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Old 07-31-2017, 07:44 PM
sixtus sixtus is offline
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Ok so just learnt the lowest capacity recharchargables can last up to 3000-5000 cycles... and at 10 years should be working fine.

http://eneloop101.com/


The higher the capacity, the more the cycle life is reduced. Standard eneloop as above can last 2100, the highest capacity eneloops, cycle life is only 500.

Might be wise for you 18650 based guys to verify where your batteries sit on this scale.

Also was told alkalines are not the best in storage, prone to leakage before the 10 year mark is met.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:17 PM
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Default New Technology AAA, AA Batteries

https://www.amazon.com/KENTLI-CH4-57...TQPK64YBAS0PJB
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:28 PM
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I will shortly own a plug-in car. The batteries are 60 kwh, made of ~4v cells wired up to something like 400 volts. Being lithium they should last many years in a TEOTWAWKI scenario, question being, what equipment/rewiring would I need to use such a battery (along with some solar panels or generator) to power house lights, power tools, fans, pumps, etc?

If such a thing is possible. It would be a waste to have all the storage there in the driveway without the ability to use it.
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sixtus View Post
Ok so just learnt the lowest capacity recharchargables can last up to 3000-5000 cycles... and at 10 years should be working fine.

The higher the capacity, the more the cycle life is reduced. Standard eneloop as above can last 2100, the highest capacity eneloops, cycle life is only 500.

Might be wise for you 18650 based guys to verify where your batteries sit on this scale.

Also was told alkalines are not the best in storage, prone to leakage before the 10 year mark is met.
I won't use number of cycle life as anything close as benchmark, cycle life is affected by so many factors (charging voltage, usage, discharge rate, etc), and more so for Li-ion cell. To put it into perspective how much abusive cycles it could take, a phone of mine that were made in 2010 which had it battery change in 2013 and I use it as driving navigator, dash cam, WiFi AP, and to handle phone call and doing so while being charged with a power bank at ambient temperature of 40C (I smoke while I'm driving so no AC) and direct blazing sunlight, and I'm currently using that same phone to connect to the internet to post this . That making it 4 years under extreme abusive use. The same principal also apply for 18650 cycle life, as long they are Li-ion they have the same chemistry make up albeit different in construction, the most important thing is the control circuit that regulate everything (which is what Li-ion cell is all about)
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:47 PM
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Rechargeable are rated to a certain number of recharges, the life varies.

If industry isn't back up by the time your rechargeable stops working you have bigger issues.

If civilization shuts down for more than a few months survival will be next to impossible.

Your batteries should last longer than you.

Batteries are normally rated for cycles - charges and discharges. The science behind it depends on use. If you have batteries stored charged though, and you keep them topped up, they will outlive you in an emergency.
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"Whatever the issues it doesn't negate discussing battery life as part of prep"

"Permanent SHTF or whatever you want to class it, no more batteries being made"

oh it does. If industry is gone, so are you. End of story. Its like asking, if your heart fails do you know of good source of water to stay hydrated?

It is an inane discussion.

You might as well be asking how do we rebuild industry or do a heart transplant.

For a short term scenario this discussion might be sane but for a permanent situation, it is just a stupid discussion imo.

The scale of destruction required to destroy the battery industry is on par with massive destruction and cataclysm. It just isn't survivable.

This would be a sane discussion ex. if you are sent a mars colony and you need to service your batteries, how would you go about in maintaining your batteries and keeping them running permanently.

There are kazillions of different types of batteries and each type will have a different life cycle dependent upon conditions of use, environment of use, and construction. The question is so vague volumes of books could be written and all would be massively redundant for the scenario applied to the question.


Without batteries being made we are dead as that indicates catastrophic failure of industry. If industry fails the scale of chemical and nuclear destruction that will ensue will wipe out civilization for thousands of years.

If you are an ultra prepper living in a high technology nuclear bunker you may live but you may as well be on mars as that is what you are going to need to survive, a self containing habitat that can survive an alien enviornment.
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"I live and work in areas of the world not reliant on modern industry"

You completely lack an understanding of the modern industrial system and the fact that failure of industry including nuclear supports for reactors spread around the world would result in a total destruction of the ability for human survival globally. This is not even mentioning the mass catastrophic damage to failure of industrial waste treatment and disposal that would completely destroy the global ecology rendering the planet an environmental wasteland.
I totally disagree. Unless planet Earth is literally destroyed by some externally sourced event, human civilization will continue, even if limited to 5% to 10% of the current population. There is nothing that humans can do to the planet that will not leave habitable areas. And humans are the most adaptable species ever to inhabit the earth. Humans will survive. And not just survive. They will recover from whatever might happen, and then thrive again, eventually reaching the stars.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:51 PM
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Batteries make it easy to have small, portable devices. If there is an event that stops commercial battery production, older style batteries are not that difficult to make with available materials. And if portability is not a critical factor, there are several alternatives to power electrical and electronic devices. As simple as a potato, a lemon, or other types dissimilar metals and an acidic medium. Not to mention some much more powerful possibilities.

