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Old 10-16-2019, 06:36 PM
ajole ajole is offline
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Knowing that, why wouldnt you choose something that is easier to shoot well with, making the likelihood of good, fast, repetitive hits more of a sure thing?.......
.......Unless of course, youre basing your coices on something else.
This^^^^exactly.

Took the head football coach to the range to make sure his .338 WinMag is still sighted right, and brought an AR, he was a virgin on that. So he pops off 4 rounds over 10 minutes with his lightweight synthetic stainless Ruger as we check zero and walk back and forth to look at my 1/2" AR500 gong he is shooting (no damage to the gong, but the rack took a beating!)

Then he pops a few AR shots down range. Totally amazed at how light the recoil is, how the red dot actually works, and how much sharper the report is compared to the big boom from the cannon. Asks how effective can it be, compared to his big gun. I said, well, it's not for hunting elk, it's for other jobs. So I showed him how you can walk sideways and put rounds on target, then said imagine if you were 100 yards away, and had your gun, and were trying to put the crosshair on and shoot a guy that was walking sideways, popping rounds off at you every 1/2 second...could you stay down on your scope as bullets whiz by and possibly hit you if he's a decent shot, or are you running for cover?

He sort of got it then.

Then we got out the other AR with the scope, and started doing fast doubles on the gong with a hand rest across the truck bed rails. Then we started popping crap the folks had left behind...pop cans, parts of clay pigeons, etc...and he mentions the BDC reticle is just like on his rifle, so can you shoot this thing 200 or 300 yards out? Of course you can, we did it in the army with just irons. Then we talk about the ballistic arc of the 5.56, and how everything from 0 to 275 meters is basically point and shoot, (much like his rifle) but with the AR I can do 30 aimed rounds in under a minute, or less if I get after it.

So now he realizes just what a weapon the little AR can be.

Next time I'll have to let him shoot the AK and a Garand.
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Old 10-16-2019, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
That said, regardless of the size/depth of the examples, tests, whatever you want to call it, there is that continuing trend, that they all perform very similarly, or at least close enough, that there is really no difference in the performance of the bullet itself.

Knowing that, why wouldnt you choose something that is easier to shoot well with, making the likelihood of good, fast, repetitive hits more of a sure thing?

Smaller "full size" guns, with higher capacity and softer recoil, and normally, cheaper ammo, allowing for more practice. Whats not to like, and why would you choose otherwise?

Unless of course, youre basing your coices on something else.
This is exactly why the 2014 FBI study concluded that 9mm is the recommended LE caliber.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25...ning-division/

There's not a whole lot of difference in terminal performance between the various calibers. 9mm has fairly low recoil, which enables more accurate & rapid follow-on shot and can generally have a larger capacity.

If you own 40 S&W or .45 ACP, I wouldn't go ditching them and starting over, but to someone starting from scratch, I always recommend 9mm.
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
WITHIN certain boundaries...

How many .22 hits equal that one hit with a .50
my guess is you can never fire enough .22s to match the .50 in regards to effect.
Exactly. Big difference in what happens to say a melon or gallon jug of water when hitting it with a 9 sillimeter vs a .45 vs a 460 Rowland.

With the 9 the target is there for a while and you can shoot it over and over where with the 460 it is gone after the first shot.
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Old 10-16-2019, 08:52 PM
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DON'T KNOW how many folks remember this but right after Gutenberg invented the printing press, G&A had an article that came out about the .455 Webley and the British theory on bullet damage.

The Brits used the term TRANSMISSION DWELL, and the theory that the LONGER a projectile stays within the human target(and make no doubt they were talking about shooting people, not jello) the more time it has to transmit bullet energy into the recipient and making the round more effective. Thus the reason for that 265 gr lead bullet to be traveling at approx 650fps.

IT was felt that if the bullet exited the body, there was energy wasted.
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Old 10-16-2019, 09:18 PM
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Lots of theories, reasoning, myth, fantasy, whatever over the decades and centuries even.

Yet the question, as well as the answer, have ALWAYS been the same all along, and in each and every case.
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Old 10-16-2019, 09:28 PM
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Of my hand guns the range favorites are 22 ruger and S&W 5906 9mm. 22 cheap and fun and accurate. Smith is boat anchor heavy but that is a plus in comfort. Carry guns are Diamondback DB9 9mm or Bauer 25 mouse gun. DB9 conceals real nice but the 25 can ALWAYS be carried regardless of wardrobe. That is important for my work.

For me, mature and staying in safe places, odds are having to brandish a gun are long. Statistics also say brandishing can stop the situation most times. MOST people do not want to be shot at even with a mouse. If shots have to be fired yeah I would prefer to have a 9mm or better but folks that do not believe a small gun can be lethal are delusional. Bigger is better but not necessarily overwhelmingly so. Boston study stated only 1 in 6 shootings are lethal regardless of caliber.
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
DON'T KNOW how many folks remember this but right after Gutenberg invented the printing press, G&A had an article that came out about the .455 Webley and the British theory on bullet damage.

