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Old 07-05-2019, 06:51 PM
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Manuvering an object traveling at hypersonic speeds is a dificult thing to do. Takes substantial control surfaces (which cause drag) or some method to change the thrust vector (which implies sustaining thrust).

Perhpas we should buy or steal such a weapon and test it under controled conditions, because I am skeptical.
The US is working on their own version. I have no idea how they can cause something that fast to maneuver.

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Old 07-05-2019, 09:44 PM
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I retired over four yrs ago.

I was not privy to intel about the performance of hypersonic strike missiles. They had been proposed, but not tested or fielded in any quantity. I dont know how you prepare a defence for something, before you know how it performs.

But in general, the best defence against high speed weapon, is to close the range, so the weapon can not manuver and hit you.

Our current ships are not fast enough to do that.
A carrier never will be.
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Old 07-06-2019, 04:27 AM
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https://youtu.be/H5UFknIthJ8
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:32 PM
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The last part of that was very revealing. They more or less stated that 'It will be a while before any real defense can be put into place similar to how we STILL do not have any real defense against a large scale ICBM attack even over a half century since they were first deployed'. At about the 5:40 mark in the video...

So if we still cant do crap about a large scale attack from slower and 'easier' to hit targets in over 50 years what in the heck are we going to do about much faster and HARDER to hit incoming warheads and how long will it take us to get to where we can do anything against them?

While I admire Israel and their Iron Dome system that they use for protection I also believe that it gives many a false sense of security. Yes it is a very advanced and sophisticated system that prevents a lot of damage / harm to Israel but... It is only successful and proven so far against shooting down glorified bottle rockets and it costs them a crap ton of money to shoot one of those inexpensive bottle rockets down. Doubt if it would help them much if it was being tested against incoming munitions that were on the same technological scale as what most of the major powers possess in their arsenals.

I see the hypersonic missiles and possible defenses against them as working out the same exact way. Never going to happen due to the fact that it will always cost less to shoot at something than it does to defend against (shoot down) that which was shot at you.
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:00 PM
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Well,I have to say my knowledge about the Wasp class and the strategy behind them has climbed from zero to something positive, thanks to Hicks, Colt, JBryan and Justme. I may have to rethink my objection to the F-35b as the role for the USMC seems to have changed since Vietnam, when except for two battalions their mission was identical to the Army's.

Gracias mi amigos
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Old 07-20-2019, 08:24 AM
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https://news.yahoo.com/navys-6th-gen...074700789.html

Navy's 6th gen fighter?? Sounds like they aleady have proto-type(s)?



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Old 07-30-2019, 01:37 PM
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Raytheon Hypersonic missile



https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/201...2311564416491/
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:20 PM
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I never stated the vertical lift "feature" was useful. The vertical lift requirement by the Marine Corps dictated a bad fuselage design for all 3 variants. The Marine Corps did in fact use vertical takeoff on their AV8's. When I worked F-15's back in the 80's, we would deploy to Yuma AZ to fly against the marine AV8's. The AV8's would take off first and go land on...lily pads in the desert to hide. Our USAF F-15's were tasked to find them and kill them...exercise only.

The F-15 look down shoot down radar could not locate the immobile AV8's while they were parked. The AV8's would simply wait until our F-15's would fly past then they would pop up off the lily pads and race up to shoot AIM-9's from under the F-15's. There were no runways used...vertical takeoff to accomplish quick air to air kills. The AV8 had very limited flying time. The point of this is...vertical takeoffs and landings were in fact used...I witnessed this first hand.
So I finally had the opportunity to play with AV-8Bs in DCS world. I haven't had the opportunity to try this exact scenario yet... but man, those things are pigs. They're slow, their A2A armament is pathetic, and they don't maneuver for crap. The scenario you describe is about the only way I can see them being used effectively in an A2A role. I've tried a few BFM engagements with Mig-21s and Mig-23s and end up having to dive for the nearest canyon every time. Even then, most of the time I get a wing blown off before I get there.

For Marines coming from the AV-8Bs... the F-35s will be a major upgrade.
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Old 09-25-2019, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by thess02 View Post
I never stated the vertical lift "feature" was useful. The vertical lift requirement by the Marine Corps dictated a bad fuselage design for all 3 variants. The Marine Corps did in fact use vertical takeoff on their AV8's. When I worked F-15's back in the 80's, we would deploy to Yuma AZ to fly against the marine AV8's. The AV8's would take off first and go land on...lily pads in the desert to hide. Our USAF F-15's were tasked to find them and kill them...exercise only.

