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Old 06-29-2020, 04:03 PM
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Re-post from an earlier time:

https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...85&postcount=3
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Thanks for this!

Seems the phrase "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" is a forbidden omission within Christianity. I think many feel it makes them look weak or unknowledgeable.

To be honest, after following Jesus some 35 years, reading His word daily, untold bible studies, countless Church leadership roles....I still feel like I've only scratched the surface.
The study, especially of Christ's words, is like looking at a faceted gem. You see some facets, then when you look at it from another point of view, you see more, ones you didn't see before.

It's perennially amazing to me.
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Old 06-29-2020, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RichardinColorado View Post
Lutherans are amillenialists, meaning there is an on-going reign of Christ on earth with his people since the day of his ascension. He reigns through His Church and is present in His Word and Sacraments (Baptism & Lord's Supper). It is there that He speaks and acts every Sunday that is why I am constantly incredulous that people intentionally skip church. All that is said about the tribulation Church is currently true of His NT Church. There is no need to continue to wait for something when you already have it. Yes, Satan continues to war against Christ and His Church and yes, in the end the Old Nick will loose and we will win.

Scripture only teaches two comings (advents) of Christ:

1. Born as an infant assuming human flesh.

2. Second Coming - Judgment Day.

Visions are visions, not history. When St. Peter was given a vision of the unclean animals being lowered in a sheet, the rest of Joppa didn't run out into the street and yell, "Wow! Look at the unclean animals in the sheet!" It was for Peter's eyes only. Likewise, the visions in Revelation (Apocalpysis = the hidden things) are for St. John. We can receive great comfort from Revelation and that is its purpose. It's not an historical road map.
Truth. Christ currently and in this present day reigns as the King of kings but He'll also return in bodily form with ten thousands of His saints (Jude 1:14). I believe that when we read that He'll return in the clouds (Rev 1:7) that all of those tens of thousands will appear as clouds upon their return.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mazarine33 View Post
The study, especially of Christ's words, is like looking at a faceted gem. You see some facets, then when you look at it from another point of view, you see more, ones you didn't see before.

It's perennially amazing to me.
Very well said

I have also noticed that bible stories I've known since a small child and verses I know from memory suddenly take on new meaning when I hear someone quote them in a slightly different context.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:21 PM
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What's your gripe against the rapture?

If you are born again you are getting raptured. I have a really hard time understanding how people who feel they are believers want to pick at the rapture.

You might be better served going to the rapture forums and discussing it there. They deal with this sort of crap all the time.
I don't really have I gripe with it. I am just wanting to understand the position.

it just seems like scripture states that everything is going down on the Last Day. So it seems to me that if you are going to believe in a pre-trib rapture you must believe that there are days beyond the last day.
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:59 PM
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I don't really have I gripe with it. I am just wanting to understand the position.

it just seems like scripture states that everything is going down on the Last Day. So it seems to me that if you are going to believe in a pre-trib rapture you must believe that there are days beyond the last day.
I blame the Catholics
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:38 PM
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I blame the Catholics
*sigh*
We can't catch a break.
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:49 PM
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I don't really have I gripe with it. I am just wanting to understand the position.

it just seems like scripture states that everything is going down on the Last Day. So it seems to me that if you are going to believe in a pre-trib rapture you must believe that there are days beyond the last day.
Revelation covers a multi-year ordeal so I do not understand the surety about when the rapture occurs
It sounds brutal beyond comprehension
Would love to miss it

So I get the notion that a pre-tribulation rapture would be nice
Since I am soft mid-trib, I believe the Body of Christ will be moved off the earth to make way for the most gruesome events
And the Jews will take center stage as advocates for Salvation by way the acceptance of Jesus Christ as The Lord and Savior
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Old 06-29-2020, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
Thanks for this!

Seems the phrase "I don't know" or "I'm not sure" is a forbidden omission within Christianity. I think many feel it makes them look weak or unknowledgeable.

To be honest, after following Jesus some 35 years, reading His word daily, untold bible studies, countless Church leadership roles....I still feel like I've only scratched the surface.
I think that there are some things a Christian knows beyond the shadow of a doubt and other things that are difficult to "put ones finger on." If I'm not sure that Christ died for my sins; is my Savior; and is God incarnate then I'm in deep trouble for my doubt is greater than my faith. But I can't say beyond the shadow of a doubt that "the fruit" in the garden of Eden is anything more than an actual fruit. I personally believe that it DOES represent something other than a literal fruit but I can't say for a certainty. There are many other grey areas for me but I'm certain that Christ has shown me the truth concerning the issue of a "pre-Trib rapture." If I had any doubt I'd be the first to admit it. And ... if anyone shows me something that could create any doubt in my mind I would announce it.

