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Old 08-20-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
Not all homicides are murder
Some homicides are justified
All Murder is a felony
Felony murder is just murder. The only other offense is Capital Murder.

I don't need 2 or 3 paragraphs to explain it.
NO... there are nuances and scales to murder that govern the severity of punishment... at least in Michigan

We have
1st degree murder
felony murder
solicitation of murder
2nd degree murder
voluntary manslaughter
involuntary manslaughter
negligent homicide
All the above are a felony but the punishment goes from life without parole to less than 2 years in prison.

THEN
depending upon the circumstances there are different guidelines for the punishment. You can commit 1st degree murder and be eligible for parole or never get parole, it all depends.
So they really are not the same.
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Old 08-20-2019, 06:24 PM
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huh?

Quote:
“He was a lovable child. I only had two kids, he was my youngest,’’ Annan said. “I’m the type of mother. ... I’m overprotective. I don’t let him go nowhere."


Annan said she received a call from her sister early in the morning Tuesday. “I just got a call that he was shot in Lake County. I didn’t know Ja’quan was there,”

except:

1. Steal a car
2. try and rob a residence
3. at 1am
4. in a place you didn't know he was at...

someone slap this stupid lady....
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:15 AM
The Old Coach The Old Coach is offline
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Never, never fire warning shots. If you shoot at all, shoot to kill.
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:43 PM
America's Patriot America's Patriot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
NO... there are nuances and scales to murder that govern the severity of punishment... at least in Michigan

We have
1st degree murder
felony murder
solicitation of murder
2nd degree murder
voluntary manslaughter
involuntary manslaughter
negligent homicide
All the above are a felony but the punishment goes from life without parole to less than 2 years in prison.

THEN
depending upon the circumstances there are different guidelines for the punishment. You can commit 1st degree murder and be eligible for parole or never get parole, it all depends.
So they really are not the same.

Dude... really? Justified killing is called homicide. Murder and Felony Murder are the same thing. There really isn't any reason to argue about it. And the punishment for the crime doesn't matter when it comes to the charge... that's what you pay the piper after the fact.

Yes, we all realize there are different degrees to Murder.


*edited to sound less like an ass... can be hard sometimes. LOL
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:45 PM
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You had me at Tyiesha
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Old 08-21-2019, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
Never, never fire warning shots. If you shoot at all, shoot to kill.
Shoot to stop the threat.

Consult an attorney before giving a statement, other than the prefix statement “I’ll be glad to help you with your investigation in any way possible, with my attorney present.”

Anything you say can, and will be used against you...anything.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
Dude... really? Justified killing is called homicide. Murder and Felony Murder are the same thing. There really isn't any reason to argue about it. And the punishment for the crime doesn't matter when it comes to the charge... that's what you pay the piper after the fact.

Yes, we all realize there are different degrees to Murder.


*edited to sound less like an ass... can be hard sometimes. LOL
SORRY, but 30+ years in LE can't let improper info go unchecked. Murder and felony murder are not the same thing. The only similarity is someone died.
Murder undefined is a"common law" crime carry over. Felony Murder is a creation of statute.
The list of actions to qualify are different for each one.
and
actually the punishment allowed is what defines the classification of the charge.

If I sound like a lawyer, well there is a reason for that too.
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuteandfuzzybunnies View Post
Somethings to think about when defending your self. . this poor guy shot a 14 year old kid. Justified self defense but he seams to have been firing a shot to “scare them off “.

https://trib.al/92w2gpR
"I don't let him go nowhere"

But he was on someone else's property in a stolen car with his boyfriends?

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
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Old 08-22-2019, 05:49 AM
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I don’t think we should complain that mom said her kid wasn’t to blame. He was 14 and with adult men. They where the criminals here mostly. The homeowner was 100% justified at least from the article. But the older boys who sadly whereby the ones to get shot should be considered the most culpable.
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
SORRY, but 30+ years in LE can't let improper info go unchecked. Murder and felony murder are not the same thing. The only similarity is someone died.
Murder undefined is a"common law" crime carry over. Felony Murder is a creation of statute.
The list of actions to qualify are different for each one.
and
actually the punishment allowed is what defines the classification of the charge.

If I sound like a lawyer, well there is a reason for that too.
Just curious, but if the prosecution is looking at a murder-felony, doesn't the defense press for justifiable homicide?

ROCK6
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:45 PM
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Just a thought but, do we really care what the DA uses to keep this trash off the street? I really think we should be able to sterilize the mother so she does not pump out any more criminals.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Just curious, but if the prosecution is looking at a murder-felony, doesn't the defense press for justifiable homicide?

ROCK6
JUSTIFIABLE homicide is usually statutorily defined but it basically has to do with threats to human life, yours or someone you are protecting. ie- you shoot someone threatening your wife, or even someone you don't know if they are vulnerable ie- old lady getting mugged by knife wielding robber.

In a felony murder charge you, as a defendant you cannot claim "self defense" if you are robbing a store and the shop keeper pulls a gun to shoot you and you shoot and kill him instead. The commission of the felony ROBBERY negates any chance of self defense as a defense claim.
Now, if you and the shop keeper were arguing say over the price of a product and he pulled a gun you could defend yourself and plea it was justifiable under those circumstances.... IF you could reasonably articulate your fear for you life. Saying "He ticked me off" would not do it.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
“He ordered the strangers to get off his property and leave, but these strangers continued to advance on him," Nerheim wrote. “The resident saw that one of the strangers had something in his hand, and believing he was in danger of death or, at the very least, great bodily harm, he fired his gun several times to try and scare them away.
More range time would have made the body count higher. Practice, people.
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Just curious, but if the prosecution is looking at a murder-felony, doesn't the defense press for justifiable homicide?