The F-15 look down shoot down radar could not locate the immobile AV8's while they were parked. The AV8's would simply wait until our F-15's would fly past then they would pop up off the lily pads and race up to shoot AIM-9's from under the F-15's. There were no runways used...vertical takeoff to accomplish quick air to air kills. The AV8 had very limited flying time. The point of this is...vertical takeoffs and landings were in fact used...I witnessed this first hand.
So I finally had the opportunity to play with AV-8Bs in DCS world. I haven't had the opportunity to try this exact scenario yet... but man, those things are pigs. They're slow, their A2A armament is pathetic, and they don't maneuver for crap. The scenario you describe is about the only way I can see them being used effectively in an A2A role. I've tried a few BFM engagements with Mig-21s and Mig-23s and end up having to dive for the nearest canyon every time. Even then, most of the time I get a wing blown off before I get there.

For Marines coming from the AV-8Bs... the F-35s will be a major upgrade.
Flew with some today. I promise they’re not pigs 😉
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Old 09-25-2019, 11:17 PM
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Flew with some today. I promise they’re not pigs 😉
I'm just a sim jockey, so I have no experience with them IRL. I'll give it another go tomorrow. I have the lily pad scenario set up and I'm going to run it stripped down to 40% fuel load, gun pod, and 4 AIM-9M vs some Mig-21s. Maybe I was just driving it too heavy before because the BFM wasn't going well at all.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:32 AM
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I'm just a sim jockey, so I have no experience with them IRL. I'll give it another go tomorrow. I have the lily pad scenario set up and I'm going to run it stripped down to 40% fuel load, gun pod, and 4 AIM-9M vs some Mig-21s. Maybe I was just driving it too heavy before because the BFM wasn't going well at all.
I don't think he really read it and thought you were referring to flying F35s, not Harriers. But yeah, the F35B is a great Harrier replacement and I'm sure the Marines love it. It'll be interesting to hear how your sim goes too.
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Old 09-26-2019, 03:05 AM
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Had to look up a few things to follow you techo wizards.

DCS world = https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.c...oducts/planes/

BFM = basic flight maneuvers

&#x1f609 = winking smiley emoticon.

AV 8 is of course the Harrier and Aim 9 the Sidewinder.

I assume a Lily pad is a mat to enable a Harrier to take off from unprepared surfaces without sucking sand and other debris into the engines.
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Old 09-26-2019, 03:16 PM
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I assume a Lily pad is a mat to enable a Harrier to take off from unprepared surfaces without sucking sand and other debris into the engines.
I'd assume so too. I know very little about the Harriers. I flew some early sims that featured it and quickly lost interest. Their special capabilities didn't, in my opinion, make up for their limited performance and payloads compared to the F-16, F-15, etc...

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I don't think he really read it and thought you were referring to flying F35s, not Harriers. But yeah, the F35B is a great Harrier replacement and I'm sure the Marines love it. It'll be interesting to hear how your sim goes too.
Well, here's how it went. It works... sorta.
First, if the enemy is on their toes, this happens:


Subsequent attempts went better, but I couldn't seem to pop them from a hover due to my shoddy VTOL skills. Still ran him down and managed to rip one of his wings off.



Ran this one down and put a sidewinder up his butt.




Verdict... it's an entertaining tactic, but far too situational. It would work great as part of a story, movie, or as an exercise in situational awareness for pilots. Maybe that was the point being driven home in the exercise thess02 was talking about.

As far as actually being employed in warfare... I dunno. Seems like there are an awful lot of variables and conditions that need to fall into place just right for it to be of use.
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Old 09-26-2019, 03:58 PM
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Neat, I guess this is a free online sim?

I used to buy some simulator games called Jetfighter, JF 2, JF 3 Full burn.

It was pretty realistic, supposedly incorporating a lot of feedback from pilots.

I flew the F-22 probably 100 hours total. It also had the F-18 and a couple other on there, but they were painful after flying the F-22. It was a long time ago, but those programs were pretty sophisticated for their time.
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Old 09-26-2019, 04:23 PM
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Neat, I guess this is a free online sim?

I used to buy some simulator games called Jetfighter, JF 2, JF 3 Full burn.

It was pretty realistic, supposedly incorporating a lot of feedback from pilots.

I flew the F-22 probably 100 hours total. It also had the F-18 and a couple other on there, but they were painful after flying the F-22. It was a long time ago, but those programs were pretty sophisticated for their time.
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/

Free? Not exactly. The P-51 and the SU-25 are free... but the rest of the aircraft, scenery, etc... all cost money. Lots, and lots, of money... unless you grab them on sale like I do from time to time.