But none of us could call ourselves Christians if we weren't certain that the Bible is God's Word and that we trust in the Lord.
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Old 06-29-2020, 11:52 PM
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The whole rapture thing can be an argumentative subject especially for those WHO WANTS TO BELIEVE the pre-trib rapture.

I have came to the conclusion there wont be a pre-trib rapture, but fear not......because there will be people who will be kept safe during the tribulation. They, will be those people who are taken away by the woman to hide in the "desert".....this has always been a comfort to me, although there wont be a pre-trib rapture, there is a possibility to be kept safe during those trying times.

As I understand it....the LAST DAY, will be the day of armageddon....now here it can be debated whether tthe people who died in Christ first will join the battle or not, the rest who are still alive will be caught up with them.

Why do I say Its the last day....because after the battle of armageddon, there will be people left alive....and that will be the start of the Thousand year rein of CHRIST AND THE SAINTS (those who have been raptured and those who died who was ressurected on armageddon), this is also the thousand years that satan will be bound in chains.

I have posted this simply to give those people who so stongly wants to believe in a pre-trib rapture HOPE, (i hope i am wrong and there is a pre-trib lol) because even if there is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, there will be people who will be kept safe during those times...pray that we are among them.

Have a wonderful day.

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Old 06-30-2020, 01:56 AM
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Revelation was written to the 7 churches. There is no rapture as premillennialism teaches. There is no miracle working singular antichrist coming to install microchips in your head and hands. There's no physical earthly reign. Jesus was very clear his kingdom is not of this world. It's a twisting of Revelations true meaning into a never ending cycle of fear monger and failed predictions given every few years that this is the one this time.... really.... this one for sure.... next time??

You want to know how i taught myself out of this Ludacris idea.

Can Jesus come back at any time? Yes?
- if so the Bible lied because there has to be wars, an anti christ figure, some famines, earthquakes, etc.... years of things so you actually would know he was coming.

He can't both be able to return at any moment and Also must wait a minimum of 7 years worth of events.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:51 AM
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I think that there are some things a Christian knows beyond the shadow of a doubt and other things that are difficult to "put ones finger on." If I'm not sure that Christ died for my sins; is my Savior; and is God incarnate then I'm in deep trouble for my doubt is greater than my faith. But I can't say beyond the shadow of a doubt that "the fruit" in the garden of Eden is anything more than an actual fruit. I personally believe that it DOES represent something other than a literal fruit but I can't say for a certainty. There are many other grey areas for me but I'm certain that Christ has shown me the truth concerning the issue of a "pre-Trib rapture." If I had any doubt I'd be the first to admit it. And ... if anyone shows me something that could create any doubt in my mind I would announce it.

But none of us could call ourselves Christians if we weren't certain that the Bible is God's Word and that we trust in the Lord.
Agreed AJ!

Many things are absolutely set in concrete with me. However the end times and exactly how Christ returns and how the events unfold, I'm not so sure.

I do know I go to heaven or the bible is a lie. Not because of my actions and filthy rags works but because of His grace for me.
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:51 AM
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Agreed AJ!

Many things are absolutely set in concrete with me. However the end times and exactly how Christ returns and how the events unfold, I'm not so sure.

I do know I go to heaven or the bible is a lie. Not because of my actions and filthy rags works but because of His grace for me.
Yes sir!! Ultimately, landing in His Kingdom is the prize worth aiming for.

And for those of you who DO believe in a pre-Trib rapture -- I still count you as my brothers and sisters and don't frown upon your individual beliefs concerning the subject. I may have a little against the preachers who push it onto their congregations but I don't hate them either. My main concern is that folks won't be spiritually prepared for the Great Tribulation if they believe they're going to get raptured before it shows up on their doorstep. Will they lose their faith in God if they aren't raptured?
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:10 AM
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I don't believe the rapture is "the day of the Lord".

The Day of the Lord is when we get all the ass kicking, lake of fire, etc. Armageddon. Triumphant return (of those raptured and those saved during tribulation).

