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Old 06-28-2020, 06:02 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is online now
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Originally Posted by slackercruster View Post
I agree. The 2 drum monster is pretty heavy. Maybe OK for a tripod mounted gun, but makes the gun very heavy to lug around unless you are a big he-man type.
No one has recommended the dual drum style mags.

The D60 or Romy 75s are pretty compact. And while I know the D60 is 10oz heavier than two 30rd Magpuls (hardly a he-man amount), I would venture the Romy drum weighs equal to or less than the 2.5 steel mags it replaces.
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Old 06-28-2020, 06:08 PM
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I keep a Glock with 33 rounder mag in car and 2 extra 33 round mags. (See gun on bottom right.) One 33 mag has nylon coated bullets.

Using a AR with a 2 drum mag while driving is not practical. I do have a SBR in the trunk, but it is not realistic to use while driving and shooting even with the a 5 or 10 round mag. And to shoot the 5.56 within the car cabin would ruin your ears. It is for defense outside of the car if pinned down. If you put a suppressor on the SBR you have lost all the advantage of the length. See the top FN for an example. Makes the pistol unpractical in length and does not really do much for sound reduction. A suppressor makes the gun 'almost' useable without ear protection.

Within the car the barrel length is critical, not the magazine length so much. Now if you want to shoot your windshield out and rest the AR on your dashboard, then maybe you can swing it for shooting a car in front of you. But I can't use an AR shooting out of the side window while driving. And even if the threat is in front, I'd prefer the Glock...I can handle and aim it.
Again please point out where I or anyone has recommended the dual drum setup?

It you roll up on people intending to kill you, your hearing is the last thing on your mind and one can never determine 'which' direction the situation might require firing before it actually happens.

I can easily one hand my 11.5" AR pistol even with the D60. Resting it on my outside mirror is also an option if I have to fire in that direction as I am backing up.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:27 PM
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I agree. The 2 drum monster is pretty heavy. Maybe OK for a tripod mounted gun, but makes the gun very heavy to lug around unless you are a big he-man type.
You need to tell that to all the guys toting around SAWS....
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:35 PM
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So your answer is, "no you don't have any precedence". And you are presenting your "sound opinion" as if it is the word of god handed down from on high and the final say on the matter. While dismissing out of hand what others have stated their real world use has been.

You are worried about moving parts in a feeding device for a weapon that has way more moving parts that need to be timed together.

As for the military not using drums....

https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/...ound-drum.html

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...group-soldier/


https://www.militarytimes.com/off-du...r-on-the-fire/

French SOF in Mali


Magpul D50 for 7.62x51
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...chine-gunners/

I believe this is a Secret Service team


Also shopping around gets you the D60 and Romy drums for less than $100.
Well, I admit you raise some interesting points. And I enjoy learning.

First, the top article is dated 3 years ago, and states the USMC is "testing" the D60 mags and quotes a senior officer who states he hates drum mags, but giving these a shot b/c they preliminary seem to work. Testing doesn't mean squat. The military tests a lot of gear and rarely adopts it. Adoption of gear tested is probably less than 1%.

The question is, then, in 3 years have the US Marine Corps actually adopted the D60 in significant numbers? I don't believe so... No. In several pages of searches, the USMC has not yet (or ever will) adopted the D60.... Hmmmm... that's noteworthy. Three years of testing, and NOT adopted by one of the best fighting ground forces in the entire world.

Secondly, some 7th Group Soldier in an unknown role in an unknown location has a D60. Big deal. Those SF guys often bring their own equipment, and he may just be posing with it. Those teams also are beta testers for gear all the time. Our team tested all sorts of gear, including the SCAR L M16. I don't think they were adopted in big numbers though, and ultimately canceled about a decade ago. Military tries a lot of gear, and adopts very little of it.