Even capacitors can be made with common materials, that can be used to power things for short periods.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry D Young View Post
Batteries make it easy to have small, portable devices. If there is an event that stops commercial battery production, older style batteries are not that difficult to make with available materials. And if portability is not a critical factor, there are several alternatives to power electrical and electronic devices. As simple as a potato, a lemon, or other types dissimilar metals and an acidic medium. Not to mention some much more powerful possibilities.

Even capacitors can be made with common materials, that can be used to power things for short periods.

Just my opinion.
makes sense, this is a level of SHTF electricity I wish I understood.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:14 AM
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I have several deep cycle marine batteries stored dry (no acid in the cells) and the acid stored with them. From what I have been able to determine there is no shelf life for battery acid and the batteries stored dry should last forever and be good when activated with acid. The big problem is finding someone who will sell you these type of batteries dry.

That said in the type of scenario you are describing, 5-7 years in what are you really going to need power for anyway other than perhaps lighting?


.
Power tools, ice, kitchen appliances, freezer.... many labor saving appliances.

I haven't got the dry batteries yet (it's on the short list)
But those 5-8 years (7-8....) + however many years the current batch have.... 10+ years is a LONG time for things to get back on track, or "spin down" your lifestyle if it's THAT BAD! (Doubtful)
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Old 06-19-2018, 09:40 PM
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Love the enelope batteries. Another great prep is a portable solar battery charger. You can get a great charger on Amazon for $25. Can't remember the brand I have but got a couple different ones. All solar and they work great. You should also get a battery tester. These are around $5-$6 and can test any type of battery including 9volt. A lot of alkaline batteries aren't really dead. Often just one is and the other is fine. Solar battery charger, tester, and several packs of enelope batteries will last a long long time.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:02 PM
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A comment about buying extra batteries and battery storage.

The shelf life of primary and secondary batteries is tied to the chemical reaction rate inside the cell. That reaction proceeds faster with temperature. For every 10C increase above the freezing point of water (0C) that rate doubles.

So store your batteries in the frig next to the beer. That way they will last another 10 yrs after the power fails.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:32 PM
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If you are on batteries probably the system you are using will not be working well or at all.
I look at batteries as a way to get me through the most dangerous part of a SHTF situation.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamAshley View Post
"Whatever the issues it doesn't negate discussing battery life as part of prep"

"Permanent SHTF or whatever you want to class it, no more batteries being made"

oh it does. If industry is gone, so are you. End of story. Its like asking, if your heart fails do you know of good source of water to stay hydrated?...
Why are you even on a survivalist web site? Just because you like to troll people?

BTW, almost everything you've said here is wrong. You have a right to your subjective opinion, and that's fine, but don't state it as fact.

To the OP

Do everything you can to make sure your gear runs on rechargeable batteries. I like the Eneloops or the Amazon batteries for AA and AAA, and I use 18650 batteries for most of my lights. I know there are rechargeable C2032 batteries too but I haven't gotten into those yet. I'd like to get into that so I can recharge my optic batteries.

Stock up on plenty of those batteries and stow them away, along with some chargers.

But you can't charge them without power so build a small solar power system just to run your chargers. You could build one for $300 or so. I have a couple threads here on solar power including a small system to run a fridge, you can search for it if you want.

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Old 06-25-2018, 12:15 AM
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I have to wonder the living life of the rechargeable battery, since we are likely talking in context of several years or more grid down scenario..

And the reality of aa/aaa/c cell/d cell their collective use time exceeds 12 hours or more on recharge with very low use value not to mention any other finky battery size you may have access too..

I think from a longtime grid down scenario perspective you are looking to within a several years or more grid down scenario you are looking at 12-96 vdc as a power solution which likely look at solar and/or wind/water turbines and diesel generator or multi fuel generator for setup..

For lighting I think you will be investing in kerosene lamps because I think past year 1 or 2 the rechargeable batts will likely start to fail..

even if you had access to agm/marine grade batteries my experience on these types of batteries you might get 12-18 month's from these batteries under constant load and recharge they do not have the capacity to last several years.. even if ran in series ..

Even with the current flavor of lithium batteries people swear by in hindsight has anyone looked at how long these batteries last under constant load and recharge???
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:11 AM
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I've been a rechargeable battery user for a lot of years.

