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Old 09-23-2013, 09:50 AM
Jamesconn Jamesconn is offline
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Default Revolution period tax rate vs current tax rate



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I am single with no kids and I work at Walmart. I calculated that the government takes 19.21% of my meager earnings. How bad were the taxes when our forefathers started fighting?
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:03 AM
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Fun with google:

"Before 1763, Americans were the least taxed citizens in the western world. Colonial subjects were taxed, on average, a total of about one shilling per head per year. (Brief digression here: While these conversions are tenuous, and some might say meaningless, over the span of a couple centuries or so, I spent some time with some conversion, wage, exchange rate, and price index tables from the Census Bureau's Historical Statistics of the US, and came up with a conversion of one pound sterling in 1770 = about $150 in 1998, with a shilling equal to 1/20 of a pound sterling, or twelve pence = $7.50 today; the average wage for an urban laborer was around 5 shillings, equivalent to about $40, per day.) In Britain, the tax amount worked out to about 26 shillings per year (say around 200 bucks). So the American colonists, for all their bitching and moaning, were actually taxed at a much lower rate than their cousins who'd stayed in the old country. Still, as I say, it was the principle of the thing."

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ld-days-or-now



By the way, there were no income taxes for wage earners prior to 1900s. You wouldn't have paid taxes on your labor but you may have paid taxes when you bought certain imported items.
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:42 AM
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If I remember is was at 2%. But for now don't forget all the extra taxes for everything for hunting, fishing, tags for anything you do. Taxes for everything. So they can feed the lazy and stupid voters that don't care about anything but themselves. And don't care about the Country at all.

Our Founding Fathers did not believe you should vote unless you had land. The reason? Because if you were to stupid or irresponsible to own land you could not vote for what was right just for your own benefit. Sound familiar?
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:48 AM
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I don't know if y'all watch Sleepy Hollow the new TV series but there is a scene in the next episode where Icabod Crane(transported to modern-day America as part of the story line) Marvel's at the fact that the tax on a donut was nearly 10 percent and the Boston Tea Party was caused over a 2 percent tax.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:36 AM
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yeah, but back then the king couldn't just press a button and freeze all your bank accounts and cancel your credit cards etc...oh..and he had to send a bunch of less than best/brightest footsoldiers over on a 30 day boat trip so they could dress in bright red uniforms and march in a straight line...
today..our current King just calls his gal at the IRS, destroys your financial life with one keyboard stroke and then sends armored swat teams in to flashbang you in to submission...any questions why we are forking over more than half of our earnings to our new lord?
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:40 PM
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Not just stupidity, but vestigial/late medieval attitudes. Generally, blacks, Native Americans, women and poor European indentured servants couldn't own land. The people who owned land may have somewhat been in the minority.

Anyway, they didn't have the sort of taxes because the US was not an imperial national back then, fighting non-stop foreign wars. And probably the only large "military industrial complex" industries back then would have been shipbuilders for a fledgling US navy after 1776, but they would have undoubtedly been kept more busy by building merchant ships.

So as we saw the rise of industries offering "solutions" -- whether paved roads, lighthouses, an increasingly technological military, oil, the industrial age, space age, etc. you had no end of powerful contractors dangling solutions to politicians. And undoubtedly the biggest contractors breathe a sign of relief if their men in office enjoy spending (and therefore raising) a lot of tax dollars.

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Originally Posted by Rascals View Post
If I remember is was at 2%. But for now don't forget all the extra taxes for everything for hunting, fishing, tags for anything you do. Taxes for everything. So they can feed the lazy and stupid voters that don't care about anything but themselves. And don't care about the Country at all.

Our Founding Fathers did not believe you should vote unless you had land. The reason? Because if you were to stupid or irresponsible to own land you could not vote for what was right just for your own benefit. Sound familiar?
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascals View Post
If I remember is was at 2%. But for now don't forget all the extra taxes for everything for hunting, fishing, tags for anything you do. Taxes for everything. So they can feed the lazy and stupid voters that don't care about anything but themselves. And don't care about the Country at all.

Our Founding Fathers did not believe you should vote unless you had land. The reason? Because if you were to stupid or irresponsible to own land you could not vote for what was right just for your own benefit. Sound familiar?
Keep in mind half the population has less than an average IQ. I dont have specific proof, but my sense is people of average IQ are not very smart.

Now imagine the bottom 10%, people with emotional problems, ADHD, very low IQ etc. The system is designed to keep them from starving in the street (or whatever). Unfortunately some people will abuse the system.

What alternative would you propose?
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:15 PM
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Place your bets now for the tax rates of the next revolution period...
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:30 PM
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i dont think the american revolution was due to tax rates, i think it had to do with lack of representation in the british government at all.. that being said, the tax wasn't the sole reason for the revolution either.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:12 PM
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The American revolution was not limited to some sort of proletarian or populist revolt against the government.

Maybe there's another explanation. A growing number of elites here (the Founding Fathers, rich merchants and so on) had sufficient wealth, local power, and local ownership of the political process such that they probably did a reckoning of the books, basic accounting. And it dawned on them that they were net losers when it came to being a territory of England -- and would be more powerful if they self-governed and perhaps managed taxation themselves. Though it appears they didn't really have much power to tax early colonists.