In my defense, I don't take ANY of my training ques from the French and I was never in Mali, and that US Secret Service CAT photo was apparently well past my days and last deployment periods in Iraq. And I only see 2 drums, but a LOT of standard mags. Of the 4 men, we can only see 2 drums in the guns, we see 1 standard mag in the gun, we are shielded from seeing the lead man's loaded mag, but they all have standard mags. Their mission is mostly convoy operations in GMC Suburban type vehicles (as opposed to dismounted) where belted ammo would be impractical. I stand by my statement that I never saw any when I was deployed. And that they are not used in WIDE NUMBERS by any militaries. Small tactical teams notwithstanding, I stand by that statement as well.

Small tactical teams are not hamstrung by budget constraints, and they operate in teams in far different scenarios, and with unlimited resources and supply drops, reinforcements, lots of barrels on targets, etc.

Anyway, in 2011 a Seal Team killed Osama Bin Laden in the singular most important operation since 9/11/01 - to kill or capture OBL. No stone unturned and nothing left to chance. They presumably used the absolute very best equipment available in the world.



Not a drum magazine used just 9 years ago. The singular most elite unit on the planet, taking out #1 wanted man in the world in a anticipated fortified foreign compound of unknown enemies, at night, under intense circumstances where important equipment failed. And they used, plain ole' 30 round mags. Perhaps the D60 is the cat's meow. I'd say it's far too early to say for sure. The United States Marines apparently haven't adopted it, nor any other big branches in big numbers as far as I know... That's a hint.

So, I guess, if 30 round mags are good enough for the most elite unit in the world on the most important singular mission in 20 years to take out the #1 wanted bad guy in the world, then I suppose they're good enough for my pedestrian needs.

YMMV.

Ironically, this is sorta like the SCAR Mk16 situation. It doesn't do anything much better than an M4, and costs like 5x as much. Someone sees a guy in the SF is using it, so thinks it's the best thing in the world. Eh, I know better. If you want to spend the 10x premium on cool guy gear that doesn't do anything, be my guest.

Enjoy.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:06 AM
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...and that US Secret Service CAT photo was apparently well past my days and last deployment periods in Iraq. And I only see 2 drums, but a LOT of standard mags. Of the 4 men, we can only see 2 drums in the guns, we see 1 standard mag in the gun, we are shielded from seeing the lead man's loaded mag, but they all have standard mags. Their mission is mostly convoy operations in GMC Suburban type vehicles (as opposed to dismounted) where belted ammo would be impractical. ...
Almost exactly the scenario depicted by Rock6 at post 21.

Quote:
our security teams travel with a D60 drum in their carbines and standard mags on their plate carriers.
https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...8&postcount=21

My group is pretty well covered at anything else pertinent to this discussion (arms, ammo, standard mags) so if I can give two or three of the younger guys a slight edge, in vehicles, for less than a couple of months of bourbon, beer and pizzas - why wouldn't I do so?
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:11 PM
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Well, I admit you raise some interesting points. And I enjoy learning.

First, the top article is dated 3 years ago, and states the USMC is "testing" the D60 mags and quotes a senior officer who states he hates drum mags, but giving these a shot b/c they preliminary seem to work. Testing doesn't mean squat. The military tests a lot of gear and rarely adopts it. Adoption of gear tested is probably less than 1%.

The question is, then, in 3 years have the US Marine Corps actually adopted the D60 in significant numbers? I don't believe so... No. In several pages of searches, the USMC has not yet (or ever will) adopted the D60.... Hmmmm... that's noteworthy. Three years of testing, and NOT adopted by one of the best fighting ground forces in the entire world.

Secondly, some 7th Group Soldier in an unknown role in an unknown location has a D60. Big deal. Those SF guys often bring their own equipment, and he may just be posing with it. Those teams also are beta testers for gear all the time. Our team tested all sorts of gear, including the SCAR L M16. I don't think they were adopted in big numbers though, and ultimately canceled about a decade ago. Military tries a lot of gear, and adopts very little of it.

In my defense, I don't take ANY of my training ques from the French and I was never in Mali, and that US Secret Service CAT photo was apparently well past my days and last deployment periods in Iraq. And I only see 2 drums, but a LOT of standard mags. Of the 4 men, we can only see 2 drums in the guns, we see 1 standard mag in the gun, we are shielded from seeing the lead man's loaded mag, but they all have standard mags. Their mission is mostly convoy operations in GMC Suburban type vehicles (as opposed to dismounted) where belted ammo would be impractical. I stand by my statement that I never saw any when I was deployed. And that they are not used in WIDE NUMBERS by any militaries. Small tactical teams notwithstanding, I stand by that statement as well.

