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Old 04-12-2016, 04:39 PM
Kentuckysurvivalist Kentuckysurvivalist is offline
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A while back I stumbled across a photo of a "Car Over Trench Shelter" A field expedient shelter requireing you to dig a trench and pull your vehicle overtop of the trench. Then fill the inside and around the vehicle with the loose excavated dirt.

Is this type of field expedient fallout shelter worth thinking about? Especially for someone who may be on the road alot. Assuming they had all the required supplies to make the shelter in the vehicle. Such as Plastic sheeting, Sandbags, Shovel, etc

For me I always have two weeks of MREs and Water in my SUV along with various other supplies. And from what I can gather thats about the minimum amount of time to stay sheltered before emerging from the safety of ones shelter to resupply.

The Scenario I am looking at is that a Nuclear warhead(s) has/have detonated around my current location and I have survived the initial blast.
At this time I feel like the only issue with this type of shelter in this scenario exactly is that very thing. TIME. Based off of the photo I had seen it said to build the shelter to the depth required to effectively protect myself from radioactive fallout would take up to 48hours with TWO people.
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:56 PM
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The emergency trench with a car over the top is for the most extreme of emergencies, especially if you did not have any other materials except a car or truck. It would work and might be needed if not enough time to make a better shelter. And if you could not drive away for some reason. Maybe there is an EMP effect and your car would not function any longer or whatever. I personally would get away from the area or more likely not be in the nuclear area in the first place. As I have been able to not be in any nuclear target, or nuclear power plant areas for about 30 years now.

IF you knew that a nuke was going to immediately or has already happened then try to find the closest large building, hopefully with a deep basement. A cave, mine or whatever would work fairly well, better than nothing, to help protect from fallout. The best book I have read is the Nuclear War Survival Skills book > www.oism.org/nwss and there is a free pdf of that book in the downloads / survival files section of this forum.
But for many others who don't like the idea of a heavy car over the top here is a very good emergency shelter with a door over the top. Diagram at the bottom of this link >

http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p931.htm

I personally used the small pole shelter plans > http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p933.htm when I built the main room of my bunker / fallout / storm shelter and it has worked out well and held up since 1996 when I first built it. Even withstanding up to 12 feet of heavy snowpack on top. But all of that can be seen with many pics in the Everything about a Bunker thread in this NBC section.

Here is a google link about car shelters for more info > https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

One more thing is that If I had a large pickup truck or even larger vehicle then I might possibly place it over a ditch or the like and make a fallout shelter, especially if I had plastic sheeting, shovels etc.
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:23 PM
Kentuckysurvivalist Kentuckysurvivalist is offline
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Great info thanks for the reply! Heres my counter tho. The reason I wouldnt immedietly continue to find a home or buisness with a basement is because

A) the majority of homes and buisness where I live do not have basements. Which would take up alot of time in itself and probably the single most important reason is

B) If I manage to find a basement that would provide a decent amount of shielding 9x out of 10 It will be occupied by other residents by then. Requiring me to have to split my own recources of food and water with a group.

I liked the idea about driving my SUV over a ditch off the side of the road. After seeing a mushroom cloud or a blinding light id be forced to pull over anyways and the ditch could provide me immediate security from a possible blast or heat wave that could be anywhere from 20 to 45seconds later.

Not to mention depending on the depth of the ditch as much as 1/4 to 1/3 of the work could already be done. The only issue would be if it had recently rained and the ground wasnt stable enough to support the weight of my vehicle. (Which I would use the thumb ground stability test to test the ground first just before attempting to make this kind of shelter)
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kentuckysurvivalist View Post
Great info thanks for the reply! Heres my counter tho. The reason I wouldnt immedietly continue to find a home or buisness with a basement is because

A) the majority of homes and buisness where I live do not have basements. Which would take up alot of time in itself and probably the single most important reason is

B) If I manage to find a basement that would provide a decent amount of shielding 9x out of 10 It will be occupied by other residents by then. Requiring me to have to split my own recources of food and water with a group.

I liked the idea about driving my SUV over a ditch off the side of the road. After seeing a mushroom cloud or a blinding light id be forced to pull over anyways and the ditch could provide me immediate security from a possible blast or heat wave that could be anywhere from 20 to 45 seconds later.

