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Old 12-02-2018, 11:36 AM
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I must have your mistress'es sister, one of the first ones, been using it forever, think its up to its 4th or 5th (maybe) recoat and 6th (possibly )sheath, . got it when i was still active duty, off a small add out of SOF magazine. never found it wanting for anything. picked up one of the swamp rats year or so ago, Ratmandu, older one, for swamp rat, collector had got a few scuffs on it from the kydex, I paired it with a Esee back/pouch (dont like clip sheaths) and it runs just fine. have the small BUSSE police recruit as well, thats a chunk of metal you can cut with....
Esee, ive found, scales just didnt grip for me. changed or spaced, all the ROWAN blades, whether it was DPX, ONTARIO,or ESEE. just to thin for my hand. only ontario i found that was thick enough from the start, early RTAK. these 3 (early case XX bolo, HOOD THUG, and ESEE 6 ) I had rescaled by a guy up in Cowpen's SC. good to go.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:04 PM
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I own more Busee knives than any other knife brand and I honeslty dont know how many knives I have. Couple hundred maybe, I dont know.
I've been very critical lately regarding the way they ship their knives, especially the poor sharpening and at times lack of detail in such an expensive knife. It still bothers me that they cant be bothered to ship a knife with an actual sheath. Sometimes their blade geometry isnt that good either and get too far into the flmaboyant design factor over utility.
Having said all that some of their knives are very sound and their steel and heat treatment is fantastic. Maybe a bit of a snob thing about them, sure. A bit of a fanboy base? sure, but the steel and heat treatment is in fact great and not just a 20$ chunk of steel with some fancy tactical logo on it.



You'd assume wrong. Busse's heat treatment is second to none 5160 is great stuff but it will break before INFI would, especially on a Battlemistress.
You are right about their edges, but the fundamental issue is edge thickness. This is how a 25 ounce Battlesaw did, with factory edge, against a 17 ounce Lile Mission:



Despite the enormous edge thickness, it still suffered one ding over the thinner (but intact) Lile...



The Lile itself would prove chip prone later... But when thinned to decent sharpness, INFI behaved like this vs thinner 5160 below...:



It is true convexing makes the edge more fragile, by making the wood "pinch" the metal closer to the edge, but still...

The Ontario SP-53 is widely acknowledged as the ultimate chopping monster...

So yeah, I'd say INFI is the underdog here...

Gaston
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaston444 View Post
You are right about their edges, but the fundamental issue is edge thickness. This is how a 25 ounce Battlesaw did, with factory edge, against a 17 ounce Lile Mission:



Despite the enormous edge thickness, it still suffered one ding over the thinner (but intact) Lile...



The Lile itself would prove chip prone later... But when thinned to decent sharpness, INFI behaved like this vs thinner 5160 below...:



It is true convexing makes the edge more fragile, by making the wood "pinch" the metal closer to the edge, but still...

The Ontario SP-53 is widely acknowledged as the ultimate chopping monster...

So yeah, I'd say INFI is the underdog here...

Gaston
Looks like you thinned down that INFI blade edge a LOT in that last picture, no wonder its all flexed like a wrinkled can of soda. Steel can only do so much if you change the geometry that way. Thin edges will always be more fragile.
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Old 12-02-2018, 05:58 PM
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420j in 5...4...3...2...1...

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Old 12-04-2018, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Looks like you thinned down that INFI blade edge a LOT in that last picture, no wonder its all flexed like a wrinkled can of soda. Steel can only do so much if you change the geometry that way. Thin edges will always be more fragile.
Well, how do you explain the thinner/sharper edge in 5160, just below, held up perfectly, to the same use, on a similar size knife?

Although excuses for INFI are almost as prevalent as for CPM steels (which are truly ridiculous), the reality is the inherent weakness of barely slicing-capable convex edges is the real issue here: They have to be much blunter, to compensate the wood pinching nearer the edge...

That wrinkled soda can edge? It cut like crap on small tasks compared to the 5160 below... So it was still on the thick side... And it was a mirror pro edge.

Convexes prevent sticking, compared to Full Flat Grinds (hence better for competitions), but they have otherwise poor versatility.

Gaston
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gaston444 View Post
Well, how do you explain the thinner/sharper edge in 5160, just below, held up perfectly, to the same use, on a similar size knife?

Although excuses for INFI are almost as prevalent as for CPM steels (which are truly ridiculous), the reality is the inherent weakness of barely slicing-capable convex edges is the real issue here: They have to be much blunter, to compensate the wood pinching nearer the edge...

