For Catholics and Orthodox - a discussion - Page 10 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Advertise Here
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Without the Sacraments there is no Salvation cat1978 Religious Discussion 1107 07-01-2019 11:21 AM
Icons! Orthodox Tradition compared to Catholic Tradition cat1978 Religious Discussion 24 05-15-2018 07:54 PM
Question for Othodox (Only) B&SIC Old fart Religious Discussion 2 01-18-2018 09:46 AM
Traditional Christianity DJPrepper Religious Discussion 648 01-15-2018 05:42 PM

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-25-2018, 10:03 AM
Pinhead's Avatar
Pinhead Pinhead is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,738
Thanks: 16,820
Thanked 2,862 Times in 1,043 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by “The Greek and Latin Traditions Regarding the Procession of the Holy Spirit” (September 13, 1995)
“The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative and irrevocable value, as the expression of one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No confession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of faith taught and professed by the undivided Church.”

USCCB:
Quote:
Originally Posted by USCCB
"In all discussions about the origin of the Holy Spirit within the Mystery of God, and about the relationships of Father, Son and Holy Spirit with each other, the first habit of mind to be cultivated is doubtless a reverent modesty. Concerning the divine Mystery itself, we can say very little, and our speculations always risk claiming a degree of clarity and certainty that is more than their due.

No unity or trinity or number or oneness or fruitfulness, or any other thing that either is a creature or can be known to any creature, is able to express the Mystery, beyond all mind and reason, of that transcendent Godhead which in a super-essential way surpasses all things” (On the Divine Names 13.3). That we do, as Christians, profess our God, who is radically and indivisibly one, to be the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit – three “persons” who can never be confused with or reduced to one another, and who are all fully and literally God, singly and in the harmonious whole of their relationships with each other - is simply a summation of what we have learned from God’s self-revelation in human history, a revelation that has reached its climax in our being able, in the power of the Holy Spirit, to confess Jesus as the Eternal Father’s Word and Son. Surely our Christian language about God must always be regulated by the Holy Scriptures, and by the dogmatic tradition of the Church, which interprets the content of Scripture in a normative way. Yet there always remains the difficult hermeneutical problem of applying particular Scriptural terms and texts to the inner life of God, and of knowing when a pas*sage refers simply to God’s action within the “economy” of saving history, or when it should be understood as referring absolutely to God’s being in itself. The division between our Churches on the Filioque question would probably be less acute if both sides, through the centuries, had remained more conscious of the limitations of our knowledge of God.
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2018, 10:40 AM
cat1978 cat1978 is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,027
Thanks: 2,011
Thanked 3,466 Times in 1,752 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinhead View Post
USCCB: "The division between our Churches on the Filioque question would probably be less acute if both sides, through the centuries, had remained more conscious of the limitations of our knowledge of God."
Great! So as this admission by the Catholic side that there is no need to bother us with these issues beyond our comprehension then why the need to include the Fillioque and to keep it there for 1000 years against the express issues of the other bishops of the Church? Also, why not remove it from the Creed if this is the major problem to unite with the Orthodox and solve it in a civilized manner in a Council with all Apostolic bishops?

Maybe we are talking about a need to split using ANY justification by the Catholic Side? Then why the fake calls to union? Is this a power struggle to remove the authority of the other Apostolic Churches? Is that where all things lead? I think it is. So whoever is power hungry and bent on ruling his brothers will discover that this is not according to the freedom given by the Holy Spirit to all the Apostles. Not only Peter received the Holy Spirit but the other 11 also. Not only Peter received the power to create bishops but the other 11 as well. Peter did not decided alone, but he was imbued with the Holy Spirit and the other Apostles imbued as well with the Holy Spirit decided together with Peter.

