SHTF. You can only grab one rifle: Which do you take? - Page 28 - Survivalist Forum
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View Poll Results: SHTF - Which do you grab?
AR15 / M16 type system 118 67.43%
AK-47 or similar system 29 16.57%
M14 type system 28 16.00%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Today, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
Interesting how people imagine, in their mind's eye, all the action occurring in daylight.

I see it time and again in these kinds of musings. Perfect vistas, excellent friendly positions, perfect weather, good situational awareness of an opponent who conveniently exposes himself... and always in daytime. Just like back on that flat range everyone practices on.

What are you gonna do the other half of the 24 hour day? Sleep? Cede the night to the other fellows? Call a Time Out? Unless you're a world class shot with very expensive gear & training... there's damn few 1000+ yard targets presenting themselves in the dark. Or in abysmal visibility weather (rain, fog, snow, dust storms, wild fire or burning structural smoke, etc). The kind that well trained and motivated troops love, love, love to use for getting in close.

Outside of vast open spaces (coastlines, featureless plains, high desert, rooftops/long straight urban streets, or bare mountain sides) where you become unfortunately compromised (sky-lighted or contrasted), there are few places for such long ranged engagement attempts. I can think of few reasons to engage anyone (in a non-military scenario) at 1200 meters... thus compromising your presence. Deliberate far ambush by fires, harassing fire, or dedicated sniper offensive role perhaps. Especially if the enemy is dumb enough to walk out into open country where only micro-cover exists.

Why not just walk away & find some unassailable cover/concealment? Or a better ambush or defensive position? Or present a Feint or Demonstration (look 'em up) in order to lure the enemy away from his chosen path? Absent PID of some specifically known & anticipated threat, who are you going to open up on randomly at 3/4 of a mile? And why? Hell, without good spotter optics and training... damn few can even pick out a potential target at that distance.

No matter what you feel, believe, or imagine... the enemy is, by definition, uncooperative. Sometimes unpredictable. Sometimes he's better than (if not equal to) your best laid plans. Because he has plans too. And he always gets a vote.

Hunter becomes hunted. Your first inkling of that may be when he opens up on you, from hidden location/s at well inside of 300 meters. After flanking you unobserved with a hidden element. Or after springing a well laid ambush or initiating an assault line. The place where 90% of small arms engagements historically occur. Especially in vegetated, uneven, or built up terrain.

As far as shooting at armed groups from great distances... I'm hitting anyone that looks in charge (or demonstrably takes charge after the first shots), anyone that looks like they're able to communicate over an electronic device, K9 handlers, and anyone that mans a crew served or other distance over-match weapon. And most especially anyone who reacts like a trained sniper (or worse... a sniper/spotter team) and starts to glass for me. Extra credit for Point Men or Scouts.

I dunno, maybe 'cause I'm just a dumb retired grunt, but as an individual civilian during some nebulous SHTF, I value Mobility (lighter handier load), Sustained Fire (more ammo), Night Engagement Capability (what the present day AR is optimized for), and the CQB Ergonomic Edge (superior gun fighting controls, recoil management, & handling) in close engagements (which means most of 'em). Those things are far more important than the ability to penetrate an extra layer of brick or auto glass with a heavier bullet. Or plink around the edges of machine gun & RPG engagement ranges.

In that respect, it's kinda like the equation that sees modern 9mm fighting pistols (like a G19, Smith M&P, or CZ SP-01) having an edge over nominally ballistically superior guns in bigger calibers. They're all so close in actual practical terminal effect, that the easier recoil management, training ammo affordability, form factor (size/weight), and superior magazine capacity outweigh the purely incremental ballistic advantages of larger caliber pistols (even if those are perfectly effective as well).

For me, the AR pattern wins for similar reasons. I can travel farther, faster, with more ammo, with my ass less winded, and with better fighting ergonomics than with the other two choices. Not to mention that (in standard military format), the AR is the most accurate of the bunch. Even before you add in a free float rail.

I'm also biased because I've invested so much more trigger time on that gun... and it always worked for me... wherever I found myself. I'm not worried about some random Jamoke outgunning me at distance with a bone stock M1A pattern rifle. He won't...unless he's a very rare kind of cat... a superlative marksman. He won't with an AK pattern carbine either.

