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Bought Property near St Johns AZ

140K views 2K replies 57 participants last post by  Steve_In_29 
#1 ·
My wife and I will be retired two years the end of this month and we signed the papers on a property in AZ back at the end of May. We still have things to finish up here in CA and probably won't be totally moved for a while yet. I also need to get a shop built there to house all my stuff.

House is a 1452sqft 2bed/2bath log cabin on almost 40 vegetated acres, 9 miles east of a place called St Johns (pop:3400). The house sits at 6400' elevation and while technically still a desert it is cooler and wetter then 29 Palms and in a micro-climate that allows trees. Property cost us $160K and seller paid closing costs.

From horizon to horizon I can see (with bino's) eight other houses. Closest neighbors are almost 1000yds away with the next set of houses right at a mile. The property is on a County maintained gravel road, has electricity, well, septic and cell service (Verizon). Property is fully fenced (4 strand barb wire) which the realtor said the rule of thumb was $10K for 40acres. Still have to do something to keep goats in though.

The house is 14 years old but has never been lived in full time. First owner's wife got ill and needed to be closer to major medical before they even moved in. Second owner bought it as their future retirement place but after his wife spent the first nights there she refused to go back...saying it was, "too quiet"..."too dark"..."too isolated"...etc. They are from Los Angeles so I imagine St John's was quite a shock to her.

There aren't really any jobs there but we are retired so it doesn't matter. There is a small grocery/hardware store, a chain auto parts, a Subway and Dollar General. Two Mexican restaurants and two American (one of which doubles as the Italian place) and if I want pizza it's just a local place. The closest McD's, Walmart, Home Depot, etc is 60 miles away in Show Low. This wasn't such a change for us as Walmart is already 20 miles away here in 29 Palms, with the closest big city (Palm Springs) being 50+ miles each way.

Everyone we have met seems nice and even the teenagers were polite. We also didn't see a single person that looked like a gang banger or thug. Not to say the place is lily-white, just that we saw people and not scum. There is apparently a problem with meth in the area, as there WILL be in every poorer location, but my closest neighbor (ADOT cop) said there is rarely any issues out where we live. My house has been sitting basically unoccupied for a decade and has never been broken into.

That neighbor did come out with a gun to ask me who I was and what I was doing out there when we stopped by the property the night before the realtor took us out there...my kind of guy. We hit it off as we talked for an hour in the dark...and it is DARK!!! out there. He is former Phoenix PD that moved his family to St John's to get out of the rat race and now works commercial traffic enforcement on I40. We later met his parents (nice people) who live 4 miles closer to town on the same county road.

While the CC&Rs state "no shooting" on property, the neighbor says he shoots on his all the time with no problems. Apparently the Sheriff won't enforce the HOA shooting prohibition and the HOA has no way to do so either. HOA is really only for road maintenance. There is also BLM land a mile up the road that I can shoot on and a range in St Johns for about $60 a year membership.

We choose St John's (after over 2yrs of searching) because it is so out of the way. Though it's almost city living compared to some of the ones we were considering. Places where it was a 70 mile trip (each way) to simply buy a gallon of milk for instance. The longer we have been around people, the less we want to be. It is amazing how hard it is to actually get away from people now but not needing to worry about employment allowed us to really widen the possible locations.

We had looked for somewhere with the least chance of having or being affected by disasters. No earthquakes, floods, mudslides, tornadoes, hurricanes, forest fires, Black Lives Matter, etc. While also avoiding swarms of flying insects and high humidity. We didn't want to be in even a small city nor on the access/egress routes to one (didn't want to wake up one day to the zombie hordes).

Blue States were immediately off the list as well for obvious reasons. Though I am given pause by AZ's mere 4 point spread between Trump/Hillary and we did manage to pick one of the few blue counties in the state. Hopefully our two conservative votes can help. One benefit of the reason the county is blue (poverty) is that it is also the county with the lowest property taxes from what I am told. Mine are $500ish a year and I was informed that buying a similar property in the next county over would have tripled that.

We have been out to the property twice since closing and will be spending another 10 days there starting Sunday. With each visit we are liking it more and are looking forward to living there full time.
 
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#74 ·
We went to Flag on Sunday and it was damn cold. Glad we went Sunday. Monday it snowed. It also snowed about an inch at a cowoker's cabin in Walker which is about 10 miles south of Prescott in the Bradshaws.
 