The Rapture is simply the day He removes us from Earth. Could be any time. Then, by my account, we party during the Tribulation until we go back on the Day of the Lord. That is not something I would want to be unreached.
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Revelation covers a multi-year ordeal so I do not understand the surety about when the rapture occurs
It sounds brutal beyond comprehension
Would love to miss it

So I get the notion that a pre-tribulation rapture would be nice
Since I am soft mid-trib, I believe the Body of Christ will be moved off the earth to make way for the most gruesome events
And the Jews will take center stage as advocates for Salvation by way the acceptance of Jesus Christ as The Lord and Savior
Oddly enough ... I noticed the phrase "brutal beyond comprehension." That brought to mind a description of "the rapture" and just how brutal it WILL be for the tares (the folks who will be raptured but not in the sense that most folks pre-suppose).

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13):

Matthew 13:36-43, "Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."


Interestingly, one of the oldest definitions of the word "rapture" as found in the 1828 Noah Webster Dictionary:

Quote:
1. A seizing by violence.
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Rapture

That's not the only definition of the word but it's the first definition of the word. Seeing as how the tares (not the wheat) will be yanked from the earth and cast into a fiery furnace, I'd say that the word "rapture" is a fitting one.
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PurpleKitty View Post
What's your gripe against the rapture?

If you are born again you are getting raptured. I have a really hard time understanding how people who feel they are believers want to pick at the rapture.

You might be better served going to the rapture forums and discussing it there. They deal with this sort of crap all the time.
Right on PK!
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Old 06-30-2020, 08:38 AM
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The way I read it is exactly how I interpret it.

Those who believed in HIM and died believing in HIM will be raised as well as those who are alive and believe in him will also rise that day. And those who don't believe won't rise to be with HIM. Dosen't sound complicated to me.
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Old 06-30-2020, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Interestingly, one of the oldest definitions of the word "rapture" as found in the 1828 Noah Webster Dictionary:

Quote:
1. A seizing by violence.
http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Rapture

That's not the only definition of the word but it's the first definition of the word. Seeing as how the tares (not the wheat) will be yanked from the earth and cast into a fiery furnace, I'd say that the word "rapture" is a fitting one.
The actual word used meaning rapture in the KJV is caught up.
In 3 of the 4 verses where "caught up" is used, Paul was talking to "saved" persons. In the other verse John was talking about the man child (Jesus Christ) being taken up to heaven.

Notice the other definitions of the word rapture in Websters.

Quote:
RAP'TURE, noun [Latin raptus, rapio.]

1. A seizing by violence. [Little used.]

2. Transport; ecstasy; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure.

Music when thus applied, raises in the mind of the hearer great conceptions; it strengthens devotion and advances praise into rapture

3. Rapidity with violence; a hurrying along with velocity; as rolling with torrent rapture
violence sometimes means physical or moral force. From Websters

Quote:
VI'OLENCE, noun [Latin violentia.]

1. Physical force; strength of action or motion; as the violence of a storm; the violence of a blow or of a conflict.

2. Moral force; vehemence. The critic attacked the work with violence

3. Outrage; unjust force; crimes of all kinds.

The earth was filled with violence Genesis 6:11.

4. Eagerness; vehemence.

You ask with violence

5. Injury; infringement. Offer no violence to the laws, or to the rules of civility.

6. Injury; hurt.

Do violence to no man. Luke 3:14.

7. Ravishment; rape.

To do violence to or on, to attack; to murder.
.
The Greek word in the below verses translated caught up is harpazō and according to Thayer's Definition means
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
From Strongs - a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Quote:
2Co_12:2* I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co_12:4* How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
1Th_4:17* Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev_12:5* And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rapture comes from the Latin word "rapturo" and is not found in the King James Bible. It is a common term used by Christians meaning the catching away or caught up term used in the verses above.

The "caught up" is a good thing and has nothing to do with the "tares". Those caught up will forever be with the Lord.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:30 AM
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One thing I could never get on rapture ready how the anti-rapture gang was all "Oh, yeah, it's going to be hell... I'm looking forward to it, I'm going to kick ass for the Lord they can throw it all at me..."

God has a way of breaking down that kind of pride... and go type "pride" into Bible gateway and see how many references you get. Here's a good one: Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.

So when you talk about how you're going through the tribulation and how God is going to smite everyone but spare you that is pride talking. And God hates pride.

Me, personally, I would rather be gone partying with Jesus. You can hang out for the 100 pound hailstones and the scorpion-things but I'm skipping it.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:43 AM
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Just read the Bible, it tells you exactly when it is, it's when Jesus returns, and he returns 1 time, not 2.
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