Most batteries from AAA to D and 9v are NI-MH and hold about 45% the energy of a high quality regular battery of the same size, They can be recharged over 1500 times. I've never had a bad Enloop brand (Amazon Basics is a 2nd generation Enloop) but I have had a few Tenergy brand batteries go bad.

18650 and rechargeable 123A batteries use Lithium Ion which is the same thing as most electric cars use. Lithium Ion batteries hold about 60% of the energy as the same sized conventional battery holds and can only be recharged about 500 times. Since Lithium Ion batteries are bit more likely to catch fire quality ones have a chip built into them to monitor charging. (EMP fans should take note of this) I like the Orbtronic brand 18650s and the Enegitec brand for 123As.

2032 rechargeable batteries use a different chemistry and only hold about 15% of the energy of a regular 2032 but they are available. I think they can be recharged about 300 times.

As far as dry storage of a "car battery" I know you can do this with a Nichol Iron battery and I've heard of people storing dry Lead Acid batteries but.... I've read several articles about this and it's generally agreed that a battery begins to age the day it's lead plates are poured. Yes, cycling, especially deep cycling, will speed up the aging process but I think the lead plates still slowly age even sitting dry. While it may work I'd be weary about storing a Lead Acid battery dry for 10 years and expecting it to work at full capacity. Maybe someone here has stored a LA battery dry for 10 years and then filled and used it.... If so let us know if it then cycled more than a year or two with full capacity.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:31 AM
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Well I think it's a given that all things die sooner or later. When my all my batteries and cells go dead I think I could rig up something along the lines of the Baghdad battery to get by with some LED lighting. I could do a micro hydro in the spring and fall and I get excellent sun all summer long if the photovoaltic are still working, sadly nothing in the winter. There are solar powered ice makers designs to help keep food in the summer.

Yes Nickel Iron batteries can have a really long life upwards of 70 years and you pay for that.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:52 AM
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yea nickel iron might last 70 year though the question how long will it drain its power, how long the recharge takes and and how long before failure happens and how long the battery will take a charge before failure..

My experience with NiCad and NiHm batteries over the years they last a couple of hours though tend to take 10-12 hours on recharge making it pointless as a long term power solution for lights and radios..
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:59 PM
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...For lighting I think you will be investing in kerosene lamps because I think past year 1 or 2 the rechargeable batts will likely start to fail.....
You'd have to store a lot of kerosene to make it your primary lighting source for a year. Have you priced kerosene lately? PLUS it stinks and can give you a headache.

I've used even the cheap rechargeables for years. They don't self destruct, they just have less life per charge than when when they are new.

But it's back to my point of stocking up on plenty of Eneloops and Amazon batteries and stowing them away. It would be relatively easy and cheap to do.

Of course, you still need a way to charge them.

For lighting, a small solar power system with 12V lights would be best. I have one myself.
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:08 AM
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ofcoarse kerosene stinks though you aren't going to burn it 24/7..

read my last post..

long term use not short term..

how long do you think those batteries will last..

My own experience with nihm and nicads are this for 4 hours use it typically takes 12-24 hours to recharge this is is from mains power, under solar I have not a clue if you can recharge aa/aaa/c cell/dcell batteries never mind those unusual size batteries..

long term storage if the kerosene you are look metal storage vessel at 200-300 gallons or bigger

buying by the bottle cost to much..

yup and once you start looking 12/24/48 vdc to mains 120/240 you are going to loose..

for long term term power offgrid I think it be better investing in a multifuel genset..

Because there will be days with no sun and wind unless you live in tornado alley..

Though finding the best way to harness and f3-f5 in terms of power I do not know..
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:31 PM
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This assumes you've got enough power to run the charger at full power and a decent quality charger that charges the batteries at the batteries max charge rate. Even the good chargers may be a little underpowered (transformer is too small) to charge 4 D cells at once.

AA size NI-MH batteries take about 2 1/2 hrs to fully charge. D size takes about 8 hours. 18650s take about 9 hours. 2032s take about 1 hr. 9v take 7 hrs.

Chargers that take all day to charge 4 AA batteries are usually the really cheap ones and if solar powered have a tiny solar cell. It takes about a 15 watt solar panel to fully power most 4 battery chargers. With a smaller panel they will charge but slower so if your charger is taking 12 hrs to charge a battery you need a better charger and/or power supply.

Since I love to tinker with solar in addition to the home solar system I keep several 15 watt panels around that put out 2.5 amps at 5v with USB plugs (5v solar panels) that plug directly into the battery charger, phone, or IPAD, anything that charges off a usb charger.

Having the ability to keep large numbers of batteries charged is important to us because we plan to have a small radio net along with night vision and perimeter alarms; all of which run on rechargeable batteries.
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