#75 ·
Random Thoughts:

1. Wind is a fact of life in Saint Johns. Not Wyoming windy, but the windiest area I have lived outside of Wyoming.

2. Cellular One or Verizon is all you are going to get in the White Mountains area.

3. I would not plan on the main roads from the Valley being available from the South if WROL happens. I doubt the 87 would stay open to Payson, and it is very doubtful that it stays open over the rim. Same for the 60 to Globe and through the Salt River Canyon and the reservations. I know folks from Young will shut the backroad that goes up the rim if it looks sketchy-- they have done so before and that was when there still was rule of law.

Folks up here don't want the Valley "flatlander" hoard anywhere around them and they have plans to deal with such if it is needed. I would not plan on anything in the White Mountains being a primary bug out location from the Valley-- unless you have an aircraft. If you get stuck on the way up, that is some of the roughest 200 miles of terrain to hoof it over in the USA. Highest temperatures in summer, straight up and down (mainly up), frequent snow and freezing rain in the winter, loose bolder's the size of cars, lots of areas to get "holed up in" and no cover till you hit the tree line, which won't happen until you are way North of the first Apache reservation, and you will then still have to cross the second. Walking up the rim when folks above you don't want you coming up... that is suicide.

4. If you want to buy land, well you missed some of the best opportunities. Prices are going sky-high the last 3 years.

5. If you are considering relocation, I would also look at all other towns in the White Mountains, (Springerville, Snowflake, Alpine). Land and homes cost more money in those other towns than in Saint John's and Concho, but it is less economically depressed.

6. Note that the "big city" of Show Low and Pinetop/Lakeside are about 15,000 people for the entire metro area. It is really less most of the year, but much more on three day weekends. If you need to come into "the big city" to shop, don't bother on a three day weekend-- it is a zoo.
 
#76 ·
Random Thoughts:
3. I would not plan on the main roads from the Valley being available from the South if WROL happens. I doubt the 87 would stay open to Payson, and it is very doubtful that it stays open over the rim. Same for the 60 to Globe and through the Salt River Canyon and the reservations. I know folks from Young will shut the backroad that goes up the rim if it looks sketchy-- they have done so before and that was when there still was rule of law.
Folks up here don't want the Valley "flatlander" hoard anywhere around them and they have plans to deal with such if it is needed. I would not plan on anything in the White Mountains being a primary bug out location from the Valley-- unless you have an aircraft. If you get stuck on the way up, that is some of the roughest 200 miles of terrain to hoof it over in the USA. Highest temperatures in summer, straight up and down (mainly up), frequent snow and freezing rain in the winter, loose bolder's the size of cars, lots of areas to get "holed up in" and no cover till you hit the tree line, which won't happen until you are way North of the first Apache reservation, and you will then still have to cross the second. Walking up the rim when folks above you don't want you coming up... that is suicide.
I don't discount the difficulties up to and including hostile roadblocks and difficult terrain. But - there are few better, or even as good, options IMO. Plus, passing through en route to owned property and carrying my own supplies seems to me to be more likely ok'd than being a vagrant wanting shelter and resupply. The alternative would be staying put in the valley? Yeah, nah.
 
#77 ·
Made the big move (20' UHaul with appliances, heavy furniture and household goods) over the weekend. Loaded Friday, drove 8hrs Sat, unloaded Sunday and drove 8hrs back to CA on Monday. Talk about tired!!

Now just a small load of lighter stuff and we will be finally out of CA and fully living in St John's at the end of this month.
 
#80 ·
Very useful thank you! I knew about 60% of this - but not the other 40% which is more important esp. regarding political leanings and the police background.

One of the reasons - the major reason - I presently cache most vital stuff underground and currently do not plan to have even a small shed or lean-to aboveground unless/until I have to move in full-time after a SFTF event, is the well-documented crime rate esp. but not only on unoccupied property. But considering where I'd be coming from, I believe it'd be a move from a fire to a frying-pan.

And, the price of off-highway bare land (and emergency water access) near Concho was and is still right for me in context.

(Also - during my travels I compile a composite Prius-driving, man-bun, stretched-ear-hole-piercings and nose-ring index for locations which turns out to be quite accurate in quickly assessing the overall FQ (Feral Quotient) in situ.)
 
#81 ·
The "part of our defense" comment was a compliment. Having you mountain dwellers block the passes to keep the zombie horde out of your area peripherally benefits those of us on the far side as it reroutes them away from our area as well.

I was aware of the Blue vote in Apache County and it did give me pause but since it is pretty much due to just the Rez it isn't too bad. The rest of our criteria were met by the property and the State itself is Red (though admittedly in danger of purple). As to the economically depressed part I would venture that has more to do with the lions share of the population (the Rez) not paying anything in the way of taxes into the county coffers then just the fact they vote blue.

That is the biggest impetus behind the push to form a new county out of the taxpaying parts of Apache and Navajo counties that excludes the Rez.

