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Is your gun safe safe?

5K views 47 replies 20 participants last post by  munik 
#1 ·
I bought a Harbor Freight gun safe at a swap meet. I always check youtube to see if there is a vulnerability in any lock I buy, and there always is. I am designing my own electronic lock, after seeing these videos. The mechanism of mine is shown at the start of the first video.









vulnerabilities of locks:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ
 
#4 ·
I’m a licensed locksmith. I don’t do a lot of safe work but I can recommend a few good choices and if you are near Houston sell them to you. I can also likely help you find a safe tech in other states.


The lock is not the only or even most likely
Vulnerability in your safe. It’s possible to manipulate / drill and open it fairly simply. Really professionals wouldn’t really
Call that a “ safe “ it’s not rated. It’s more a residential security container. And it’s likely not even rated that either. Those type of dates are really only good at keeping kids and smash and grab thieves out of your guns. I guess they can keep your wife from discovering how many guns you bought this month too. Not much else.

This may be enough for you. If it is I wouldn’t bother changing the lock. I would consider a better safe since you will likely be paying a tech more than the cost of a better safe to open this one if it breaks or spending a long time with a saws all.

If you want a gun safe that’s going to keep somebody out who has any idea how to open a safe , get an amsec that’s UL rated. Fort Knox , Mesa and gaurdall also make pretty good safes , but skip the low end.

If you want to save money, look for a large safe that’s not a “ gun safe “ but made for a business by amsec or Diebold etc. you can often find them cheap if you have the equipment and strength to move them. Again you want a safe that’s UL rated ideally or construction rated if not.

UL ratings are time/sides. So TL15-6 would mean it takes a trained professional with proper tools 15 minutes minimum to cut through any of the 6 sides.

Construction ratings are based on knowledge of safe design. They are A,b, c etc. with a being the least secure. You want at least a B , but a C rating is really good. An F is equivalent to UL TL30.

It’s important to remember that your personal security needs should dictate what safe you have. Honestly most people are fine with a dependable RSC or B rated safe as long as it’s properly installed. Installation is very important for safes especially those less than 350 pounds.

A gun room is also a good enough option for most people. Put en exterior door , re-enforced deadbolt and alarm sensor on a closet and it’s safer than your cheap safes.
 
#6 ·
I guess they can keep your wife from discovering how many guns you bought this month too.
Ok, that statement was a little TOO accurate for my liking :p

One of the things I've witnessed in the myriad of internet videos about this: it seems the most effective way to get a medium-sized safe open quickly is be able to get it on its back. Then you can use large hand tools (think a San Angelo bar) to start prying the door opening out of shape. That seems to be more effective than targeting the lock itself.

Case in point, bolt the safe to the floor and also put it in an area where a tool that can provide large quantities of leverage can't fit effectively.

Power tools + time can defeat just about anything. That's where early warning/alarms come in, where the intruders know they are on a very abbreviated time frame before you/authorities show up... before they use your compressor/ cutoff wheel from the garage to breach the side of the safe.

...and that thing's a beast, John - I can't fit that in my house without it self-installing into my basement :D:
 
#10 ·
I guess they can keep your wife from discovering how many guns you bought this month too.
Ok, that statement was a little TOO accurate for my liking


One of the things I've witnessed in the myriad of internet videos about this: it seems the most effective way to get a medium-sized safe open quickly is be able to get it on its back. Then you can use large hand tools (think a San Angelo bar) to start prying the door opening out of shape. That seems to be more effective than targeting the lock itself.

Case in point, bolt the safe to the floor and also put it in an area where a tool that can provide large quantities of leverage can't fit effectively.

Power tools + time can defeat just about anything. That's where early warning/alarms come in, where the intruders know they are on a very abbreviated time frame before you/authorities show up... before they use your compressor/ cutoff wheel from the garage to breach the side of the safe.

...and that thing's a beast, John - I can't fit that in my house without it self-installing into my basement
On cheaper safes , the cam system that moves the bolts can often be manipulated fairly easily sometimes a single hole has to be drilled sometimes the bar can simply be pushed back. This bypasses the lock itself. This is MUCH faster than a cutting attack or even attacking the lock. Some guys can do it almost as fast as they can enter a combination.

You won’t keep a safe cracker out of a safe. Of course unless you have 50k or more of value in the safe or 20k in gold/cash , a good safe cracker may turn his nose up at the job. After all beggars can’t be choosers BUT thieves can. While Guns are a bonus to low
Level thieves the real pros want money and jewelry as guns are bigger , legally more risky , easier to trace etc. they also prefer to rob a store that’s closed so they don’t get shot. .

Now your typical big box store safes are crackable by people with much lower skill levels and those guys would not be above stealing a few thousand in guns from
Somebodies house .