That wrinkled soda can edge? It cut like crap on small tasks compared to the 5160 below... So it was still on the thick side... And it was a mirror pro edge.

Convexes prevent sticking, compared to Full Flat Grinds (hence better for competitions), but they have otherwise poor versatility.

Gaston
I only see a knife that had clealry been modified. I dont know what was done to it exactly. Seems that the edge was made thinner, the angle significantly changed, but I dont know how you did that either. Maybe you used tools and heat it to a point were you messed with the heat treatment. Maybe you made that edge too thin. Maybe its one of those rare lemons and its just a bad HT knife. If you believe you havent done anything to compromise the knife then honestly I would contact Busse and have them take care of it, which they will.
I have several Busse knives, have beaten the crap out of them and that kind of damage isnt normal. Worst thing I've seen is some very minor denting when abused to the point where other knives would chip or break.
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:03 PM
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It was a professional regrind by RazorEdgeKnive (REK), to about 0.030" and something over 15 dps near the edge. Almost Mirror edge that could barely slice meat well, but of course jumping hair shaving sharp... REK is a full time pro, uses water cooled belts, and his reputation is the absolute best: A heavy re grind is usually months of wait and in the hundreds of $ (as was this one)...

Note INFI already took damage on the 25 dps 0.060" factory "wedge"... It is furthermore well known to not hold up when thinner, hence the movie prop type bluntness on delivery...

Gaston
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:13 PM
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There is no such thing as a poor man's Busse. What makes a Busse special is not the design or the "exclusivity"... it's the steel. You can copy every aspect of a Busse, make a perfect replica, but if it's not INFI, it's not even close.
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:27 AM
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can you get one quicker than 32 weeks like the Busse
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston444 View Post
It was a professional regrind by RazorEdgeKnive (REK), to about 0.030" and something over 15 dps near the edge. Almost Mirror edge that could barely slice meat well, but of course jumping hair shaving sharp... REK is a full time pro, uses water cooled belts, and his reputation is the absolute best: A heavy re grind is usually months of wait and in the hundreds of $ (as was this one)...

Note INFI already took damage on the 25 dps 0.060" factory "wedge"... It is furthermore well known to not hold up when thinner, hence the movie prop type bluntness on delivery...

Gaston
Not sure what you were trying to do with this knife. Obviously a heavy chopper kind of knife, why then thin it down like that, especially when you say INFI is "well known to not hold yp when thinner".
INFI is a great steel for the knife its used in, usually large, heavy use choppers. I've managed to get all of mine razor sharp with the original grind.
Buy why buy a heavy use chopper, thin down the edge for slicing work, which wasnt the original purpose of that type of knife, and then obviously not using it as a more delicate slicing knife either but beat on it and complain it is not holding up as you expected.
A thinner Elmax blade would probably be a good idea.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston444 View Post
It was a professional regrind by RazorEdgeKnive (REK), to about 0.030" and something over 15 dps near the edge. Almost Mirror edge that could barely slice meat well, but of course jumping hair shaving sharp... REK is a full time pro, uses water cooled belts, and his reputation is the absolute best: A heavy re grind is usually months of wait and in the hundreds of $ (as was this one)...

Note INFI already took damage on the 25 dps 0.060" factory "wedge"... It is furthermore well known to not hold up when thinner, hence the movie prop type bluntness on delivery...

Gaston
Does your full time pro sharpener ever caution you that what you're asking him to do can result in a ruined knife?
Or does he think you know more about it than he does?
I would hope that a professional would let you know up front.

It appears that he did his own Busse at around 22 DPS.


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Old 12-07-2018, 12:27 AM
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I always thought Busse was the poor mans Randall.
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Old 12-08-2018, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Not sure what you were trying to do with this knife. Obviously a heavy chopper kind of knife, why then thin it down like that, especially when you say INFI is "well known to not hold yp when thinner".
INFI is a great steel for the knife its used in, usually large, heavy use choppers. I've managed to get all of mine razor sharp with the original grind.
Buy why buy a heavy use chopper, thin down the edge for slicing work, which wasnt the original purpose of that type of knife, and then obviously not using it as a more delicate slicing knife either but beat on it and complain it is not holding up as you expected.
A thinner Elmax blade would probably be a good idea.
From what I saw, there is no "original grind" on a Busse, as demontrated by the half pound lighter Lile matching it chop for chop... Every owner who actually uses them re-grinds them thinner, because they are useless as delivered.