This is a big part of my security system....


Since neighbor has started parking his patrol car at home crime has basically gone to zero in our area. St John's cops tell him the miscreants are actively avoiding our area now.

As for LE/EMT/Fire I expect no timely response from any of them. Apache County is the 6th largest in the US and there simply aren't enough Sheriffs to do much beyond take reports. IIRC most of the Deputies are further concentrated on the Rez as that is where most of the county's population is located anyways.

Even in San Bernardino County back in CA (largest in US) unless there was something directly linking a suspect to a crime, you just got a report taken as well. When asked by a group of residents out in my St John's AO about what to do concerning trespassers, a Sheriff's Deputy responded..."you got guns right?".

According to my cop neighbor the area from Concho to Show Low is RIFE with theft. City Data showed just about every property had been hit at one time or another. For St John's what we have is pretty much confined to city limits and the west side of town. Hard to be sneaky in my area when there is only a single access road and it doesn't go anywhere so they can't say they were just passing through.
 
#82 ·
In countries I have worked where there was political (= corruption), economic (= effects of corruption), or post-natural-disaster partial-collapse - (occasionally all three) - the most dangerous places were very big cities, or comparatively-rich enclaves in the midst of rural poverty.

I may be entirely mistaken (which could be a fatal miscalculation in actual post-SHTF WROL) but it seems to me that the crims who'd pillage would move on and out to places where pillaging would be more profitable to them; e.g. Pinetop, Prescott etc. That, the lack of proximity to a highway, and the price of land are reasons (amongst others) I abandoned my first idea / location at Camp Verde.
 
#84 ·
I may be entirely mistaken (which could be a fatal miscalculation in actual post-SHTF WROL) but it seems to me that the crims who'd pillage would move on and out to places where pillaging would be more profitable to them; e.g. Pinetop, Prescott etc. That, the lack of proximity to a highway, and the price of land are reasons (amongst others) I abandoned my first idea / location at Camp Verde.
In a WROL situation, I think you are correct. But crime after WROL and crime before it are probably two different beasts entirely.
 
#83 ·
Local dirtbags are usually well known and in a world WROL could be easily removed from the population if need be.
 
#85 ·
We did our final move over the weekend finishing up on Tuesday and have nothing left in CA now. It was an ordeal involving 5 hrs of sleep in 60 hrs, driving 1500 miles and blowing 3 tires on the trailer (I think I was slightly overloaded) but it's over.
 
#86 ·
Greetings, neighbors.

Several weeks ago we had a meeting with the Navajo County Sheriff's Office over serial thieves and druggies. Did any of you go? I was the one sitting near the door who suggested we get together on a web site so we could exchange information on suspicious activity.

Basically, the high points of the meeting were that you can't use deadly force against, or assault someone for, taking your property. And even if you are justified in defending your life or that of someone else, you can still be sued civilly by the thief. On man has had the same person steal from him over and over because he knows the police won't do anything, and his victim is not allowed to do anything to him to stop him. The sheriff's office said to keep good records and photos of your property with serial numbers, etc., and keep in in multiple places--not on your computer because they might take that, too.

It seems that Apache county is worse than Navajo county, and since the jail tax didn't get passed, Navajo County will be losing officer positions. The sheriff's office is already spread extremely thin, and they welcome people to act as their eyes and ears, if anyone's interested in that.

Had I known that the crime out here is this insane, I would have gone elsewhere, even if the cost were higher. I've been robbed numerous times, and have had trouble with a stalker who doesn't want to accept the fact that I now own the property.

Congratulations, Steve. Best of luck to you in keeping the criminals off your property. I really do wish you well in that.

Edited to add: People from both Navajo and Apache counties were there. I live walking distance from the county line.
 
#88 · (Edited)
As in all things real estate it's about location, location, location. I think that besides the higher then average crime issue you are also plagued by the residual of the type of former owner and his activities.

A firm message delivered while holding a shotgun (that perhaps accidentally discharges) might help. Women are notoriously bad with firearms after all. :D:

Also, with no reasonable expectation of timely law enforcement response, it can quickly become a, "I was in fear for my life" moment to have an aggressive stalker show up and threaten you.

Are you living on property full time now?

As to my location the property has been basically uninhabited (though fully furnished) for most of its 16 years and afaik has only been broken into once, a long time ago. We have owned it for over two years and at best were only there 2 weeks a month during that time until our final move and nothing was touched.

If you are considering relocating, there are two properties on the market near me. One is bare land but the other has a house on it. I can get more info if you or anyone else wants it.