The Brits used the term TRANSMISSION DWELL, and the theory that the LONGER a projectile stays within the human target(and make no doubt they were talking about shooting people, not jello) the more time it has to transmit bullet energy into the recipient and making the round more effective. Thus the reason for that 265 gr lead bullet to be traveling at approx 650fps.

IT was felt that if the bullet exited the body, there was energy wasted.
I think you are correct. The more energy ( mass times velocity squared) without creating a through and through the more energy is devoted to tissue damage.
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Old 10-17-2019, 09:34 AM
Arch Stanton Arch Stanton is offline
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The ability to stop something relies on the shooter, not on the bullet.

Someone who constantly practices with .32 rounds will be much more effective than someone who has no clue and shoots .45
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Short of testing "everything" to minutia, youre never going to have a perfect answer, not that you ever would anyway, given the subject. Every instance is its own critter, and the results will never be exactly the same.

That said, regardless of the size/depth of the examples, tests, whatever you want to call it, there is that continuing trend, that they all perform very similarly, or at least close enough, that there is really no difference in the performance of the bullet itself.

Knowing that, why wouldnt you choose something that is easier to shoot well with, making the likelihood of good, fast, repetitive hits more of a sure thing?

Smaller "full size" guns, with higher capacity and softer recoil, and normally, cheaper ammo, allowing for more practice. Whats not to like, and why would you choose otherwise?

Unless of course, youre basing your coices on something else.
There's a point of diminishing returns in which fast, light, low recoil, easy to shoot, isnt effective enough as say, something bigger, more powerful and with greater recoil. I think that the mantra of "shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot fast and accurately" is where its at. For me thats 357SIG, and 40S&W or 9mm also being ok in my book. For obvious reasons such as cost of ammo, availabilty, I'm happpy enough with 9mm and 357 magnum for revolvers.
I just have a bit of a hard time believing that, all things being equal, a 32ACP will be more effective than a 44 magnum. logic, not to mention hunting, clearly says othewise.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:57 AM
Arch Stanton Arch Stanton is offline
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Short of testing "everything" to minutia, youre never going to have a perfect answer, not that you ever would anyway, given the subject. Every instance is its own critter, and the results will never be exactly the same.

That said, regardless of the size/depth of the examples, tests, whatever you want to call it, there is that continuing trend, that they all perform very similarly, or at least close enough, that there is really no difference in the performance of the bullet itself.

Knowing that, why wouldnt you choose something that is easier to shoot well with, making the likelihood of good, fast, repetitive hits more of a sure thing?

Smaller "full size" guns, with higher capacity and softer recoil, and normally, cheaper ammo, allowing for more practice. Whats not to like, and why would you choose otherwise?

Unless of course, youre basing your coices on something else.
There's a point of diminishing returns in which fast, light, low recoil, easy to shoot, isnt effective enough as say, something bigger, more powerful and with greater recoil. I think that the mantra of "shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot fast and accurately" is where its at. For me thats 357SIG, and 40S&W or 9mm also being ok in my book. For obvious reasons such as cost of ammo, availabilty, I'm happpy enough with 9mm and 357 magnum for revolvers.
I just have a bit of a hard time believing that, all things being equal, a 32ACP will be more effective than a 44 magnum. logic, not to mention hunting, clearly says othewise.
Are you talking hunting or self defense? A .44 is pointless either way if it’s a shooter who never practices which is what I was discussing. I would rather have someone with me with a .32 who knows how to use it than someone who has never shot and purchased a .44 off the shelf.
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Old 10-17-2019, 03:49 PM
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+1 to the heaviest caliber one can shoot fast and accurately. Beyond that there is only subjecture, and we all know where that leads....
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Old 10-17-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
They will just continue to ignore it and site anecdotal evidence from a coroner they once they once knew or old cop buddy.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
I PERSONALLY investigated over 1000 shootings... not something I read or heard about. IF I had kept an accurate count over the years it could have been as high as 2000. You get tired of keeping track after a while, you know they just sort of run together... "SHOOT thy neighbor" was one of the most followed commandments in the hood.

BUT


Calibers beginning with .4 overwhelmingly put people down, stopped fights, canceled aggression over everything else that could considered a regular handgun round. NOT saying they are INSTANT DEATH... what I am saying is I never had to fight or restrain anyone hit with a .4. They always seemed quite content to lay there and hope not to die, all thoughts of aggression sort of gone out of them.