And I only chop, NEVER BATON, so absolutely no beating on knives here, is that clear?...

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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
: INFI is a great steel for the knife its used in, usually large, heavy use choppers.
No it's not, but a fairer assessment of how bad it is would involve a V-Edge, not the handicap of convex.

As I've said a hundred times, if 420 can do it while thinner, why does INFI and CPMs fail while thicker?

Gaston
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Old 12-08-2018, 04:36 PM
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"Andrew I only chop, NEVER BATON, so absolutely no beating on knives here, is that clear?..."

So, to be clear, you do not think chopping with a knife is using a knife as an impact tool?
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston444 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Not sure what you were trying to do with this knife. Obviously a heavy chopper kind of knife, why then thin it down like that, especially when you say INFI is "well known to not hold yp when thinner".
INFI is a great steel for the knife its used in, usually large, heavy use choppers. I've managed to get all of mine razor sharp with the original grind.
Buy why buy a heavy use chopper, thin down the edge for slicing work, which wasnt the original purpose of that type of knife, and then obviously not using it as a more delicate slicing knife either but beat on it and complain it is not holding up as you expected.
A thinner Elmax blade would probably be a good idea.
From what I saw, there is no "original grind" on a Busse, as demontrated by the half pound lighter Lile matching it chop for chop... Every owner who actually uses them re-grinds them thinner, because they are useless as delivered.

And I only chop, NEVER BATON, so absolutely no beating on knives here, is that clear?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
: INFI is a great steel for the knife its used in, usually large, heavy use choppers.
No it's not, but a fairer assessment of how bad it is would involve a V-Edge, not the handicap of convex.

As I've said a hundred times, if 420 can do it while thinner, why does INFI and CPMs fail while thicker?

Gaston
We clearly have very different ideas of what a useful knife is. I admit to sharpening the last couple Busse because the edge was terrible but there was no need at all to reprofile the edge. Shaving sharp is enough for me, especially for a big knife.
Chopping with a knife, yes, that would be pretty abusive. Knives arent hatchets and only strong knives with strong edge geometries can take it. 420 HC is ok, but its also one of the cheapest most average steels around. Not sure how you compare it to INFI.
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:38 AM
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We clearly have very different ideas of what a useful knife is. I admit to sharpening the last couple Busse because the edge was terrible but there was no need at all to reprofile the edge. Shaving sharp is enough for me, especially for a big knife.
Chopping with a knife, yes, that would be pretty abusive. Knives arent hatchets and only strong knives with strong edge geometries can take it. 420 HC is ok, but its also one of the cheapest most average steels around. Not sure how you compare it to INFI.
I never understood what shaving showed about cutting ability: As I knife nut, I stopped shaving my arms decades ago, since it won't even tell you if it has a wire edge or not... Nowadays it is nail rubbing and phonebook paper cutting for me. Other methods are clearly inferior in my view.

I would never compare INFI to 420 unless it was -30 or -40C: 420 is vastly superior: No INFI knife can do this (100s of hits):



With almost no detectable (much less visible!) loss in paper...:



And yes, the Tawanese 420 likely shaved perfectly after all this... Only Aus-8/440 and 5160 are comparable, but 440 is vastly inferior to sharpen.

The superiority of cheap 420J is likely mostly in the steel structure of cheap factory knives: They cut the blade perpendicular to the carbide grain, and big factory heat treat is way better than small run shops. It is the way it goes...

Gaston
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:58 AM
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I never understood what shaving showed about cutting ability: As I knife nut, I stopped shaving my arms decades ago, since it won't even tell you if it has a wire edge or not... Nowadays it is nail rubbing and phonebook paper cutting for me. Other methods are clearly inferior in my view.
Shaving shows that a knife is reasonably sharp. And yes, I agree that catching on your fingernail rather than sliding means the knife is even sharper, but if it easily shaves and cuts through paper cleanly and easily its sharp enough for me, especially for a heavy use knife.
As for wire edges those are easy to detect and fix. Dragging your nail towards the edge shows you if you have one. If your nail gets caught on something right in the edge, then you have a wire edge. Just sharpen it some more with cutting motions against the stone. This removes the wire edge. Some steels are more prone to it than othes. INFI isnt prone to it in my experience but its no big deal if it happens because its easily detected and fixed.