For the record, all three guns (AR, AK, & M14) are excellent combat weapons. But, for me, the aggregate nuanced advantages push the AR into first place choice for a fighting gun. Assuming a quality standard version is chosen. So don't compare accurized AK or M14 versions to merely standard model ARs. Because the AR design lends itself to going there too. Whether a 5.56 SPR or a 7.62 Larue OBR.

BTW, I actually did have to wade through airport Hare Krishnas (while decked out in class As) back in the day. Not an uncommon experience for PCS or TDY travelling troops. Which is why that movie scene is so fracking hilarious. Fired my first military M14 in 1975 (University ROTC). Still own an early production (USGI parts) Springfield. So 45 years with the platform for me. Including about 23 years on issued M21/M25 rifles. I'm actually very fond of the design.

Especially if you ever have to bayonet or butt stroke someone. Seen both. A friend bayoneted...pinned to the ground through a love handle. Much blood but not fatal. And myself clubbed by an issue M14. Hard. Knocked the frack out. Still have the suture scar from that metal folding buttplate on my hairline.

RLTW/DOL
HMMMM....

JUNGLE CLOSE in the dark,

Folks in the bush 40-50yds out popping in and out of the jungle deep firing 7.62X39s

WHAT ROUND worked better in that environment?????

GETTING to the little people who 20yds in felt pretty safe from the .22 unless concentrated extended fire was used to chew through the green that was penetrated fairly well by that obsolete.30

Just musing here.....

YEEEEAAAAHHHHHH...... the M14/7.62 has absolutely no place in close quarters combat in the dark and deep. A 22 would be much better.

IF someone doesn't have the upper body strength to sling around an M1A in close shooting, by all means supply them with a much lighter rifle.
It makes sense... kids play with plastic toys
Men use wood and steel tools.
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Old Today, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
HMMMM....

JUNGLE CLOSE in the dark,

Folks in the bush 40-50yds out popping in and out of the jungle deep firing 7.62X39s

WHAT ROUND worked better in that environment?????

GETTING to the little people who 20yds in felt pretty safe from the .22 unless concentrated extended fire was used to chew through the green that was penetrated fairly well by that obsolete.30

Just musing here.....

YEEEEAAAAHHHHHH...... the M14/7.62 has absolutely no place in close quarters combat in the dark and deep. A 22 would be much better.

IF someone doesn't have the upper body strength to sling around an M1A in close shooting, by all means supply them with a much lighter rifle.
It makes sense... kids play with plastic toys
Men use wood and steel tools.

Are you by chance a member of the Society for Creative Anachronisms? I always love it when the boomers chime in.
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Old Today, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Are you by chance a member of the Society for Creative Anachronisms? I always love it when the boomers chime in.
NOT ONLY that, I have also been called a LUDDITE and a Misanthrope.
Not that they are justly awarded.
I am using a computer and that is not Ludditish(?) and I do like my wife and 2 or 3 other people in my life... so there's that.

I just know what works for me in the world I have lived in and experienced and if going into battle whether at 10 feet or 1000 yds my choice is the M1A and the 1911. Not because they are old tech and I refuse to change, it is just because they are the best choice for any rational being who wants all opportunities afforded my weapons choice.
Remember
Kids play with plastic toys
men use tools of steel and wood.
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Old Today, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
HMMMM....



JUNGLE CLOSE in the dark,



Folks in the bush 40-50yds out popping in and out of the jungle deep firing 7.62X39s



WHAT ROUND worked better in that environment?????



GETTING to the little people who 20yds in felt pretty safe from the .22 unless concentrated extended fire was used to chew through the green that was penetrated fairly well by that obsolete.30



Just musing here.....



YEEEEAAAAHHHHHH...... the M14/7.62 has absolutely no place in close quarters combat in the dark and deep. A 22 would be much better.



IF someone doesn't have the upper body strength to sling around an M1A in close shooting, by all means supply them with a much lighter rifle.

It makes sense... kids play with plastic toys

Men use wood and steel tools.
.22 better than an M14 at close quarters?

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