On Edit: The odds of a thief winning a civil suit after being shot while robbing a single female are pretty much zero.
 
#87 ·
Remember the three esses.
 
#89 ·
I'm here full time, and more than one person has mentioned that this used to be a drug dealer's house. I threw out some no longer usable stuff that would suggest that's true as soon as I bought the place, so you're undoubtedly correct on dealing with the residual.

A neighbor and I plan to get together this afternoon to discuss the latest goings-on. I really like this place and it's paid for so I'd hate to move, although the thought has crossed my mind more than a few times because of the crime.
 
#90 ·
Having at least one neighbor you can count on helps as you can both keep an eye on each others houses. Take note of vehicles that don't belong in area and if they linger head out with shotgun to have a chat.

Also set up cameras (both obvious and hidden) to record any bad guys in the act. Then it moves beyond a he said, she said thing when you contact the Sheriff as there is hard evidence.
 
#93 ·
PG, this is why I like Yavapai County.
 
#94 ·
That county is growing in population as people move up from Phoenix and down from Flagstaff. How are property costs and taxes doing?

With the influx of city dwellers you might find the red/blue line shifting a bit in a few years.
 
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#97 ·
Hello Steve and welcome! You hadn't yet made the final move when I first came across this thread. I've been lurking in this thread thinking of good replies to make, but eleven11 definitely hit all the points and then some on the last page. Great post eleven11.

So, as I mentioned in another thread here, eleven11 confirms what I said about this area. I first moved here in 1996, left in 2004, returned in 2016 and it has changed quite a bit, but again eleven11 has everything I wanted to say pretty much covered so I'll just do this:

Howdy neighbors of the like minded type from where I am.

p.s. I think the biggest shock was hearing the Ashton's Salon ads on the radio. Don't hear them much anymore, but a year or so ago, it would just make me . . . .
 
#98 ·
Prepping Gal I don't remember if it was mentioned but get yourself a protection trained dog (or two)...large ones.
 
#99 ·
I grew up in Navajo County. I know it’s dubbed the Meth Capital of the US but I had never been robbed. 50 acres of BOL in Concho (Apache County) left unattended with no problems. 160 acres in Snowflake; occasional trespasser even with a fenced and gated premises. I’ve never heard of so much crime in the areas. I don’t make it back enough but I have the occasional check-in by volunteers.
 
#102 ·
According to my LEO neighbor it's all about location. The area in general sees a lot of crime (theft/domestic violence) but it is less in some places then others. Depends on the neighbors I guess.
 
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#103 ·
Crossed paths with this guy in my driveway the other day. Nice sized gopher snake to help keep the rodents under control.

 
#106 ·
Took care of the last vestige of CA today when I took wife to Show Low MVD to get her AZ license.

I got my AZ drivers license over a year ago but she had misplaced her naturalization and other paperwork some time ago and we didn't find it until unpacking the final load.
 
#107 ·
Property next to us went on the market day before yesterday so now we have to decide if we want to buy it or just hope that someone cool does.

The realtor contacted us over a week ago prior to the listing going live and we discussed that (absent some dummy coming along) he was asking way too much. So we made a cash offer we would be willing to pay for it. Att he turned the offer down but she has now come back that he would indeed take appreciably less then asking price Though still more then we want to pay and we haven't made a counter yet.

Torn as there are several scenarios...
1: We buy it but deplete disposable cash reserve
2: It doesn't sell and just stays empty as many properties out here have done.
3: Some idiot douchebag picks it up and wants to complain about shooting, etc
4: Possibly get a cool pro-2A neighbor to give more bodies to man the line out here.
4: A year or two goes by and we could possibly pick it up for even less then our offer.
 
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#108 ·
On a different subject, found out the County has no ordinances against nor issue with my shooting on the 120ish acres of bare land they own that abuts my property. Sheriff said I just couldn't be shooting toward other structures (none around to worry about) and that even putting up a berm and/or steel targets was ok.

Of course since it isn't private property I know that any targets that walk away are on me but there is pretty much zero chance of others being out in that area that I would be unaware of.
 
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#111 ·
Well seller turned down our second offer so now I guess it's a waiting game to see how long he will let it sit on the market before he accepts reality. Though there is always the possibility that they might find a sucker.

Another (similar) lot near us has been on market for over 400 days so far despite them asking much less.
 
#115 ·
My buddy from post #103 came up to the house earlier today.
 
#116 ·
Got the slab poured in front of the shop last Friday. Also did a small stoop in front of the man door on the end of the building. Due to the weather they had to delay removing the forms and I am waiting on the delivery of a few loads of fill dirt to level things out around it.

 
#121 ·
deleted - TMI
 
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