In the end the Seat of Peter will come back to the signature given in the Third Council, there is no other way forward in a lawful and divine society.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cat1978 For This Useful Post:
Old 05-25-2018, 01:35 PM
Atticus's Avatar
Atticus Atticus is offline
Totus tuus
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 836
Thanks: 510
Thanked 1,113 Times in 516 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cat1978 View Post
Great! So as this admission by the Catholic side that there is no need to bother us with these issues beyond our comprehension then why the need to include the Fillioque and to keep it there for 1000 years against the express issues of the other bishops of the Church? Also, why not remove it from the Creed if this is the major problem to unite with the Orthodox and solve it in a civilized manner in a Council with all Apostolic bishops?
I've often heard it said that the major issues dividing the Orthodox and Catholic Churches had more to do with questions of authority than of theology. That appears to be true from the whole of this discussion. As I've stated earlier, there appears to be Biblical justification for the filioque (see my post from John above), but there is also justification for the Orthodox view.

You also have to remember that the Churches were split for many years during tumultuous periods of history, and through the Crusades - when reconciliation was an impossibility. Only after Vatican II, has there been a serious movement within the Catholic Church towards reconciliation. There are in fact still Catholics who adhere to the old Pre-Vatican II ways of Catholic liturgy and belief - and they speak about the Orthodox in similar terms to the way the Orthodox speak of Catholics in this thread. It is the Post-Conciliar Church which has allowed this dialog to progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cat1978 View Post
Maybe we are talking about a need to split using ANY justification by the Catholic Side? Then why the fake calls to union? Is this a power struggle to remove the authority of the other Apostolic Churches? Is that where all things lead? I think it is. So whoever is power hungry and bent on ruling his brothers will discover that this is not according to the freedom given by the Holy Spirit to all the Apostles. Not only Peter received the Holy Spirit but the other 11 also. Not only Peter received the power to create bishops but the other 11 as well. Peter did not decided alone, but he was imbued with the Holy Spirit and the other Apostles imbued as well with the Holy Spirit decided together with Peter.
I don't know what you mean by "fake calls to union." I don't know anyone who doesn't want to unify all Christians under one banner (except the traditionalists I mentioned above). There is no power struggle. In the Roman Catholic Church of today, the councils still have the greatest weight. Most councils throughout history have been called for a specific purpose though, and Vatican II was not. A new council would have an agenda of dealing with the differences in the two Churches - with the aim of achieving consensus. As long as you are comfortable with each bishop getting one vote, then I don't think you have anything to worry about in a unified Church.

Just because the Roman Church has always been hierarchical, does not mean that this would be imposed on Eastern Orthodox Churches who have proved their faithfulness to the Holy Spirit. I would expect both "halves" of the Church to continue to be governed as they are today. The Pope's role in the Roman Church is usually described as the "first among equals." He has the final say in matters of faith and morals when making a formal pronouncement "ex cathedra" from the papal throne. This was last done in the 1950's. Pope Benedict described the councils as having more prominence and that a Pope's action should proceed from decisions of the council.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cat1978 View Post
In the end the Seat of Peter will come back to the signature given in the Third Council, there is no other way forward in a lawful and divine society.
We'll see. I've said many times already that I think this may be something the Catholic Church will bend on. But we'll see.
Quick reply to this message
Old 05-25-2018, 01:43 PM
cat1978 cat1978 is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,027
Thanks: 2,011
Thanked 3,466 Times in 1,752 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
Pope Benedict described the councils as having more prominence and that a Pope's action should proceed from decisions of the council.
Pope Benedict, I'm telling you is a shame he is not the one doing this union. He had a certain charisma in the Orthodox Church because of his "orthodox" views within the Catholic Church. I decry the new Pope, Francis, that is trying his best to make the Church relevant to the young people but he is losing with his liberalism most of the serious believers young or old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
We'll see. I've said many times already that I think this may be something the Catholic Church will bend on. But we'll see.
Maybe Trump needs to become Pope to have something Done on this union.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cat1978 For This Useful Post:
Old 09-05-2019, 10:50 PM
Atticus's Avatar
Atticus Atticus is offline
Totus tuus
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 836
Thanks: 510
Thanked 1,113 Times in 516 Posts
Default

A Grand gesture by Pope Francis. Will this help?