Typically your safe will keep your guns safe from the first robbery. Your typical bad guy will smash and grab and not have time or tools for the safe. He may not have skills. The first guy will either come back and hit the safe a few weeks later OR enlist a more skilled scumbag to do the job. He may just trade the info on the safe for a small amount of drugs /money.

Many homes get robbed again after the first robbery. 1 out of every three burglary victims is a repeat victim. And half of those where hit within the last 30
Days prior to the most recent job. The risk of being hit doesn’t return to average until 6 months has passed according to the Oxford journal of criminology.

Also they usually head for the bedroom. So do things to slow them down. A good thing to have is an auto locking key pad knob on your bedroom door and bedroom closet. Even if you don’t store a lot of valuables there. This slows them down and time is everything.
 
#8 ·
I was told by a locksmith that the most secure safe if one that can not be readily found. I have some ideas on that score. It will be to secure things if for some reason I ever get red flagged. They will bust open the most obvious but not realize that behind the wall or under the floor is a very large space. Burying scraps of rebar around to the yard for their metal detectors is something else to think about.
 
#15 ·
Wall safes are “ok”. They are usually easy to pull out of the wall, but can be hard to find.

FLOOR SAFES properly installed in a concrete foundation can be real hard to find and real hard to break into when you do. Cutting attacks are difficult as access is limited and you have to attack the safe door. You are going to have to use a sledge to busy it out OR actually drill / manipulate the lock. Using the sledge is too much like work most crooks. And cracking the safe will take a long time and some knowledge. Unless you are pretty rich , it’s not likely worth most crooks time.

The downside is floor safes are expensive to install and too small for most gun collections. Also many of us don’t have slabs.
 
#9 ·
Most of what is used is not a safe, but a Home Security Container per UL
A real safe, like the one pictured in this thread is massive weight-wise
If you have the $$$ get an AmSec or Brown aka a real safe
Otnerwise, get a Home Security Container- not a safe
Which is what I have
Zanotti Armor
Good for what it is - modular
Recommended
Otherwise, hope for the best
 
#13 ·
Mine isn't. Its sufficient to keep the kids out and to obfuscate the quantity of goodies from my lady. Beyond that i have no misconceptions about its ability to keep an actual thief out and have instead taken steps to secure my home and selected my neighborhood carefully.
 
#17 ·
Fun story: The wife and I used to be extremely poor. She was in med school with no job, I was in working and going to school. I wanted a safe so bad but we barely paid the bills. I didn’t have many guns but we lived in a trailer park and I was terrified of losing them to break in because I couldn’t afford to replace them. On date nights we were so broke we would walk around stores and window shop and I always looked at safes. When she graduated she got her sign on bonus at the hospital and bought me a safe.
 
#32 ·
And just another warning to all.....
I am a locksmith and safe tech.
If you have an electronic lock that is 5 years old or more... consider having a locksmith swap it out for a mechanical lock (preferably an s&g)...or change it every 5 years.
On Thursday I had to go open another failed s&g 6120 motorized electronic lock on a fortress (heritage economy line 30 minute rated safe).
Lock was manufactured 2007 but the safe purchase was in 2009.
Most of the failed electronics are about 7 years old if used infrequently like most gun safes (1 opening a day or less).
 
#36 ·
Almost everything I work on has battery(or batteries) behind the keypad.
I have worked on safes that had a model of Lagard electronic lock that had battery contacts on the face of the keypad for a backup form of providing power to the lock....but I haven't seen one in years.

If you do have an electronic lock, always use Duracell....that goes for safe locks, keyless deadbolts...essentially anything that takes a small battery...put a Duracell in it.

Doesn't hurt to put a volt meter on new batteries before you put them in....I have had a few brand new batteries that weren't fully charged. They are very rare but it is good to check before any battery in anything critical.
 
#45 ·
When I get calls that a safe won't open, they tell me it's a keypad, and that they have already put new batteries in....but usually not Duracell.
I would say maybe 1/3 or more of the time I tell them to put in Duracell and they work fine. I then ask how old the safe is and then give them advice based on what they have and it's age.
I have only had duracells leak when they have been left in something for like 2 years...
Hmmm, sounds like the electrical characteristics of the Duracell is different somehow, but I can't think how. I will keep that in mind though as my safe has the keypad. Wonder how hard it would be to retrofit my safe with a combo lock..
 
#48 ·
Hmmm, sounds like the electrical characteristics of the Duracell is different somehow, but I can't think how. I will keep that in mind though as my safe has the keypad. Wonder how hard it would be to retrofit my safe with a combo lock..
If it's a real safe the retrofit is easy for a locksmith. When I open a troubled or failed electronic safe lock, I almost always replace it with a mechanical as a good mechanical lock like an s&g 6700 series will last the rest of most people's lives....and mechanicals will usually warn you of a problem whole the digitals usually either work or they don't..

I won't own an electronic...it's it if it will fail....it when.
 
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