Small tactical teams are not hamstrung by budget constraints, and they operate in teams in far different scenarios, and with unlimited resources and supply drops, reinforcements, lots of barrels on targets, etc.
No one in this thread has ever stated that going ALL drums was an option. And now you are moving the goal posts from, "the military doesn't use drums" to "they are not in widespread use". Also that because it was after your service (service which was before the D60 was invented) that current use of drums is somehow irrelevant.

While the French in general are a bunch of pansies by all accounts of those who have worked with them, the French SOF guys are pretty on point.

And that CAT team is tasked with protecting the single most important person in the world and they have selected the (according to you, worthless) D60 as part of their equipment. Kind of speaks volumes doesn't it?



Quote:
Anyway, in 2011 a Seal Team killed Osama Bin Laden in the singular most important operation since 9/11/01 - to kill or capture OBL. No stone unturned and nothing left to chance. They presumably used the absolute very best equipment available in the world.



Not a drum magazine used just 9 years ago. The singular most elite unit on the planet, taking out #1 wanted man in the world in a anticipated fortified foreign compound of unknown enemies, at night, under intense circumstances where important equipment failed. And they used, plain ole' 30 round mags. Perhaps the D60 is the cat's meow. I'd say it's far too early to say for sure. The United States Marines apparently haven't adopted it, nor any other big branches in big numbers as far as I know... That's a hint.

So, I guess, if 30 round mags are good enough for the most elite unit in the world on the most important singular mission in 20 years to take out the #1 wanted bad guy in the world, then I suppose they're good enough for my pedestrian needs.

YMMV.

Ironically, this is sorta like the SCAR Mk16 situation. It doesn't do anything much better than an M4, and costs like 5x as much. Someone sees a guy in the SF is using it, so thinks it's the best thing in the world. Eh, I know better. If you want to spend the 10x premium on cool guy gear that doesn't do anything, be my guest.

Enjoy.
Nice straw man argument....the D60 wasn't released until 2015 so pretty hard for the SEALS to have been refusing to use them in 2011.


You know maybe I just never noticed before but it seems after your relocation that you have become pretty bitchy. Are things not going so well up there and this forum is your release?
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Old 06-29-2020, 12:39 PM
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...
And that CAT team is tasked with protecting the single most important person in the world and they have selected the (according to you, worthless) D60 as part of their equipment. Kind of speaks volumes doesn't it?...

..Nice straw man argument....the D60 wasn't released until 2015 so pretty hard for the SEALS to have been refusing to use them in 2011...

...You know maybe I just never noticed before but it seems after your relocation that you have become pretty bitchy. Are things not going so well up there and this forum is your release?
Whatever. Re-read the thread. I've made my points and grown tired of the nonsense here.
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:46 PM
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....

Ian from Forgotten Weapons did a solid explanation on YT.
NO evidence that ole Ian has ANY military training or credentials. Not even a basement warrior.

A D50 drum on a AR10 w/bipod makes a acceptable poor mans suppressive fire weapon for use from a defensive position. (not having a beltfeed MG available). But as noted, the drum is damn heavy and thus not likely for use on a patrol.
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:03 PM
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Whatever. Re-read the thread. I've made my points and grown tired of the nonsense here.
I don't need to re-read the thread as I pointed out your inconsistencies already.

Yes you stated your opinion long ago, then spent the rest of the thread trying to browbeat those who disagreed with you into submission. As if your word was the final say from on high on the matter.

You don't like nor want to use a drum and that is a valid opinion to hold. However your statement that they have absolutely no use is not and from the pictures I posted, it's one the rest of the world doesn't seem to agree with.

And to get this back on topic, the best drums are from Magpul (AR15/10), XProducts (AR15/10 and others) and for the AK you can go Chinese (if you want to drop the coin) or Rommanian (which are made in China anyways).
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
....