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/07/...dox-patriarch/
Quick reply to this message
Old 09-06-2019, 12:56 PM
cat_1978 cat_1978 is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,407
Thanks: 3,167
Thanked 3,405 Times in 1,808 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
A Grand gesture by Pope Francis. Will this help?

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/07/...dox-patriarch/
I will be really happy when the Pope will just go ahead and say: "Lets start over. Lets go back to Nicaea and revisit the signature, reestablish the authority of the Council over both Churches. Lets, start and build from there." If he does that he will be called "a son of God", a peace maker. I am sure you will do it Atticus if you will be in his position. There is no losing for Catholics if the Pope does that. Just win. Huge win.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cat_1978 For This Useful Post:
Old 09-06-2019, 06:30 PM
Atticus's Avatar
Atticus Atticus is offline
Totus tuus
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 836
Thanks: 510
Thanked 1,113 Times in 516 Posts
Default

From your lips to God's ears. Peace my brothers.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Atticus For This Useful Post:
Old 02-12-2020, 10:28 PM
Atticus's Avatar
Atticus Atticus is offline
Totus tuus
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 836
Thanks: 510
Thanked 1,113 Times in 516 Posts
Default

Just this fall, there was this wonderful end to a generally peaceful thread between Catholics and Orthodox. Since then, it appears that warfare has once again broken out between the Orthodox and Catholic members on this board. Perhaps we can explore the reasons here - but in hopefully a sober and humble discussion, rather than name calling and accusations.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Atticus For This Useful Post:
Old 02-13-2020, 05:32 AM
Watchingtheweasels's Avatar
Watchingtheweasels Watchingtheweasels is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,887
Thanks: 8,315
Thanked 16,794 Times in 5,315 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
Today my I, my wife, my son and my father in law all went to a Tridentine Latin Mass. I had never been to one before. This was the way the Mass was done prior to 1970, and had been the Mass of the Roman Catholic Church since the time of Saint Gregory the Great.

Stepping into the church today was like entering an otherworldly dimension. The church was completely covered with artwork. From the tiled floor to the stained glass windows, the ceilings painted with the Saints and the Gospel writers, and angels everywhere.

All of the music was in Latin. The Mass was said in Latin, and everything except for the Homily (sermon) was also in Latin. The reverence and dignity of the Mass were profound, and I couldn't help wondering what ever possessed the Church to give this up. It truly felt as if we had stepped through a portal into Heaven today. I hope to return very soon. It was absolutely glorious, and a foretaste of the worship at Gods Heavenly throne.
Doctrine set aside for the moment, now you understand the practice part of why Roman Catholicism was never an option when I went looking for the church of the apostles. The liturgy of Sts. Chrysostom and Basil is. Novus Ordo isn’t. To my previously Protestant eyes and ears, Novus Ordo seems like a bad evangelical church service from the 1970s. Personally, I would like you guys to go back to the Pre-Tridentine mass you used prior to 1570 as it was the historic practice of the Roman church prior to Trent.

If you look at its form, as of 400 AD, it is very similar to what is still used in the Orthodox Church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Tr...00_and_1000_AD

This article shows the changes you made from 400 to 1000 AD. But even adopting the Pre-Tridentine Latin mass of 1000 AD would give the Roman church a solid basis for liturgical union with the east.

This is the fundamental problem for all modern Christians...when you look at the doctrines and practice of much of what is called Christendom, understand that it has become defective, and decide to peel back the layers of the onion where does one stop? The Great Awakening? The Reformation? Trent? Only by returning to the first millennium can Christians find unity, as John Paul said.

