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Old 03-31-2015, 08:52 AM
pmprepper pmprepper is offline
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Default When is a firearm not considered a firearm?



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I'm sure a lot of the answers will come down to local laws, but I'm just curious if there's any federal definitions that may come into play. my question is when is a firearm ni longer considered a firearm? For example, does placing a pistol in a field stripped state allow you to transport it in the same bag as your ammunition?

My question really stems from the Henry AR7. The guns tears down and is carried in the stock. You can leave two loaded magazines in the stock as well. My question is would you get in trouble for transporting a firearm and ammunition together if you were to keep the AR7 in your car or BOB? It seems to me that since the gun is torn apart and in a state that can't be fired that it shouldn't be considered a firearm. Hiwever, I'm not willing to risk it based off of my best guess. Does anyone have any insight to this?
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Old 03-31-2015, 08:58 AM
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The receiver is legally the firearm for federal purposes on all post 1899 firearms.


Some states have different regulations for assembled/functional firearms, the federal code does not.

(there is a federal transport law on the books to allow people to transport firearms THROUGH places the firearms are not legal.

Check your state and local laws. Some places e answer to your question is yes.
Others, no.
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Old 03-31-2015, 09:00 AM
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What state are you in?

Federal law says

Notwithstanding any state or local law, a person shall be entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and transport such firearm if the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

This law is routinely ignored in some jusidictions

The part of the firearm with the serial number is ALWAYS a firearm
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtr100 View Post
...
The part of the firearm with the serial number is ALWAYS a firearm
However, note that:

- serial numbers were not required until 1968, so some older one may have none, or they may be only on some other part of the firearm than the receiver.

- lots of guns have multiple serial numbers on them, which may or may not all be the same.

- OS
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtr100 View Post
. . .
This law is routinely ignored in some jusidictions
. . .
This is the part to be mindful of. Learn the state(s) you are going to be traveling in, and what their laws are. Some are pretty straightforward, others are a corkscrew maze.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by juskom95 View Post
This is the part to be mindful of. Learn the state(s) you are going to be traveling in, and what their laws are. Some are pretty straightforward, others are a corkscrew maze.
In all the horror stories we see of folks being charged in NJ etc for gun possession in vehicles, I have yet to see one where the person actually was transporting them according to the "safe passage" part of FOPA.

- OS
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
In all the horror stories we see of folks being charged in NJ etc for gun possession in vehicles, I have yet to see one where the person actually was transporting them according to the "safe passage" part of FOPA.

- OS
Why even take the chance? There is always the story of the couple traveling through Maine, where the officer stopped them because they had a CCW/CCDW/CHL in FL.

I drive around IL now when traveling, because of their firearm laws and the non reciprocity agreement with KY.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by juskom95 View Post
Why even take the chance? There is always the story of the couple traveling through Maine, where the officer stopped them because they had a CCW/CCDW/CHL in FL.
And they would be fine if transporting firearms under dictates of FOPA. If not, then sure, must be compliant with state law.

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Originally Posted by juskom95 View Post
I drive around IL now when traveling, because of their firearm laws and the non reciprocity agreement with KY.
Meh. Same thing, FOPA rules. If not applicable, understand state law.

I'm guessing you also don't know that you can now have concealed loaded firearms in vehicle in IL with a permit from any state?

- OS
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
And they would be fine if transporting firearms under dictates of FOPA. If not, then sure, must be compliant with state law.
I know/understand FOPA, that does not mean the officer who stops someone does.

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I'm guessing you also don't know that you can now have concealed loaded firearms in vehicle in IL with a permit from any state?

- OS
The last time I checked IL's state page (forget the agency) it did not state that, and there was not a reciprocity agreement with any state. If it has changed recently it is new to me.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by juskom95 View Post
I know/understand FOPA, that does not mean the officer who stops someone does.
Then it will likely be money in your pocket eventually if falsely charged in direct opposition to federal law.

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Originally Posted by juskom95 View Post
The last time I checked IL's state page (forget the agency) it did not state that, and there was not a reciprocity agreement with any state. If it has changed recently it is new to me.
Dunno where to show you on a state cop page as all the ones I found with quick search are old outdated PDFs, maybe just being IL they choose not to "mention it", but the law is now such that:

"Illinois has state preemption for the transportation of any firearm and ammunition. Non-Illinois residents are granted a limited exception to lawfully carry a concealed firearm within a vehicle if they are eligible to carry a firearm in public under the laws of their own state. Non-residents who are permitted to possess a firearm in their own state are not required to have a FOID card."