Ian from Forgotten Weapons did a solid explanation on YT.
NO evidence that ole Ian has ANY military training or credentials. Not even a basement warrior.

A D50 drum on a AR10 w/bipod makes a acceptable poor mans suppressive fire weapon for use from a defensive position. (not having a beltfeed MG available). But as noted, the drum is damn heavy and thus not likely for use on a patrol.
Interesting! I haven't previously considered the D50 as an option. It potentially has its place in some setups.

I took my PSA AR-10 Beast out to their outdoor range last friday to try to sight in at 100, 200 & 300 yards. I typically load up Magpul 25's, but this might have come in handy for less mag changes.

However...at $142+ per D50 drum...that has a serious ouch factor.
I can buy seven 25-round mags for that price.

On the other hand, using a bipod either in the prone position or on the shooting table makes mag changes a little more difficult. This would have reduced the irritation of changing as often.

FYI, I have a nice Vortex traditional scope for deer hunting on top, so I can't just flip the rifle over for mag changes as easily.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:34 PM
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NO evidence that ole Ian has ANY military training or credentials. Not even a basement warrior.
.
I worked with him a little way back when.

Great dude, per him he does not and makes no pretentious of such.

Glad he's done so well.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:35 PM
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Whatever. Re-read the thread. I've made my points and grown tired of the nonsense here.
Yes, we can see you are tired of having your "points" absolutely demolished and the fact you have no rebuttle....
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:55 PM
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. The singular most elite unit on the planet, .
lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:09 PM
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Interesting! I haven't previously considered the D50 as an option. It potentially has its place in some setups.

I took my PSA AR-10 Beast out to their outdoor range last friday to try to sight in at 100, 200 & 300 yards. I typically load up Magpul 25's, but this might have come in handy for less mag changes.

However...at $142+ per D50 drum...that has a serious ouch factor.
I can buy seven 25-round mags for that price.

On the other hand, using a bipod either in the prone position or on the shooting table makes mag changes a little more difficult. This would have reduced the irritation of changing as often.

FYI, I have a nice Vortex traditional scope for deer hunting on top, so I can't just flip the rifle over for mag changes as easily.
I have the XProducts 50rd drum for my PTR91 (Magpul doesn't make a mag for it) and it is all metal so even heavier than your SR25 version. That thing is rock solid and dependable.

I plan on it being a keep them at a distance for as long as I can setup. But I also have about 100 20rd aluminum mags for it as well.

For a price comparison the drum was $175 while mil-surp G3 mags were $3 each. Had I not been in CA at the time those G3 mags would have run me $1 each.

The cost of mags was why I went PTR91 over FAL.
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:12 PM
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I worked with him a little way back when.

Great dude, per him he does not and makes no pretentious of such.

Glad he's done so well.
He is a bottomless fount of obscure weapons minutia and I greatly enjoy his videos.
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Old 06-29-2020, 10:26 PM
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He is a bottomless fount of obscure weapons minutia and I greatly enjoy his videos.
flat out:
He knows more minutia than me.

But me, him, and another buddy are "kindred gunnuts" and very much enjoyed going all "gun nut talk" that most people would be bored with/couldn't follow.

I knew more "real world" my buddy grew up in a custom shop, and Ian.
So it complemented one another well.... (Each of us could learn from, but follow along with the others nitch.)

Good times, and like I said: great guy, very humble and truly loves the subject.

I was involved with this and I forget what else:
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:54 PM
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Yes, we can see you are tired of having your "points" absolutely demolished and the fact you have no rebuttle....
No "rebuttle" to your personal attacks is necessary, and you "demolished" nothing except your own reputation and character. I'm not going to stoop to your and Steve's level of childishness with branch or MOS shaming. And frankly, it's pathetic for some people to take good natured gear discussions where we might actually learn from each other, and dive into assorted personal attacks. I'm honestly embarrassed for the both of you and your behavior.