...but that will not involve meeting in the middle, as those who changed the most in the second thousand years will have to give up the most.
Quick reply to this message
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Watchingtheweasels For This Useful Post:
Old 02-13-2020, 05:59 AM
Trogshak's Avatar
Trogshak Trogshak is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,658
Thanks: 354
Thanked 1,085 Times in 689 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
... Pope Benedict described the councils as having more prominence and that a Pope's action should proceed from decisions of the council ...
Where does Benedict state this?
Quick reply to this message
Old 02-13-2020, 09:22 AM
Atticus's Avatar
Atticus Atticus is offline
Totus tuus
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 836
Thanks: 510
Thanked 1,113 Times in 516 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
Where does Benedict state this?
I'll have to search for it. It may have been in one of the books he did with Peter Seewald.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Atticus For This Useful Post:
Old 05-23-2020, 06:39 AM
Watchingtheweasels's Avatar
Watchingtheweasels Watchingtheweasels is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,887
Thanks: 8,315
Thanked 16,794 Times in 5,315 Posts
Default

I'm going to do a little thread archeology here and bump this old one only because I just finished listening to an excellent podcast, "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy".

Rome Part 1a

Rome Part 1b

Rome Part 2a

Rome Part 2b

It's a very thorough treatment of the subject of this thread.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Watchingtheweasels For This Useful Post:
Old 06-04-2020, 01:55 AM
Keyzer Soze's Avatar
Keyzer Soze Keyzer Soze is offline
Автомат Калашникова
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,705
Thanks: 1,389
Thanked 1,157 Times in 678 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus View Post
Today my I, my wife, my son and my father in law all went to a Tridentine Latin Mass. I had never been to one before. This was the way the Mass was done prior to 1970, and had been the Mass of the Roman Catholic Church since the time of Saint Gregory the Great.

Stepping into the church today was like entering an otherworldly dimension. The church was completely covered with artwork. From the tiled floor to the stained glass windows, the ceilings painted with the Saints and the Gospel writers, and angels everywhere.

All of the music was in Latin. The Mass was said in Latin, and everything except for the Homily (sermon) was also in Latin. The reverence and dignity of the Mass were profound, and I couldn't help wondering what ever possessed the Church to give this up. It truly felt as if we had stepped through a portal into Heaven today. I hope to return very soon. It was absolutely glorious, and a foretaste of the worship at Gods Heavenly throne.
If you find that the Tridentine Mass (aka the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite) speaks to you thru its solemnity and reverence, you are not entirely alone. It was the Catholic Mass of my youth which I attended as a Catholic elementary school student in the 1960's and learned to served as an altar boy. The Epistle and Gospel readings were always done in English. This Mass was offered worldwide from the 1570's thru the 1960's. After Vatican II its use was sanctioned by Papacy and replaced by the vernacular Novus Ordo Mass which is commonly offered to this day. In 2008 Benedict XVI lifted the sanction and encouraged every RC parish to offer both the NO and Tridentine liturgies.

I remember the time and place that I first experienced the Latin Mass in 40 years. After all those decades of enduring the obnoxious sound of guitars and drums in church, I finally was able to recognize the Mass again. From the "Prayers at the Foot of the altar" (Psalm 42) to the "Last Gospel" (John 1:1-14), the Latin responses which I had learned as an altar boy, returned to my lips. This became my Mass. I sought it out across three dioceses and never passed on the opportunity to attend and support the Latin Mass, wherever it appeared.

I soon realized that not all Catholics felt the same way I did. Many modern Catholics actively opposed the very existence of the Latin Mass and the invasion of their churches by "traditional" Catholics. To them, there was no place for old-school solemnity and reverence in the house of God. But I was hooked. Their opposition actually motivated me to join a TLM group which established the Latin Mass in parishes where it had never existed before. We organized a network of priests, trained altar servers, and invested in the furnishings required to offer a proper Trindentine Mass at any parish that would allow it.

I encourage you to attend the TLM as often as you can. You will develop an appreciation for the reverence and seriousness of earlier Catholic liturgies. This is what happened to me. I knew that the Church was nearing its 2000 year anniversary. When I realized that the Tridentine Mass dated to the 1500's, I became curious as to the liturgies which the Church used before the Reformation. I soon became aware of Eastern Catholic (Melkite, Ruthenian, Romanian) parishes and monasteries in my area. I attended their services, visited their bookstores and was thereby introduced to the writings and icons of Eastern Catholic saints who were also canonized in Orthodoxy.

The rest is history.

