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Old 06-28-2020, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OldCorps View Post
And what you are saying then is to practice wasting ammo. Under your points, why use FA when it isn't necessary? Why train to do something that isn't needed?

No, most military personnel do not get to shoot as much as they should, as a whole. But those in the field, shoot more often then those that are not. And those in a combat area, are probably shooting a lot more often just to practice. I know we did. But we practiced techniques we would use.

It's like practicing letting your magazine drop and insserting a new one. I guess that is ok if you don't mind it falling in the mud and won't need to reload it while the firefight is going on, because it is dragging out longer then anyone expected. I guess it boils down to our individual experiences.
How do you learn to do anything properly, if you arent taught, and dont practice enough to do it without having to think about doing it?

My point is, you need to understand its uses, and know when and how to use it. You need to know how to shoot the gun, other than just the basics youre taught, and are then told your good to go.

It just makes more sense to me, to give your people the training that will make them as effective as possible with what they have, before you put them in harms way. You shouldnt have to figure that out on your own, the first time you really might need it. Dont you think?

If FA is so worthless, why is the switch on the gun in the first place?

Do like they did with the M14's, and just remove/replace the offending parts, so they are SA only, and the perceived problem is solved.
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:23 PM
hardcalibres hardcalibres is offline
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The question no one seems to be able to or want to answer, at least with some reasonable satisfaction to me anyway, is "why" is that?

I think I know the answer (ie. lack of proper training, or understanding of use, being one with the gun, etc), but a lot of people seem to want to sidestep that.

All you constantly hear is, "its ineffective".... just because.

Thats kind of like saying the "power band" on a race bike is ineffective when a lot of people saying that, dont even know its there or what youre talking about when you bring it up.

Inquiring minds and all......
I think the key factor with any gun on full auto is the size of the "cone of fire" it puts out - or in other words the angular size of the cone that starts at the muzzle that all the rounds in a burst of full auto fire, remain within. An analogy may be the way that a shotgun patterns a load of shot.

The fire is effective if a typical burst will create a pattern of rounds that is dense enough to hit a man sized target with at least one round.

Big heavy belt feds, mounted on bipods/tripods with internal recoil buffers have cones of fire that are small enough for effective fire out to a couple of hundred to several hundred metres. The size of the cone of fire is very much influenced by both the characteristics of the gun and they way it is mounted/operated.

Lightweight rifles that can fire on full auto, have cones of fire that are much larger and consequently the range out to which they can achieve that "at least one round" on target in each burst, is much shorter than belt feds.

Again applying the shotgun analogy, the belt fed is the long barreled field shotgun and the full auto rifle is more like a sawed-off shotgun.

You shot your demo target at 10 yards and got your mag dump all on - what would be the maximum range you could go to before a typical three to five round burst doesn't reliably get at least one good hit?

I agree that with good technique and practice, you can shrink the cone of fire and extend that range over what someone with less practice will achieve - but can you extend it far enough to be useful in most gunfights?

The answer would depend upon your typical engagement distance - among other things.....
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Old 06-28-2020, 07:55 PM
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The belt feds are different critters with a different purpose.

Im referring to things like the smaller, lightweight, intermediate rifle and pistol caliber guns, etc. Once you start getting into the larger 30 caliber guns (M14, G3, etc), its a bit more difficult.

For those in FA, I look at that use with them being on par with a shotgun with buck, and somewhere around 25 yards or so being the realistic max effective range. Its more meant for close up, fast, point and click type shooting.

You should still be able to keep a three round burst on target at 25 yards.

Doesnt mean you cant be effective farther out either, and if you know the gun, single shots in FA are not at all difficult with most of them, as long as its straight FA, and not a burst setting.

I think some of the misunderstandings here is, it seems a lot of people think that its to be used for "everything", and its not.
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
The belt feds are different critters with a different purpose.

Im referring to things like the smaller, lightweight, intermediate rifle and pistol caliber guns, etc. Once you start getting into the larger 30 caliber guns (M14, G3, etc), its a bit more difficult.

For those in FA, I look at that use with them being on par with a shotgun with buck, and somewhere around 25 yards or so being the realistic max effective range. Its more meant for close up, fast, point and click type shooting.

You should still be able to keep a three round burst on target at 25 yards.

Doesnt mean you cant be effective farther out either, and if you know the gun, single shots in FA are not at all difficult with most of them, as long as its straight FA, and not a burst setting.

I think some of the misunderstandings here is, it seems a lot of people think that its to be used for "everything", and its not.
Agreed.

