'm okay with anyone who has no use for a rifle shooting a handgun cartridge. On the other hand, I shoot carbines and rifles that take .22 LR, .22 M, 9mm, .357, .44 M and love 'em! My kid got my MTech .45 ACP. My MTech in .38 Super will handle Winchester 9X23.

The rifle/carbine gives me more sighting radius, steadier hold, moves the noise further from my ears, serves as a better platform for some electronic and magnified sights, doesn't need a holster...
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Old 02-04-2020, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
If you're that good of a shot why not just a shot to the face or head?

You sound like a gun ignorant liberal. "Just shoot him in the leg." Anyone with real training knows that's not a realistic thing to do.

You shoot to end a threat immediately. Any shot to "wound" allows the aggressor an opportunity to shoot back and otherwise stay in the fight.

Armor protects most areas where there's a high probability of an instant lights out. (And P.S. soft armor may be concealed and you may not know. In the time it takes YOU to determine whether he's wearing armor, and to shoot for the hip or groin or whatever, YOUR lights might be out.) Professionals train to shoot COM, double or triple tap.

All very simple.

And your "reloading" argument would hold just as true for 5.56. And 5.56 is actually commercially about the same price or often cheaper than .40. AR mags are also cheaper. And the platform is cheaper. Economic arguments will probably favor the 5.56 over the .40.

I digress. OP will get what he wants. Just wanted to point out the folly of this posting.
I will step in and say a few words as I know WB is busy.

1: He is that good of a shot.

2: As I learned in one of WB'a classes, and was demonstrated, it's easier to hit the pelvic area than the head.
Secondly as was pointed out by a different instructor, a lot of guys in armor are also wearing helmets.

3: He is not a gun ignorant liberal, and from your comments probably knows more than you.

Shooting center of mass when the target is wearing armor, seems kinda silly, as it may not work, may attract return fire.

Several old school gun fighters spoke of shooting for the crotch when the chest wasn't available, then guys like Clint Smith talk about it today.
But it sounds like you know better than guys who have shot people for real.
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Old 02-05-2020, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Herkemer View Post
Good thread and thanks all of you for the info. I played with a Keltec 9mm about 7 years ago....kind of not for me. I just fingerbanged the ruger PCC at Cabelas and I'm figuring that is the way I might want to go.

Any of you dudes have any experience with the Glock,,,whatever,,,insert that lets you use G22 glock mags?
I didn't like the Sub2K either. I have a Hi Point but it is what it is. There isn't a whole lot of good carbines made. When I go for one in 9mm it's probably going to be based off a sub gun kit for that reason. But the PCC does look interesting in how it's constructed. I wonder if you could slap a shroud and a wood stock on that thing and have something that looks more like a WWII weapon?

But in the other direction, I have found this.

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