It's from the new carry law that sets up the IL carry permit system, enacted legislative session of 2013:

From PUBLIC SAFETY
(430 ILCS 66/) Firearm Concealed Carry Act.

" (e) Nothing in this Act shall prohibit a non-resident from transporting a concealed firearm within his or her vehicle in Illinois, if the concealed firearm remains within his or her vehicle and the non-resident:
(1) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under federal law;
(2) is eligible to carry a firearm in public under the laws of his or her state or territory of residence, as evidenced by the possession of a concealed carry license or permit issued by his or her state of residence, if applicable; and
(3) is not in possession of a license under this Act.

If the non-resident leaves his or her vehicle unattended, he or she shall store the firearm within a locked vehicle or locked container within the vehicle in accordance with subsection (b) of Section 65 of this Act.

(Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13; 98-600, eff. 12-6-13.)"

It's included here in link from IL state senate, if you want to see something official from the state, document created 10/22/13:

http://www.senategop.state.il.us/por...y%20report.pdf

- OS
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Shoot View Post
Then it will likely be money in your pocket eventually if falsely charged in direct opposition to federal law.
It is still easier to avoid that entire issue and just drive around IL. Just because one might win in the end (if they have enough money to pay for a lawyer) is not reason to risk it.

Quote:
Dunno where to show you on a state cop page as all the ones I found with quick search are old outdated PDFs, maybe just being IL they choose not to "mention it", but the law is now such that:
That is probably the law, but refer above.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:20 PM
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Title 18 sec. 921. Definition of a firearm. Make sure you understand the legal definitions of the words used. ie. Person, individual etc. DO NOT USE A STANDARD DICTIONARY for your definitions.
A firearm is a suppressor, sawed off shot gun barrel less than 18" and a rifle with barrel length less than 16". Anything else is not a firearm. Definitions were obtained by Black's Law dictionary and corrnell law web site.
A vehicle is defined as a automobile weighting more than 10,000+1 lbs. Under the definition a machine is defined as a vehicle. It is a word play. Your daily car or truck is an automobile. Please be careful on how you read these "laws". Code IS NOT law.
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Old 03-31-2015, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camofarmer View Post
Title 18 sec. 921. Definition of a firearm. Make sure you understand the legal definitions of the words used. ie. Person, individual etc. DO NOT USE A STANDARD DICTIONARY for your definitions.
A firearm is a suppressor, sawed off shot gun barrel less than 18" and a rifle with barrel length less than 16". ...
??? What's with the specific NFA mention?

The very first definition of "firearm" in 18 U.S. Code 921:

"The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon"

- OS
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Old 04-01-2015, 03:21 AM
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Here in California it's the reciever that counts as the firearm. However, California doesn't consider black powder weapons to be firearms and even people with felony convictions can buy and own them.
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Old 04-01-2015, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camofarmer View Post
Title 18 sec. 921. Definition of a firearm. Make sure you understand the legal definitions of the words used. ie. Person, individual etc. DO NOT USE A STANDARD DICTIONARY for your definitions.
A firearm is a suppressor, sawed off shot gun barrel less than 18" and a rifle with barrel length less than 16". Anything else is not a firearm. Definitions were obtained by Black's Law dictionary and corrnell law web site.
A vehicle is defined as a automobile weighting more than 10,000+1 lbs. Under the definition a machine is defined as a vehicle. It is a word play. Your daily car or truck is an automobile. Please be careful on how you read these "laws". Code IS NOT law.
Your post is full of fail and is the kind of internet post that get's people into trouble when they take it as truth.
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Old 04-01-2015, 10:16 AM
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There is always debate about being locked not in the console or glove compartment. I think the FOPA means that you cant use the lock on the console/glove compartment to be a locked container. But if your locked container is in the console or glove compartment that is ok.

This is always hotly debated and Im not sure there is a definitive answer.
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Old 04-03-2015, 03:33 PM
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When is a firearm not considered a firearm?

Short answer: When your state or federal government says so.

"Research" and "Compliance" are the words to remember.
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