I've presented facts, for which you and he can't rebut. When big military units or law enforcement adopt these in massive numbers, post about it and I'll be persuaded. But some French Fries and 1 picture of 2 America SS guys using LITERALLY 2 drums is hardly supportive of widespread drum use.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:12 AM
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No "rebuttle" to your personal attacks is necessary, and you "demolished" nothing except your own reputation and character. I'm not going to stoop to your and Steve's level of childishness with branch or MOS shaming. And frankly, it's pathetic for some people to take good natured gear discussions where we might actually learn from each other, and dive into assorted personal attacks. I'm honestly embarrassed for the both of you and your behavior.

I've presented facts, for which you and he can't rebut. When big military units or law enforcement adopt these in massive numbers, post about it and I'll be persuaded. But some French Fries and 1 picture of 2 America SS guys using LITERALLY 2 drums is hardly supportive of widespread drum use.
WHERE did I do that? I simply forgot you had served (and apologized for that) and cast no aspersions on branch/MOS.

Also NONE of use said there was widespread use, just that there was in fact use. You were the one claiming there was ZERO use and using straw man arguments trying to prove your point (SEALS in 2011 chose not to use a mag that didn't come out until 2015). Then after we showed there was indeed use you switched to the "widespread use" demand.

You have pretty much lost all respect in my eyes with this thread. As I said earlier you should go get laid.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:18 AM
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WHERE did I do that? I simply forgot you had served (and apologized for that) and cast no aspersions on branch/MOS.

Also NONE of use said there was widespread use, just that there was in fact use. You were the one claiming there was ZERO use and using straw man arguments trying to prove your point (SEALS in 2011 chose not to use a mag that didn't come out until 2015). Then after we showed there was indeed use you switched to the "widespread use" demand.

You have pretty much lost all respect in my eyes with this thread. As I said earlier you should go get laid.
Whatever dude, as I said, go back and read the thread. You have not come across very well here. Or on several other threads. Your constant drive to make personal attacks on folks who have GEAR RELATED disagreements has become epic lately.

It's like you take it personal that you are shown evidence that counters your opinion. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong. Get over it. There's no need for all the name calling and insults you throw out... And you've leveled several at me in this thread alone, all having been undeserving. Take a chill pill.

Unfortunately you're not alone and a lot of folks have become this way - taking mild discussions waaaay too far into personal jabs, insults, and nonsense territory.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:48 AM
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Not to be a richard but there are two of us with combat saying they have a place and you (iirc you never served) saying they don't.
Really? How many M4 drum mags did the Corps issue you and how many times did you use drum mags in actual combat?

None you say? Considering they were just developed a few years back and the Corps was last reported doing T&E on them and I doubt any are in significant numbers in forward units, then the answer is none.

Remarkable. So you have then, no experience with drums in combat so your experience is just as relevant as everyone else who has not used drums in combat.

And, yes, your comment was a veiled backhanded sleight appeal to some authority that doesn't exist, as I've just demonstrated. The fact you were a combat Marine is by itself impressive, but entirely irrelevant to whether D60s which have probably rarely seen any combat are good for that role. And we know for certain no US branch issued any drum mags for any infantry platforms in any big numbers anytime in decades.

Oh, and just in case you or Nomad think I have no experience with drums, here's me in the Army actually using a drum on an fully auto AK during some foreign weapons training. Not like I'm just making this up as I go.

And here's my summary. I found it to be cumbersome, the extra 20% mag/ammo weight throws off the feel, and not well balanced. And a fully auto AK with a drum is really good at heating up the barrel. I remember it distinctly. Note why my fingers are not covering near the exhaust ports on the forearm. That barrel was H-0-T. Too much rapid firing, even with pauses, and not enough mag change time. This reverts back to what I was saying, that mag changes are, in fact, necessary to preserve the barrels from burning out. It's important to maintain discipline with short bursts with full auto or short strings and a cooling period for semi-auto, allowing the barrel time to cool. Absent that, the mag change forces a pause. My opinions are based on real world application, not just watching a YT video on drum mags and pushing the "buy now" button thinking I'm all set...

But I'm just a desk jockey officer, what do I know. Right?
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