ROCK6
JUSTIFIABLE homicide is usually statutorily defined but it basically has to do with threats to human life, yours or someone you are protecting. ie- you shoot someone threatening your wife, or even someone you don't know if they are vulnerable ie- old lady getting mugged by knife wielding robber.

In a felony murder charge you, as a defendant you cannot claim "self defense" if you are robbing a store and the shop keeper pulls a gun to shoot you and you shoot and kill him instead. The commission of the felony ROBBERY negates any chance of self defense as a defense claim.
Now, if you and the shop keeper were arguing say over the price of a product and he pulled a gun you could defend yourself and plea it was justifiable under those circumstances.... IF you could reasonably articulate your fear for you life. Saying "He ticked me off" would not do it.[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.survivalistboards.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif[/IMG]
There might be self defense arguments for a burglar. For example if I have surrendered and am no longer committing the crime , the home owner hand cuffs me, produces a bat and says “ I’m going to teach you a lesson and starts to beat me. I can legally defend myself. .
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
JUSTIFIABLE homicide is usually statutorily defined but it basically has to do with threats to human life, yours or someone you are protecting. ie- you shoot someone threatening your wife, or even someone you don't know if they are vulnerable ie- old lady getting mugged by knife wielding robber.

In a felony murder charge you, as a defendant you cannot claim "self defense" if you are robbing a store and the shop keeper pulls a gun to shoot you and you shoot and kill him instead. The commission of the felony ROBBERY negates any chance of self defense as a defense claim.
Now, if you and the shop keeper were arguing say over the price of a product and he pulled a gun you could defend yourself and plea it was justifiable under those circumstances.... IF you could reasonably articulate your fear for you life. Saying "He ticked me off" would not do it.
Thanks. Only reason I asked was a case my wife was involved with as a juror. The defendant had his CCW permit but initiated a conflict with another individual who had threatened him in the past. The other guy took the bait, but only made verbal threats and then turned around to walk away, but then the defendant proceeded to pull his 1911, shoot him in the back and when the other guy fell face first, continue to unload his magazine into his back. Ironically, the autopsy showed 10 gunshot wounds from 7 shots fired...the ricochets off the pavement resulted in additional gun shot wounds when the guy was face down on the ground...

Bottom line, he was convicted of murder (can't recall exactly what degree), but was trying to use justifiable homicide via "stand your ground" as his defense...

ROCK6
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuteandfuzzybunnies View Post
There might be self defense arguments for a burglar. For example if I have surrendered and am no longer committing the crime , the home owner hand cuffs me, produces a bat and says “ I’m going to teach you a lesson and starts to beat me. I can legally defend myself. .
YEP..YOU BETCHA...

BUT...
I would not kill him if I could avoid it. You are on a very slippery slope and one foot on a banana peel. You have already committed a felony, the B&E. You are in a catch 22 situation. You can kill him and claim self defense, BUT a prosecutor would probably claim you were cuffed.. then you saw an opening and attacked the home owner and killed him to facilitate your getaway.
IF
you left him alive and YOU called the police it would show you were probably not the aggressor in the ATTACK part of the sequence. .. otherwise you would have killed him and made good your escape. You will still probably go for the B&E but you will not have to deal with the homicide.
If you killed him even if in self defense, again the prosecutor would claim you killed the guy, knew you would be caught and figured you came up with this lame SD story to try to beat the homicide.

Defend yourself but leave him alive and YOU call the police to report it all.
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Thanks. Only reason I asked was a case my wife was involved with as a juror. The defendant had his CCW permit but initiated a conflict with another individual who had threatened him in the past. The other guy took the bait, but only made verbal threats and then turned around to walk away, but then the defendant proceeded to pull his 1911, shoot him in the back and when the other guy fell face first, continue to unload his magazine into his back. Ironically, the autopsy showed 10 gunshot wounds from 7 shots fired...the ricochets off the pavement resulted in additional gun shot wounds when the guy was face down on the ground...

Bottom line, he was convicted of murder (can't recall exactly what degree), but was trying to use justifiable homicide via "stand your ground" as his defense...

ROCK6
YEEEAAAHHHH....
30 years of cop work and I never saw a successful "shot him in the back in self defense" work out too well.

There are times when a good forensic examination will however work out. Had a homeycide one night I was working. 2 bros get into an argument according to the survivor. And, like the old west it goes to a leatherslap, the dead guy is shot in the front and back. Dead guy holding unfired gun clutched in his cold dead hand. NO witnesses found.
and
the claim of self defense or charge of murder hangs on establishing which round was fired first.

Forensics exam of clothes and autopsy exam concluded the first shot was in the front. The guy walked.

Of course this is all based on the survivor telling the truth, for all we knew he had the guy at gunpoint already and the dead guy went for it in desperation .

BUt since we could not prove that either... he walked. It also didn't hurt that the DG was a known butthead who had caused no small amount of bloodshed and mayhem in the city.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:36 PM
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seems like, you don't want your kid to get shot, don't name him anything like Trevon, don't let him wear a hoodie
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Old 08-26-2019, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
Shoot to stop the threat.
In the police academy two of the local prosecuting attorneys taught the legal section of our training.

They also clarified that we do not "shoot to kill" and instead we "shoot to stop the threat" and it's not our fault that killing the aggressor happens to be the most effective way to stop an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:13 PM
America's Patriot America's Patriot is offline
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Quote:
we do not "shoot to kill" and instead we "shoot to stop the threat"

Coincidentally, this is why you NEVER speak to the police without an attorney present. Your words can and will be twisted in a way to show admission of guilt.
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