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Old 05-18-2014, 10:36 PM
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I think the semi-auto .308, plays a very pivotal role as a support rifle. SUPPORT, not primary. In practically any environment the benefits are easily defined. Like mentioned earlier, reach out at a further distance to disable a civilian or very light military vehicle. I'd rather hit a radiator, engine, etc. at 800 yards than 5-600, and with a heavier round than a 5.56.

Same applies to attempting to penetrate barriers. Someone at 800 yards, out of accurate 5.56 range, would be a good asset to have covering your movements and assisting in breaches, cover, etc. Plus the mag capacity is a major help over a bolt action. This not to be mistaken with a true sniping position though. Different animal altogether.

Yes we all know you can't carry as much ammo, heavier rifle, etc, but I'm getting ready to build another, I think its prudent. I know there exists the 6.5, 6.8spc, 458, etc, etc, however I prefer "common" rounds. Although, I admit, those are some pretty bad ass rounds.

Your tests might include the obstacles and targets others have mentioned, and note the times involved with neutralizing the threats as well. I'd be interested to read the results and see what others here recommend.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephpd View Post
Not to knock the .308 but I'd go for the 30-06. Granted the battle rifle would be a Garand or 1903. But they got us through several war before they came out with a larger magazine .in .308.
and muzzleloaders got us through the revolution & civil war. Whats your point?
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Hick View Post
Yes, but this is conventional warfare, where you have battalion sized forces on both sides fighting conventionally.

If you are talking about hit & run raids, ambushes, booby-traps, & other guerrilla operations out of the underground. Highest rate of fire & superior firepower do not win the battle

Plenty of men fell to punji sticks in Vietnam, this level of technology consists of a sharpened stick in the ground. Not very advanced, not very pretty either but it worked then & it works now.
The winner of any given firefight would most likely be the one with the highest rate of fire. With a strong infuse on most likely. Also this is very relevant today based upon your comments of "Yes, but this is conventional warfare" I think the only difference is what you and I would consider conventional. I base my definition of conventional upon this.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...ost-libya.html

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/0...to-spain-base/

http://publicintelligence.net/u-s-ar...aining-photos/
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Old 05-19-2014, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hick View Post
and muzzleloaders got us through the revolution & civil war. Whats your point?
The point is if your on a two way range and the man shooting back has any ability and also a 308 in semi automatic. And your rifle is an intermediate cartridge. Your at a major disadvantage especially If he engages you at a longer range. You will have to expose yourself just to close on your enemy. Studies during World Wars are great but the topics we are talking about are much more different. As has been said. There is no support If your out and about during a SHTF.

Bring enough gun.
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Old 05-19-2014, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dbag2014 View Post
The .308 would have been much better than the .223 for American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I don't care what anyone says, the .223 is just not the best combat round.

There is plenty of evidence that American troops were NOT making hits or kills on targets past 300 yards with the .223.

I would take a Smith and Wesson mp10 any day over a .223 for combat.
Well I do disagree with you. I spent time in both countries. And the 5.56 NATO was plenty effective the majority of the time. But when you needed to reach out and touch someone. There were options to chose from that civilians won't have.
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Old 05-19-2014, 01:39 AM
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I would hope at least one person in my group has some kind of .308 , it's a good round, not the greatest, but it fills a lot roles and does a really good job at it.
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWH1 View Post
The winner of any given firefight would most likely be the one with the highest rate of fire. With a strong infuse on most likely. Also this is very relevant today based upon your comments of "Yes, but this is conventional warfare" I think the only difference is what you and I would consider conventional. I base my definition of conventional upon this.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...ost-libya.html

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/0...to-spain-base/

http://publicintelligence.net/u-s-ar...aining-photos/
Have you ever been in an infantry unit?

I only ask because it isn't apparent in your posts if you understand how volume of fire is applied in a fire fight in order to maneuver toward an objective....but that's with a large military force and the armament that goes with it...

If you are a smaller force, lack the man power and don't have supply lines to project your military....you have to make each round count as much as possible and tactics need to adapt around those limitations. Doesn't matter if it's 762 or 556.

And for the record...308 all the way.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOracle View Post
Working up another article for ReadyMan Magazine and I could use some input.

I was just debating with my Navy SEAL co-host the merits of a .308 battle rifle. His point: there's not much of a tactical slot for a semi-auto .308. So, we'll probably build an article with him shooting the SCAR Heavy (.308) against the SCAR Light (.223). We might also shoot an Colt M4 against the Knight Armament AR-10. We'll do all of this on a dynamic range (running and shooting).

Anyway, I struggle with this question too. What IS the tactical slot for a semi-auto .308? I can see having a bolt-action .308 (or .300 Win Mag) AND an AR-15. But why a .308 semi-auto?

It seems like it does a worse job at almost every task than a bolt action/AR-15. Is it a compromise gun, where one gun is supposed to do the job of two, but not do the job well?

Also, what would be the best way to compare/contrast the .308 semi against the .223 semi in an active shoot? Any creative ideas?

(In fairness, I think the .308 is the IDEAL belt-fed machine gun round!)
As it stands with all the variables, including ammo availability the .308 is the battle rifle cartridge.