Looks like the Founding Fathers financed the Revolutionary War by means of secret/private loans, and alot of money borrowed from the French. After the war they printed/debased the US currency and utilized other means which hurt the early US economy. Would be interesting to see a quick synopsis of how the US was funded for the first century or so.
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sacajawea View Post
Place your bets now for the tax rates of the next revolution period...
67% .........
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:36 PM
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I was thinking more like 90%... but I like your number better!!
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:56 PM
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While I feel we are overtaxed for what we get for our taxes, it does not make sense to compare today's rates versus the rates 200+ years ago.

The world and ways of life have changed.

Industrialization and now the microprocessor and automation has resulted in increased productivity which does not require significant human capital. The high tax rates go to ensuring everyone is kept productive as reasonably as possible even if the human capital is not put to the best use through bureaucratic functions.

Just look to all of the Arab spring activities and the correlation to high unemployment and people with nothing better to do than overthrow a government without a well thought out plan on the next step.
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:34 PM
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At face value the current ~20% is pretty awful compared to a historical 2% federal tax rate, but we do get quite a bit in return that our ancestors would be jealous of. Mostly in the form of superpower level military force and collective funding for science and civil building projects, but we all know a lot is just wasted in bureaucracy.

I don't think most people today would put up much more than a token verbal fuss until ~40%. In the ~50% range you'd start getting a lot of refusal to pay and civil disobedience type actions. Once you got close to 2/3 taxation, even the whiny doormats of today would start to revolt.
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonid View Post
At face value the current ~20% is pretty awful compared to a historical 2% federal tax rate, but we do get quite a bit in return that our ancestors would be jealous of. Mostly in the form of superpower level military force and collective funding for science and civil building projects, but we all know a lot is just wasted in bureaucracy.

I don't think most people today would put up much more than a token verbal fuss until ~40%. In the ~50% range you'd start getting a lot of refusal to pay and civil disobedience type actions. Once you got close to 2/3 taxation, even the whiny doormats of today would start to revolt.
when our tax rate was about 15 per cent and the super highly taxed swedes were taxed at an outrageous rate of 35 per cent we used to talk about how we'd rebel if we got anywhere close to 35 per cent.

Even most wealthy people are on the dole. Businesses, corporations, everyone gets something. How many so-called capitalist conservatives have taken a government handout to hire a minority or troubled person? As long as everyone is on the dole, they don't realize that they don't need the dole; all they need is their own money back.
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:30 PM
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If you want to know why, they went to war. Read the, Declaration of Independence.
A lot of the men that signed it, lost everything. Land, monies, their family and/or their life.
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:29 AM
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There's that patriarchal humans = livestock meme again. What right does a government have to take it upon itself to "keep people busy"? Spinning their gears, wasting their lives in jail-like cubicles, or moving rocks from A to B then back to A again.

Maybe this comes from some sort of puritanical strain in the American tradition of idle hands doing the devil's work, so the slaveowner or self-appointed control-freak sees it his personal responsibility to keep people busy for its own sake. Clearly this figures big into US social control policy, because it is absolutely taboo to look at shortening the work week and letting people take advantage of automation -- for the first time in history -- rather than working continually more pointless jobs.

There's no comparison with these neo-colonial despotic Western-run governments and here. Several decades ago, when FDR created CCC make-work projects to keep young men occupied you should imagine what their homes looked like. Shanty towns, shoddy construction, unable to put food on the table, little or no personal goods, etc. So the theory is that these guys are not only idle, but bored, broke, and without bread & circuses. Put them to work, feed them, etc.

Today, however, even a middle-class household is "richer" than the average workplace. Likely more electronics, better food, far more entertainment, better view than sitting in the cube all day. We'll end up with a revolution HERE if we continue using work as social control policy and turning it into a big prison labor camp. But more despicable than this is the self-anointed attitude out there that it's their "job" to keep others busy. What else? Change their diaper?

The reality is that I have way more real, productive and useful things to do here at home than I do in the cubicle. Big list of tangible home improvement projects. But will I be doing much productive today? No, I'll be rotting in a cube.

Taxation is used to keep people doing productive things???? Like making perpetual war, bailing out banks and paychecks for already-rich Ivy League bureaucrats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGecko View Post
While I feel we are overtaxed for what we get for our taxes, it does not make sense to compare today's rates versus the rates 200+ years ago.

The world and ways of life have changed.

Industrialization and now the microprocessor and automation has resulted in increased productivity which does not require significant human capital. The high tax rates go to ensuring everyone is kept productive as reasonably as possible even if the human capital is not put to the best use through bureaucratic functions.

Just look to all of the Arab spring activities and the correlation to high unemployment and people with nothing better to do than overthrow a government without a well thought out plan on the next step.
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txprep View Post
Keep in mind half the population has less than an average IQ. I dont have specific proof, but my sense is people of average IQ are not very smart.

Now imagine the bottom 10%, people with emotional problems, ADHD, very low IQ etc. The system is designed to keep them from starving in the street (or whatever). Unfortunately some people will abuse the system.

What alternative would you propose?
I have an idea no welfare just natural selection :O

Natural selection with charity
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
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I have an idea no welfare just natural selection :O

Natural selection with charity
It worked for a long time, but some "one" thought they could do it better.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacajawea View Post
It worked for a long time, but some "one" thought they could do it better.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "worked". You can go to any third world country and see many many people begging on the streets. People living in shanty towns, people living in garbage dumps.

If that is your definition of working..
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