This is the module I'm currently waiting for



The F-14 module is easily one of the best modules available

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Old 09-26-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CONELRAD View Post
I'm just a sim jockey, so I have no experience with them IRL. I'll give it another go tomorrow. I have the lily pad scenario set up and I'm going to run it stripped down to 40% fuel load, gun pod, and 4 AIM-9M vs some Mig-21s. Maybe I was just driving it too heavy before because the BFM wasn't going well at all.
I don't think he really read it and thought you were referring to flying F35s, not Harriers. But yeah, the F35B is a great Harrier replacement and I'm sure the Marines love it. It'll be interesting to hear how your sim goes too.
You’re correct, I read it incorrectly and thought he was referring to the Bs!
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:29 PM
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You’re correct, I read it incorrectly and thought he was referring to the Bs!
I was talking about a "B"... the AV-8B, not the F-35B.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:32 PM
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I'd assume so too. I know very little about the Harriers. I flew some early sims that featured it and quickly lost interest. Their special capabilities didn't, in my opinion, make up for their limited performance and payloads compared to the F-16, F-15, etc...



Well, here's how it went. It works... sorta.
First, if the enemy is on their toes, this happens:

Nope!

Subsequent attempts went better, but I couldn't seem to pop them from a hover due to my shoddy VTOL skills. Still ran him down and managed to rip one of his wings off.

Guns kill


Ran this one down and put a sidewinder up his butt.

Check your six, Ivan.



Verdict... it's an entertaining tactic, but far too situational. It would work great as part of a story, movie, or as an exercise in situational awareness for pilots. Maybe that was the point being driven home in the exercise thess02 was talking about.

As far as actually being employed in warfare... I dunno. Seems like there are an awful lot of variables and conditions that need to fall into place just right for it to be of use.
Not sure why you wouldn't just use a short ranged SAM like a Chaparral (firing sidewinders) and accomplish the same thing. Speaking of which... did the US ever replace them with anything? Is there just no short ranged IR SAM left in service (zero range stinger doesn't count)?
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:56 PM
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Not sure why you wouldn't just use a short ranged SAM like a Chaparral (firing sidewinders) and accomplish the same thing. Speaking of which... did the US ever replace them with anything? Is there just no short ranged IR SAM left in service (zero range stinger doesn't count)?


I don’t think there is anything like the Chaparral anymore, I could be wrong, but I think everything ground-based IR is Stinger-derived.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:07 AM
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I haven't read this whole thread and I'm only halfway through my first cup of coffee so if this has been addressed, I apologize.



The F-35 criticisms on budget are fair. F-35 criticisms with emphasis on foreign distribution are fair. However, I feel that F-35 criticism as a plane itself are misguided.

Judging it as a fighter jet is a 1980's mentality. It is stuck in the epoch of Top Gun and stories from Vietnam aces. This is the world the F16 and F15 came to know their development and fame in.

However, it didn't take long into the 90's to turn our champion dogfighter and interceptor into ground strike aircraft. The F16 grew to have a wider array of CAS weapons than it ever did Air to Air, and the F15E Strike Eagle is, in my opinion, the most successful variant of the aircraft.

Hyper-focused roles are a thing of the past. Large fleets of aircraft are no longer tenable by budget, resources, or even tactical necessity. Advanced multi-role jets are the new meta. And that's what the F-35 aims to accomplish.

Can it provide CAS as well as the A10? No, but it will do it 80% as good. Can it dogfight like the F16? No, but it can do it 80% as good. It can be stretched across to accomplish more goals with less resources. I'm going to stop this argument here because it falls victim to my own criticism that judging it as an airframe is an old mentality.

The beauty of the F35 is in it's sensor suite and it's stealth capability. Trial runs have already been completed to allow an F35 to datalink to a Drone and use it's cameras, sensors, and munitions. They're running trials right now to allow Gen 4 airframes like the F16 to launch munitions that are guided by the F35. Or even crazier, the F16 to launch a round that the F35 is painting from a datalink from a drone. Whoa.

The F35 is dispersing the need for large AWACS sort of forces. In the way that WWII divisional army mentality won't work in Afghanistan's special forces heavy roles, the idea of multiple bomber and fighter wings supported by AWACS and refueling ships won't work today. The name of the game overall is detection and early warning. The main mission of the air force right now is SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense). Namely, defeating SAM sites and their radars. This is not a mission for a dogfighting aircraft, or a fleet of jammers, or really anything we already have in our inventory.

However, if you can have one plane up that can operate stealthily at the edges of that SAM sighting range calling in precise strikes against those site from planes hovering well outside that sight range, then that's a huge win.

What used to be a large network of aircraft can now be completed by 3, maybe 4 jets. Think of the F35 as a mini AWACS that can defend itself and I think you'll be in a more proper perspective to understand the role and capabilities of the plane.


Oh, and visual range dogfights are won by the pilot, not the plane.
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