Ideally it would be a a .280 or 6.8mm type round but the ptb in the 1950s messed that one up alas.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:57 AM
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One point that some people miss is that on the AR platform and even some others it's possible to build a semiauto .308 that rivals many bolt guns for accuracy. The primary difference being the optics need for long distances vs. the optimal sighting for short range fast gun handling.
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Old 05-19-2014, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklin View Post
One point that some people miss is that on the AR platform and even some others it's possible to build a semiauto .308 that rivals many bolt guns for accuracy. The primary difference being the optics need for long distances vs. the optimal sighting for short range fast gun handling.
I think the bigger debate is at the <400m ranges. Nobody is arguing that the 308 does better at longer ranges so there is not really any point in mounting huge glass on your MBR if that's what its intended role will be. And there are plenty of people that can get hits at 600m with a 2.5-8x scope (just not me lol).

Now if you have a large open space and want to push out into the 800m land the glass (and more importantly the shooter) becomes more important.
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Old 05-19-2014, 07:59 AM
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4 SEAL co-workers & their rifles.
L>R: MK14 Mod 1, M4, MK14 Mod 0, M4.
Forgive me if I misidentified the 5.56 rifles...

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Old 05-19-2014, 08:00 AM
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.308.... turning cover into concealment since 1952....

the nice thing about .308 is the vast amount of bullet projectile types you can use on the civilian market with pretty wildly varying projectile weights that you can still make reliable in a semi-auto.... for instance i can run 110s grains up through 175 grains pretty easily in my RFB, FAL and PTR as long as i index the first two's gas systems properly.... that is a projectile weight range of over 58%... and you can push the lighter projectiles very very very fast giving you some pretty crazy terminal effects on both armored and unarmored opponents.

while i will conceed that multiple 308 platforms are not ideal for CQB, if you run a CQB course with an RFB you might find yourself surprised at how maneuverable and balanced it is.

5.56 is the least tool for the job... where the job can use several different tools.
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOracle View Post
Working up another article for ReadyMan Magazine and I could use some input.

I was just debating with my Navy SEAL co-host the merits of a .308 battle rifle. His point: there's not much of a tactical slot for a semi-auto .308. So, we'll probably build an article with him shooting the SCAR Heavy (.308) against the SCAR Light (.223). We might also shoot an Colt M4 against the Knight Armament AR-10. We'll do all of this on a dynamic range (running and shooting).

Anyway, I struggle with this question too. What IS the tactical slot for a semi-auto .308? I can see having a bolt-action .308 (or .300 Win Mag) AND an AR-15. But why a .308 semi-auto?

It seems like it does a worse job at almost every task than a bolt action/AR-15. Is it a compromise gun, where one gun is supposed to do the job of two, but not do the job well?

Also, what would be the best way to compare/contrast the .308 semi against the .223 semi in an active shoot? Any creative ideas?

(In fairness, I think the .308 is the IDEAL belt-fed machine gun round!)
If you want a valid comparison, test both at increasing ranges, barrier penetration and light anti-materiel use. Clearing houses and dense forest gives a clear advantage to the 5.56, but as you get out further to plains and mountainous terrain, overwatch, and vehicle penetration, the .308 edges into prominence.
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:26 AM
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I feel like I was under the impression for a service rifle to be considered a "battle rifle" it must fire a full powered cartridge? An intermediate cartridge is considered an assault rifle, so to be a Battle Rifle it must fire full powered ammo and can't be considered a Battle Rifle if it shoots intermediate ammunition, it is then an assault rifle.
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmless Drudge View Post
If you want a valid comparison, test both at increasing ranges, barrier penetration and light anti-materiel use. Clearing houses and dense forest gives a clear advantage to the 5.56, but as you get out further to plains and mountainous terrain, overwatch, and vehicle penetration, the .308 edges into prominence.
why do you give the edge to the 5.56 in dense forest??? id rather a caliber that has enough energy to go through trees in that scenario, especially deadfall...
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mefunkymxw View Post
why do you give the edge to the 5.56 in dense forest??? id rather a caliber that has enough energy to go through trees in that scenario, especially deadfall...
Personally, I would as well, but it seems that conventional wisdom puts us squarely in the minority.

Of course, I prefer a three line rifle all around, so I might be a bit biased.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:37 AM
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M21 or M24? That is the question. Whether is is nobler to slowly and deliberately engage five soles intent on doing harm to my brothers and sisters or to rapidly and accurately dispatch twenty of them to the nether regions.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:56 AM
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Just my .02.. I carry and use the 5.56.. Im older and wiser. If I need more fire power I change out upper and use the 300 black non surpressed 18" barrel. In my opinion it covers me in all areas of my concern. This way also my family unit, everyone can carry and use the same weapons design and spent brass can be reloaded for 5.56 or 300 black.
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Old 05-19-2014, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mefunkymxw View Post
why do you give the edge to the 5.56 in dense forest??? id rather a caliber that has enough energy to go through trees in that scenario, especially deadfall...
Because a .308 round won't "go through trees." It might penetrate tree branches, or not be so easily deflected, but if your target is taking cover behind a tree large enough to conceal them, even a .50 BMG likely won't penetrate completely.
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Old 05-19-2014, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by TheMonsantoPlanto View Post
Because a .308 round won't "go through trees."
Yes it will.

One of the things I did soon after I purchased my Scout was put a steel target behind a living tree (Oak) that a person could hide behind. I then shot 7.62mm NATO through the tree and hit the target from something like 80 yards away without fail.

That tree did not protect the target behind it.
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