Kyrie Eleison.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2020, 07:13 AM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is online now
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 8,750
Thanked 10,148 Times in 3,149 Posts
Default

When I was a kid mass was done in Latin
It was not important to me then or now

I will never get how an argument over the Holy Spirit emanating from God alone or from God and his Son Jesus Christ was worth argument or a schism ?????

You are not going to get saved, or not either way
The Bible seems to say that the Holy Spirit comes from God
But it does not matter either way in order to be Born Again

Why should this non-essential argument keep the tiny and insignificant orthodox Church from re-establishing communion with the Catholic Church ?????

Salvation has zero to do with this idiotic argument that has zero bearing on Salvation
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2020, 07:26 AM
Batko10's Avatar
Batko10 Batko10 is offline
Survivor
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,098
Thanks: 14,128
Thanked 17,336 Times in 4,000 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Why should this non-essential argument keep the tiny and insignificant orthodox Church from re-establishing communion with the Catholic Church ?????
Jack the Jerk is out trolling again!

Hey, Jerk-Off! We know that you hate the Orthodox Church. You are the one that is an insignificant shmuck.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2020, 07:31 AM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is online now
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 8,750
Thanked 10,148 Times in 3,149 Posts
Default

And least try for coherent posts
Going off the rails does not serve you well
You should have had Cat do your dirty work as he seems to have a better command of the English language than you, even though it is a second language for him.

And no, I would have zero problem being a member of an orthodox church.
They would be fortunate to have me.

Big difference is that I worship zero denominations
As I always say I both hate and love all Bible based denominations equally
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2020, 08:25 AM
cat_1978 cat_1978 is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,407
Thanks: 3,167
Thanked 3,405 Times in 1,808 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
And least try for coherent posts
Going off the rails does not serve you well
You should have had Cat do your dirty work as he seems to have a better command of the English language than you, even though it is a second language for him.

And no, I would have zero problem being a member of an orthodox church.
They would be fortunate to have me.
You will never be received in the Orthodox Church with this proud and foolish attitude. Keep dreaming.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cat_1978 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-04-2020, 08:40 AM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is online now
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 8,750
Thanked 10,148 Times in 3,149 Posts
Default

It is a fact beyond dispute that I could go through the one to two year indoctrination program and join any orthdox chuch I wanted to.
If I had the original +/- 1,000 year life-span I would do it and laugh about it
I believe I would be better off for learning about the orthodox denomination but I would have the sense of an old cow and eat the hay and leave the sticks
Through it all, I would still believe in the Orginal Church run by practicing Jewish Apostles and ultimately rely on the Bible as the True Word and guide to Salvation
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-04-2020, 09:25 AM
cat_1978 cat_1978 is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,407
Thanks: 3,167
Thanked 3,405 Times in 1,808 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
It is a fact beyond dispute that I could go through the one to two year indoctrination program and join any orthdox chuch I wanted to.
If I had the original +/- 1,000 year life-span I would do it and laugh about it
I believe I would be better off for learning about the orthodox denomination but I would have the sense of an old cow and eat the hay and leave the sticks
Through it all, I would still believe in the Orginal Church run by practicing Jewish Apostles and ultimately rely on the Bible as the True Word and guide to Salvation
Yeah but THAT year or two you will have to fake humble attitude and in your case it is THIS that is impossible. Because even the prospect of faking humility makes you shudder. Actually having humility is terra incognita for you.

Also there are ways to see if one fakes humility and the people that screen the novices are not the worst character judges.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cat_1978 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-04-2020, 11:38 AM
Jack Swilling's Avatar
Jack Swilling Jack Swilling is online now
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 4,291
Thanks: 8,750
Thanked 10,148 Times in 3,149 Posts
Default

The orthodox chuch I picked will probably let me have full communion in six months
They will be humbled by my presence

Like I said they would be fortunate to have me as the USA orthodox church is shrinking, a lot

Going from .03 % of the population to me stemming the diminishment as one man adding to the tiny, diminishing number of orthodox members

You should pray to be so blessed
Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net