Full auto on selective fire rifles is a niche capability.

I think the rifle cartridge (and bigger) belt feds and pistol cartridge SMGs make sense for their intended purposes.

In my experience of shooting M16, M4, Mk18, M14, Mk14, G3, G3k, HK33, HK33k, HK416, HK417, FAL, L1A1, L2A1, AUG and other rifles, shooting full sized rifle cartridges on full auto, they were the most challenging to control and the most difficult to employ effectively. But even with those, if the range was short enough, then full auto worked (and hence why many of those guns had full auto in the first place).

I found the AK47 and HK33 on full auto fell into the middle ground between 9mm SMGs and full auto 7.62x51 battle rifles on full auto - more manageable and could be used effectively out to a longer (but still relatively short) distance on rock and roll.
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Old 06-28-2020, 08:28 PM
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The mistake most make when shooting them is, they try to use the sights, and try to manhandle the gun and hold it on target, which is about impossible to do. If you try that, you cant keep any kind of sight picture past the first round, and the gun normally runs up and off to the side of the strong hand, and in short order.

If you relax and think of it as a high-pressure hose, and just "ride the gun", shooting over top of it, its very easy to keep the rounds on target. Works with all of them, but some can be a bit more challenging than others, depending on cyclic rate and/or caliber.
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Old 06-28-2020, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
The mistake most make when shooting them is, they try to use the sights, and try to manhandle the gun and hold it on target, which is about impossible to do. If you try that, you cant keep any kind of sight picture past the first round, and the gun normally runs up and off to the side of the strong hand, and in short order.
Yep - 7.62 NATO rifles with low mounted iron sights, lots of drop at the heel of the stock to suit (like the M14 and G3), non-adjustable gas systems and no significant/effective buffer are/were about the most difficult to control.

Quote:
If you relax and think of it as a high-pressure hose, and just "ride the gun", shooting over top of it, its very easy to keep the rounds on target. Works with all of them, but some can be a bit more challenging than others, depending on cyclic rate and/or caliber.
In the early part of my time, we were trained to shoot (open bolt) SMGs that way.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by beingto View Post
that bolt action and scope aint worth a damn at night and nobody with a brain will be out and about in daylight, once shtf. Everybody "thinks" that all they'll have to do is lay there and pick off enemies. Enemies can walk right up on you in the dark, folks and if they are close and all you have is a bolt action, the next day, all you can do is pray that they dont notice you, cause you'll be unable to handle a fight vs several guys with autorifles. The bolt action is a fantasy. so is having a group (that's worth a hoot). You wlll have no help and if you're out in daylight, you'l soon get shot.

Are you are 100% "SURE" about that.......The reason that I ask is my bolt action does fairly good job at night. But for roughly $7,000.00 it should also wash the cabin windows, and shovel the snow. But all it does is shoot well at night.
$7,000 for a survival bolt gun??? I would be willing to bet that a lot of of people I'm friends with can go get a Remington model 7 in 3006 or 6.5 creedmoor with a 4x16 vari and hit man sized targets more often than not at 800 -1000 yds " 8 out of ten once dialed"
Spend 2000 and 5000 on ammo and training or even better a like new used rifle for less. You don't have to have a nightforce or custom rifle.
Just shoot and learn the gun
Worked for my boys. Worn out USMC M 40's with 20,000 through them
Try it! Mikey likes it!
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:36 AM
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The comments aren't having any of it, apparently.

I am a bit confused...he keeps talking about "ARs" and then sometimes specifically he mentions AR-15. Also, all his arguments are centered around the 5.56. Is he implying that all ARs are incompetent and obsolete? Or is this just a rant against the AR-15? Or is it the 5.56 platforms (including the M16 and M4, apparently)?

And, OK, he doesn't like the AR-15. (Any AR?) Does he have another platform he thinks won't actually get a civilian killed? Does he have a better selection? I mean, anybody can **** all over somebody else's choice. That's not constructive in the least.

Also, some of his arguments are contradictory. You shouldn't use the AR-15 because it chews through a lot of ammo, especially in automatic suppressive fire. (Wouldn't all semiauto platforms have this issue?) But, the AR-15 isn't capable of automatic suppressive fire. (Again, wouldn't all semiauto platforms have this issue?)