Quote:
I would never compare INFI to 420 unless it was -30 or -40C: 420 is vastly superior: No INFI knife can do this (100s of hits):

Yes it can (unless you mess up the blade geometry like you did). I've cut down small trees with my Bushwacker Battle Mistress. And Lile Mission knife is CPM 154CM, not 420.
Quote:
With almost no detectable (much less visible!) loss in paper...:


You seem to like softer steels. Personally I like 1055 better. Good simple steel, but a lot more carbon, I find it easier to put a good edge that lasts long enough. Very tough and easy to sharpen.

Quote:
And yes, the Tawanese 420 likely shaved perfectly after all this... Only Aus-8/440 and 5160 are comparable, but 440 is vastly inferior to sharpen.

The superiority of cheap 420J is likely mostly in the steel structure of cheap factory knives: They cut the blade perpendicular to the carbide grain, and big factory heat treat is way better than small run shops. It is the way it goes...

Gaston
Tawanese 420, so its a knockoff, not a real Lile Mission knife. Any chance the Busse is a knockoff too? There's a lot of them around. Did you buy it directly from Busse?
I cant imagine why anyone would consdier 420 to be " vastly superior" to INFI. You dont think people would notice that?
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Old 12-09-2018, 09:04 AM
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It can get confusing when a guy says...

"With almost no detectable (much less visible!) loss in paper."

"Phonebook*paper slicing ability of 420J*did not visibly deteriorate after*100 chops on Maple."

And also says...

"Normal" paper-cutting sharpness tests by comparison*are largely meaningless: Paper tells*you little about*the*apex*condition(except immediately aftersharpening, de-burring andcleaning) and neither does it tell you much about the apex stability."

And

"All*you have to do is*stop*slicing*paper to test your edge."

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Old 12-09-2018, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Shaving shows that a knife is reasonably sharp. And yes, I agree that catching on your fingernail rather than sliding means the knife is even sharper, but if it easily shaves and cuts through paper cleanly and easily its sharp enough for me, especially for a heavy use knife.
As for wire edges those are easy to detect and fix. Dragging your nail towards the edge shows you if you have one. If your nail gets caught on something right in the edge, then you have a wire edge.
The nail is only to detect an invisible wire edge, trailing the edge. The bold part doesn't mean anything to me.




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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Yes it can (unless you mess up the blade geometry like you did). I've cut down small trees with my Bushwacker Battle Mistress. And Lile Mission knife is CPM 154CM, not 420.
What? CPM steels did not exist for knives when my first 50 all black 1985 Lile was made... When sharp, this $2K Lile knife chipped easily, had an uneven edge that was very hard to sharpen. Missions are either fair D-2 or some crappy 440. Mine seemed D-2, the 5160 Voorhis below was much thinner, and adding a micro-bevel stopped chipping, while the duller Lile kept chipping...



Workmanship of $2000 Lile vs $100 United (left) : Note nice concrete-like "texture" on Lile finish, despite new Cerakoat, plus sexy tool marks showing through the coat, with half as good edge holding...



Any wonder that the United now rides in the sold Lile's sheath? But with a new, far stronger and non bending handle, made with a SureFire body...



Yes, that sums up my experience with top end customs... Thank God few ever get real use...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post

You seem to like softer steels. Personally I like 1055 better. Good simple steel, but a lot more carbon, I find it easier to put a good edge that lasts long enough. Very tough and easy to sharpen.
Wood cares about steel structure, not letters and numbers I've found...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Tawanese 420, so its a knockoff, not a real Lile Mission knife. Any chance the Busse is a knockoff too? There's a lot of them around. Did you buy it directly from Busse?
I cant imagine why anyone would consdier 420 to be " vastly superior" to INFI. You dont think people would notice that?
A fake? United is not a fake, just a far superior blade copy with an absolute crap cast metal handle...

As for people not noticing, just remember Essee founder Jeff Randall: "95% of this business is bull****..."

Gaston
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Old 12-09-2018, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Cliff Nieporte View Post
It can get confusing when a guy says...

"With almost no detectable (much less visible!) loss in paper."

"Phonebook*paper slicing ability of 420J*did not visibly deteriorate after*100 chops on Maple."

And also says...

"Normal" paper-cutting sharpness tests by comparison*are largely meaningless: Paper tells*you little about*the*apex*condition(except immediately aftersharpening, de-burring andcleaning) and neither does it tell you much about the apex stability."

And

"All*you have to do is*stop*slicing*paper to test your edge."

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Nail rubbing away from the edge does tell you the shape of the apex. Then phone book paper does shows the slightest flaw in a run through: It hangs up on the slightest flaw, including a micro rolled wire edge, because it reacts to the edge direction.

Gaston
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