One of the most interesting ones, 2 officers responding to B&E, BG is running for a 10' high fence, makes a gun like gesture, officer 1 pops a 125gr .357HP at him, hitting him in the ribs, through and through, BG turns and starts climbing fence. Officer 1 closes, tries to pull THE SHOT GUY off the fence, gets kicked in the head, knocked semiconscious, officer 2 gets in position to fire, sticks the muzzle of his Model 29 through the fence and fires. Hits BG in left upper arm with a .44Special load. According to officer, as I was taking the report, BG did a complete 360 spin, went down, stayed down never moved until ambulance hauled him away.

Even though a nonfatal or even life threatening hit, it was pretty much the results from impact with a .4. I was a skeptic at first when they brought out the ,40S&W which we all heard stood for "short and weak" Well, lemmetellya, it worked just the same. Something about that extra bullet diameter just makes a lot of difference. at least in my experience.

I had a guy shot 3 times with a .25 auto while wearing one of those silk wife beaters so popular back then. The shirt was sucked into the wound channels. When they went to take the shirt off of him, the bullets popped out. The silk had caught them and when the ER doc went to remove the shirt the 3 little pills hit the floor.

Bullets do weird things.
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Old 10-17-2019, 04:36 PM
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had a guy shot 3 times with a .25 auto while wearing one of those silk wife beaters so popular back then. The shirt was sucked into the wound channels. When they went to take the shirt off of him, the bullets popped out. The silk had caught them and when the ER doc went to remove the shirt the 3 little pills hit the floor.

Bullets do weird things.
Supposedly medieval soldiers used silk for the same purpose against archers.
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Old 10-17-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
They will just continue to ignore it and site anecdotal evidence from a coroner they once they once knew or old cop buddy.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
I PERSONALLY investigated over 1000 shootings... not something I read or heard about. IF I had kept an accurate count over the years it could have been as high as 2000. You get tired of keeping track after a while, you know they just sort of run together... "SHOOT thy neighbor" was one of the most followed commandments in the hood.

BUT


Calibers beginning with .4 overwhelmingly put people down, stopped fights, canceled aggression over everything else that could considered a regular handgun round. NOT saying they are INSTANT DEATH... what I am saying is I never had to fight or restrain anyone hit with a .4. They always seemed quite content to lay there and hope not to die, all thoughts of aggression sort of gone out of them.

One of the most interesting ones, 2 officers responding to B&E, BG is running for a 10' high fence, makes a gun like gesture, officer 1 pops a 125gr .357HP at him, hitting him in the ribs, through and through, BG turns and starts climbing fence. Officer 1 closes, tries to pull THE SHOT GUY off the fence, gets kicked in the head, knocked semiconscious, officer 2 gets in position to fire, sticks the muzzle of his Model 29 through the fence and fires. Hits BG in left upper arm with a .44Special load. According to officer, as I was taking the report, BG did a complete 360 spin, went down, stayed down never moved until ambulance hauled him away.

Even though a nonfatal or even life threatening hit, it was pretty much the results from impact with a .4. I was a skeptic at first when they brought out the ,40S&W which we all heard stood for "short and weak" Well, lemmetellya, it worked just the same. Something about that extra bullet diameter just makes a lot of difference. at least in my experience.

I had a guy shot 3 times with a .25 auto while wearing one of those silk wife beaters so popular back then. The shirt was sucked into the wound channels. When they went to take the shirt off of him, the bullets popped out. The silk had caught them and when the ER doc went to remove the shirt the 3 little pills hit the floor.

Bullets do weird things.
This is not what most of us are saying though. Of course a larger bullet in the same practiced hands as a smaller bullet will do more damage than the smaller bullet.

The point is the practice/training. Why does everyone keep ignoring that?

Would you rather have a well-trained, veteran officer using a .357 as your backup or some random guy from the neighborhood who just bought his first gun and it happens to be a .44?
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Old 10-17-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
I PERSONALLY investigated over 1000 shootings... not something I read or heard about. IF I had kept an accurate count over the years it could have been as high as 2000. You get tired of keeping track after a while, you know they just sort of run together... "SHOOT thy neighbor" was one of the most followed commandments in the hood.



BUT





Calibers beginning with .4 overwhelmingly put people down, stopped fights, canceled aggression over everything else that could considered a regular handgun round. NOT saying they are INSTANT DEATH... what I am saying is I never had to fight or restrain anyone hit with a .4. They always seemed quite content to lay there and hope not to die, all thoughts of aggression sort of gone out of them.



One of the most interesting ones, 2 officers responding to B&E, BG is running for a 10' high fence, makes a gun like gesture, officer 1 pops a 125gr .357HP at him, hitting him in the ribs, through and through, BG turns and starts climbing fence. Officer 1 closes, tries to pull THE SHOT GUY off the fence, gets kicked in the head, knocked semiconscious, officer 2 gets in position to fire, sticks the muzzle of his Model 29 through the fence and fires. Hits BG in left upper arm with a .44Special load. According to officer, as I was taking the report, BG did a complete 360 spin, went down, stayed down never moved until ambulance hauled him away.