I think if we take all his arguments seriously, we ought to just lay down and wait to die.
His point being the u.s. military chose the m16 because of its ability to provide suppressive fire (full auto). That’s the only reason it exists. It’s a trade off (full auto as opposed to longer range...more lethality...greater penetration ect)

The author is saying the semi auto ar platform gives you all the downsides (weak cartridge.....short range.....ect) and none of the upsides (full auto).
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:42 AM
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You got lucky. It was a waste of time...
It was based on major Eckhardts paper. It had valid points. Once again the u.s. military is looking for a more powerful cartridge of the caliber suggested in Eckhardts paper.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:57 AM
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In SHTF there isn't going to be ERs to fix you after taking .223 rounds so it might not kill right away but your target is still dead . Same thing for you unfortunately .
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:07 PM
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In SHTF there isn't going to be ERs to fix you after taking .223 rounds so it might not kill right away but your target is still dead . Same thing for you unfortunately .
Eventually. In Mogadishu a large number of Somali fighters simply walked to the hospital after being shot.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Hawk-Do...-2&tag=mh0b-20
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:35 PM
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Eventually. In Mogadishu a large number of Somali fighters simply walked to the hospital after being shot.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Hawk-Do...-2&tag=mh0b-20
I'm taking about infection killing them not the weenie bullets.
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:40 PM
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~1000 of them didn't. KIA. That number is not an exaggeration.
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Old 06-29-2020, 05:13 PM
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You would think if nothing else the HIGHLY documented mass shootings with AR's would have put to rest the idea that you can't rapidly kill someone with one.
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Old 06-29-2020, 05:49 PM
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Or that 7.62 x 39 is a superior-to-5.56 death ray... when it's not.

In 1989, Patrick Purdy fired 104 shots of FMJ from his semi-auto AK, at elementary school children and teachers crowded on a playground. He struck 35 victims from relatively close range. The children ranged in weight from 40 - 55 pounds. 30 survived. 5 died. The ones who died on the spot suffered unsurvivable wounds (from any caliber). CNS (head/spine) or major arterial (aorta/heart) shots.

14% lethality rate.

Wounding damage and death rates consistent with previous case studies of over 700 AK combat wounds examined in Vietnam by US Army gunshot trauma medical researchers.

I used to know plenty of Vietnam era NCOs/Officers who had been wounded by AK fire... and survived. They were my mentors & supervisors when I was a young troop. Today, I personally know several US soldiers at my former unit who've survived AK hits over in Iraq & Afghanistan. Additionally, several Iraqis & Afghans fighting for us. Not talking about body armor stops. Actual bullets into meat. Several of them continued to fight after being hit. Not that uncommon of an occurrence.

During one particular TIC, one of them was hit twice with AK-47 bullets (including one through the abdomen) and continued functioning...killing the six Iraqi guys engaging him from inside of a house. Also wounded by grenade fragments at the same time. Killed his opponents, treated two wounded comrades, and rallied his assault force. Three men hit seriously (torso/throat wounds) by close ranged AK fire that night... and all three survived.

Those friends all recovered from their wounds and returned to full duty. Interestingly enough, their 5.56 struck opponents did not.
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:28 PM
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A binary trigger is more than adequate for suppression fire and I find it easier to control than the three shot burst. YMMV. I mostly practice controlled pairs. I know the Marines like to say "one shot, one kill" but two is better than one IMHO. (you can decide in mid burst if you so desire, which you can't do with the three shot select fire.)
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Exarmyguy View Post
I'm taking about infection killing them not the weenie bullets.
you wouldn't be constrained with FMJ
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:27 PM
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you wouldn't be constrained with FMJ
This too
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
You would think if nothing else the HIGHLY documented mass shootings with AR's would have put to rest the idea that you can't rapidly kill someone with one.
5-7 rounds (I counted, many times) in the torso to make Hajj be good.

Over and over and over.

I'll NEVER willingly rely upon 556 again.


No response matters. Simply is.
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sarge912 View Post
A binary trigger is more than adequate for suppression fire and I find it easier to control than the three shot burst. YMMV. I mostly practice controlled pairs. I know the Marines like to say "one shot, one kill" but two is better than one IMHO. (you can decide in mid burst if you so desire, which you can't do with the three shot select fire.)
Ok. Now are you going to be involved in squad or platoon level maneuvers? How many machine guns are providing support? Any air or artillery support?

The u.s. military adopted the m 16 as part of an all weapons combat team.

Are you of the opinion the m4gery is desirable because it can provide something “like” suppressive fire without the benefit of additional fire support?

The u.s. military has the best supply chain in the world. With all this suppressive “like” fire who is going to supply you?
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