Not to mention depending on the depth of the ditch as much as 1/4 to 1/3 of the work could already be done. The only issue would be if it had recently rained and the ground wasnt stable enough to support the weight of my vehicle. (Which I would use the thumb ground stability test to test the ground first just before attempting to make this kind of shelter)
Good fast response. And I was just throwing out some ideas off the top of my head.
The more I think about it and if I was on the road, which would most likely be in Colorado or Wyoming, then I might try to find a culvert or overpass. The huge amount of concrete etc. in an overpass would be great although would have to try to close it in more. If the protective side of an overpass would be facing a blast all the better.

In the mountains I see quite a few culverts, on state highways, such as one mile or so from my land there is one that is almost large enough to walk thru. It was built in a gulch - Hidden treasure Gulch - although I would most likely not use that one since my land and bunker would be close and there is usually water - a small creek running thru the culvert. And I cannot imagine any scenario where a nuke would be exploding very close. The nearest nuclear targets are in and near Cheyenne, Wyoming about 150 miles to the east.

Also hope people would not try to look at a nuclear explosion or even a mushroom cloud for the possibility of eye damage.

Anyway, what I usually do is try to think of what I might do when traveling and where the safest improvised places are as I look out into the landscape. That is a "secret" that well informed, well prepared survivalists try to do - be alert, adapt and improvise. Use what you have available, be willing to do what it takes and you will likely live to see another day....
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:51 AM
boomerweps boomerweps is offline
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Www.nuclearsecrecy.com
Check it out. They have a nuclear weapon results generator that you plug in the location and size of weapon, air or ground burst, and it will use historic weather data to determine the effects of the blast and the radiation plume and fallout patterns. VERY educational.
So you can set in likely targets around you and see how you would be affected.
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Old 04-13-2016, 11:14 AM
Gedrevn Gedrevn is offline
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These rules and ideas behind protecting yourself from nuclear radiation and fallout were designed in the 50's for completely different types of weapons and attacks.

Most modern nuclear attacks are expected to be airbursts due to the ability to significantly increase the blast area damage from this type of detonation. In an airburst scenario, there's very little fallout since no debris is disintegrated and the fatal radiation radius is smaller than the fatal blast radius.

So the actual usefulness of this as a fallout shelter is pretty minimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentuckysurvivalist View Post
Based off of the photo I had seen it said to build the shelter to the depth required to effectively protect myself from radioactive fallout would take up to 48hours with TWO people.
Even in the event that you decide you're going to protect against a ground blast, there are a lot of problems with this method.
  • You're probably not going to have 2 days warning, so you'd get hit with fallout before you finished.
  • If you pre-built this or used a ditch, you still probably will not have enough time to drive the car over the trench, get your earth wall, sheeting, and filtration up in time.
  • This design was primarily intended as a radiation shield, which is no longer relevant at all, cars are not airtight and this likely would not protect you against all fallout.
Most importantly, fallout tends to be banded based on specific wind patterns. In most cases, driving a few hours in the right direction will get you outside of a fallout pattern. You're much better just getting in your car and driving away than trying to sit in a trench underneath.
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Old 04-17-2016, 09:19 PM
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Not endorsing the ditch plan.
After the initial blast in Hiroshima, the Black Rain fell.
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Old 04-17-2016, 09:53 PM
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Not a bad idea. Protection from fallout requires you to put either mass or distance between it and you.

Being in a trench would give one to four feet (depending on how deep the trench is) of solid mass/dirt between you and the radiating particles on the ground. This is very good. The problem is fallout directly above. If you are in the open, a car for covering would be better than, say, a tarp, because the particles on the car would be several feet farther away that if you just used a tarp. This is pretty good and may be far enough to save your life.

So the bomb comes and you see the cloud and the wind is blowing it your way. You have 30 minutes to find or dig the trench, park the car over it and maybe spread a tarp over the car. Here's my thought: after two hours, fallout will be complete. Jump out of the trench and carefully slide the tarp with its fallout off the car onto the ground. Then get back in the trench. After two days, get into the car and drive home, where you will live to be a ripe old age.
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Old 04-18-2016, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gedrevn View Post
These rules and ideas behind protecting yourself from nuclear radiation and fallout were designed in the 50's for completely different types of weapons and attacks.

Most modern nuclear attacks are expected to be airbursts due to the ability to significantly increase the blast area damage from this type of detonation. In an airburst scenario, there's very little fallout since no debris is disintegrated and the fatal radiation radius is smaller than the fatal blast radius.