Even though a nonfatal or even life threatening hit, it was pretty much the results from impact with a .4. I was a skeptic at first when they brought out the ,40S&W which we all heard stood for "short and weak" Well, lemmetellya, it worked just the same. Something about that extra bullet diameter just makes a lot of difference. at least in my experience.



I had a guy shot 3 times with a .25 auto while wearing one of those silk wife beaters so popular back then. The shirt was sucked into the wound channels. When they went to take the shirt off of him, the bullets popped out. The silk had caught them and when the ER doc went to remove the shirt the 3 little pills hit the floor.



Bullets do weird things.
Then please post the analysis of your study.

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Old 10-17-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Arch Stanton View Post
This is not what most of us are saying though. Of course a larger bullet in the same practiced hands as a smaller bullet will do more damage than the smaller bullet.

The point is the practice/training. Why does everyone keep ignoring that?

Would you rather have a well-trained, veteran officer using a .357 as your backup or some random guy from the neighborhood who just bought his first gun and it happens to be a .44?
I think a lot of people think caliber will (or hope it will) make up for their lack of skill. After all, theyve been hearing the same old worn-out BS/myths for a long time now, and they dont seem to be going anywhere.

While I wont go as far as say the smaller then 9mm calibers would be a smart choice fro a primary gun, there is no doubt, I rather have someone who can shoot a .32 along, than someone who bought into the 45acp myths, and never practiced.

I shoot everything from 44mag down to 22 and 25 acp, and I know what its like to try and shoot them more realistically. I can shoot my 45 autos and 44 revolvers well, but my 9mms and 357's are just SO much easier, and the results are generally better. I seriously doubt that a hit with either would fail to work in the manner desired, and there will be more of them quickly there to boot.

You always hear that this worked better than that, yet you never seem to ever hear what the circumstances were or where the hits were. Just that one took more than the other, or worked better.

I keep going back to the old 30 Carbine myth we've heard for decades now, and Ive heard it from people who were there too (Ive heard a LOT of CRAZY BS from all sorts of "vets" over the years too. You really need to take things you hear with a grain of salt ). Yet, when you look at what the 30 Carbine does when it hits what it was shot at, it amazingly seems to penetrate and perform fine.

I think a lot of the anecdotal stories you hear, are just that, stories, and dont take into account that people, especially those under stress, dont generally perform really well, and when they dont, its not going to be their fault that they werent getting things done, so it must be the gun, or the ammo, or both.

Reality is/was, they were shooting "AT" the target, that doesn't mean they actually hit it, or if they did, it wasnt a good hit.

This sort of stuff is never going to have a satisfactory answer, for any round. Its not possible. There is going to be a "sorta trend" that might be seen, but even then, its really never going to be anything definitive, as they will always be too many variables.

If you want your best chance, then get a gun of a reasonable caliber, that you shoot well with, any way you might have to shoot it, and practice your ass off with it, and I seriously doubt you will be bad off for it.

Youre going to be light years ahead of anyone who just buys what they are told is a magic talisman, and goes with that.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
I think you are correct. The more energy ( mass times velocity squared) without creating a through and through the more energy is devoted to tissue damage.
No.

A handgun projectile doesn't cause more damage if it doesn't exit. "Energy" is a meaningless term in that respect.

Handgun bullets don't radiate death and destruction as they pass through. They poke a hole. That's it.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:24 PM
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I PERSONALLY investigated over 1000 shootings... not something I read or heard about. IF I had kept an accurate count over the years it could have been as high as 2000.
My hats off to you. I worked in a big city department with a lot of shootings, and I don't know anybody that even came close to that kind of number of cases investigated personally.

Hopefully you're teaching or lecturing on the subject, with that kind of experience.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:37 PM
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I think a lot of the anecdotal stories you hear, are just that, stories, and dont take into account that people, especially those under stress, dont generally perform really well, and when they dont, its not going to be their fault that they werent getting things done, so it must be the gun, or the ammo, or both.

Reality is/was, they were shooting "AT" the target, that doesn't mean they actually hit it, or if they did, it wasnt a good hit.
There have been "famous gunwriters" who have played fast and loose with facts about shootings they have written about, sometimes slyly not ID'ing exactly the exact place and time.

As a young Sgt., I attempted to enlighten one of those "famous" writers at a seminar, when they misstated the facts trying to make their point, about something I was in the professional position to know about. He brushed it off and continued giving his opinions based on non existent "facts".

It was another in my hard lessons learned, that many in journalism, even gun magazines, don't care about facts.

.
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Old 10-18-2019, 01:48 PM
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It was another in my hard lessons learned, that many in journalism, even gun magazines, don't care about facts.

.
Funny how it seems even more relevant these days, and in all directions, isnt it.
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