So the actual usefulness of this as a fallout shelter is pretty minimal.
Whether a weapon will be an airburst or ground/surface burst depends on the target. Most current weapons can be set off in any of these ways.
Airburst would be used against soft targets with greater geographical expanse, like cities and industrial areas, as well as transportation hubs. As you correctly state, airbursts are more effective in terms of blast area coverage.
Hardened targets, like for example missile silos and military command-nodes, would get one or more groundburst. I seem to have read somewhere that a Minuteman III silo is hardened to 2,000 PSI; as an example, an 800 Kt warhead from an SS-27 would have to hit within 350 meters to subject the silo to that amount of over-pressure (something it is capable of precision-wise, CEP is less than 200 meters).

A military airbase could potentially, according to western doctrine, receive 3 warheads. There is no reason to think other nuke-capable nations think otherwise, as the physics involved is the same, and the end-state of the target is probably similar. For example, during the cold war, Engels airbase in Russia was targeted with 2 airbursts (1 in each end of the base, near aircraft parking areas as well as supporting facilities) and 1 ground burst smack in the middle of the main runway to disable the base for a looong time.

So, I wouldn't disregard ground bursts in any way.
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Old 04-20-2016, 11:24 AM
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"If you are in the open, a car for covering would be better than, say, a tarp, because the particles on the car would be several feet farther away that if you just used a tarp. This is pretty good and may be far enough to save your life."

Not only be a few feet farther away but also sandbags full of dirt, an extra 18inches roughly will be added to the interior of the vehicle over top of me. And if and when its time to leave. The sandbags can be emptied and taken with me for later use. no shoveling dirt out of the vehicle.

"After two days, get into the car and drive home,"

My only issue/ main concern will be if the Emp effect from a nuclear blast disables my vehicle. At this point I could still use a come-a-long to get it to the side of the road over a ditch or trench by myself. Ive also read that just before a nuclear war, some warheads with be detonated way above the U.S. to maximize there EMP spread. So if my vehicle and other peoples vehicles suddenly stop, im checking my cellphone and if it to is toast im digging in. After a day or so and nothing has happened I can safely assume it was some kind of solar flare. So I would travel on foot back to my house from that point. Not saying that would be much safer or anything haha that brings a whole new survival situation being two days late in a nation wide blackout.
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Old 04-25-2016, 05:14 AM
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imo very interesting & educational thread/thanks to everyone posting
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Old 05-03-2016, 08:33 PM
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In the theoretical situation, if I saw a mushroom cloud in the distance I would have a minute to look for a low area to drive the vehicle into (not under a bridge or overpass). Then get into my NBC gear, roll up windows and hope nothing goes through them. If intact, if its still on its tires, the vechicle can be used to get somewhere safer providing some 4 wheel driving around debris, homes, in ditches, crossing streams, etc.

Trying to wait out the immediate fallout under a vehicle, its possible IF you have 10 minutes or more to get ready and dig, then drive the vehicle over it, then crawl back in and cover up any airholes and pray.

If all else fails and you can't get out of traffic, yell here we gooooooooooooooooo.
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
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if I saw a mushroom cloud in the distance I would have a minute to look for a low area to drive the vehicle into (not under a bridge or overpass).
.
Fallout on the roof of your car, only one foot away from your head, will kill you for sure. Parking under a bridge would be better than in the open.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:12 PM
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Ever hear the old saying "the cure is worse than the disease"? Digging a trench deep enough to crawl into, then straddling your car on the side, then filling in with dirt on the sides...

Just waiting for that un-supported trench to collapse under the weight of the car, car on your head, sides of trench crushing you, loose fill dirt falling into place over your head. All kinds of bad ways for that to end.

Nuclear Fallout is not a "kill you now quick" problem. If you live in a fallout saturated area, stay in it, drink water and eat plants from the contaminated fields, kill animals that did the same... long lived activity can build up in your system and give you leukemia or other cancers down the road.

Being in the blast radius of a nuclear weapon, being immediately down wind from a blast and staying there, staying within a few miles of a nuclear reactor meltdown, downwind... those are problems.

If you have a car, put the windows up, get in, and DRIVE. If say, you are in Europe and the fallout cloud from Chernobyl comes over, you aren't going to die there. It's diluted, spread out, short lived activity decayed, and most heavy stuff already has fallen out.

Time, Distance, Shielding is your friend. Don't die in a ditch.
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