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Old 03-25-2020, 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Off-Grid
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And yet, they were ALL keeping Sabbath, weren't they?
As mentioned in my earlier post, there is no evidence in any of Paul's letters or the general letters that the church met on the Sabbath or that any church kept the sabbath. Paul went to the synagogues on the sabbath because that's where the Jews were. Duh!

Originally posted by Off-Grid
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Heb 4:9* So there remains a Sabbath-keeping for the people of Elohim. (The Greek word is sabattismos, which means Sabbath-keeping).*
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Heb 4:9* There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.*
There is no English word Sabbath in Hebrews. This word translated rest is the Greek word sabbatismos which according to Strong's Concordance means “rest” , a repose of Christianity as a type of Christianity. No more work, all is done, Heaven. Even the context shows this and does not even hint at keeping the sabbath day.

sabbatismos
sab-bat-is-mos'
From a derivative of G4521; a “sabbatism”, that is, (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven): - rest.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

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Col 2:16* Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
This is the only time the Greek word sabbaton translated sabbath days is used outside of the Gospels and Acts. It is translated sabbath day 60 times and some form of week 8 times.

sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.
Total KJV occurrences: 68

originally posted by Off-Grid
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Isa 66:23* “And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה.
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Isa 66:23* And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.*
Isaiah 66:15-24 is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ and the time of the millennium. My earlier posts were concerning the church age. Scripture states that things will be different in the millennium. Sacrifices will return (commemorating what Christ has already done), Christ will be on earth, and all nations will worship Christ. And yes the sabbath will probably be reinstituted. But I can't find any verse that says so.
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Old 03-25-2020, 07:08 PM
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As mentioned in my earlier post, there is no evidence in any of Paul's letters or the general letters that the church met on the Sabbath or that any church kept the sabbath. Paul went to the synagogues on the sabbath because that's where the Jews were. Duh!
You need to get a Bible...yours must be neutered.

Act 13:42* And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.*

Act 13:44* And on the next Sabbath almost all the city came together to hear the Word of Elohim.

Act 15:21* “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”*

Act 16:13* And on the Sabbath day we went outside the city by a river, where there used to be prayer. And having sat down we were speaking to the women who met there.*

Act 18:4* And he was reasoning in the congregation every Sabbath, and won over both Yehuḏim and Greeks.*

Duh.

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Old 03-25-2020, 07:11 PM
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And yes the sabbath will probably be reinstituted.
It was never done away with. No need to reinstitute.

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Old 03-25-2020, 08:06 PM
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For anyone that chose not to click the link I provided. Here's where sun-day worship came from.
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About 100 years before Christianity, Egyptian Mithraists introduced the festival of Sunday, dedicated to worshiping the sun, into the Roman Empire. Later, as Christianity grew, church leaders wished to increase the numbers of the church. In order to make the gospel more attractive to non-Christians, pagan customs were incorporated into the church’s ceremonies. The custom of Sunday worship was welcomed by Christians who desired to differentiate themselves from the Jews, whom they hated because of the Jews’ rejection of the Savior. The first day of the week began to be recognized as both a religious and civil holiday. By the end of the second century, Christians considered it sinful to work on Sunday.

The Roman emperor Constantine, a former sun-worshiper, professed conversion to Christianity, though his subsequent actions suggest the “conversion” was more of a political move than a genuine heart change. Constantine named himself Bishop of the Catholic Church and enacted the first civil law regarding Sunday observance in A.D. 321.
On the venerable day of the sun let the magistrate and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however, persons engaged in agricultural work may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain growing or for vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. —Schaff’s History of the Christian Church, vol. III, chap. 75.
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:01 PM
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I thank everyone for your participation in this thread.

For the record. I was a pretty staunch "keeper of the law" from about the late 80s until the late 90s (give or take). I had all the books and I was convinced that keeping the Old Testament law was necessary to find favor with God. I did everything in my power to earn His love and favor. So I'm not new to the conversation and I've used all the same arguments FOR keeping the law that we've seen in this thread.

I don't condemn anyone who thinks they can keep the law. More power to them. I wish them well. But somewhere along that path I became convinced that I was barking up the wrong tree. As I was demanding that everyone MUST keep the law ... it dawned on me that I was NOT really keeping the law, myself. I mean ... I was resting on the Sabbath (except for the times I would take a brisk walk or do some gardening) and I wasn't killing anyone (although I considered non-law-keepers to be fools) and I was trying not to covet (even though I did sometimes) and I wasn't physically committing adultery (even though I did find myself lusting after women from time to time) and I wasn't stealing (although I would look for unique loopholes on my tax return) and I honored my mother and father (except for the times I blamed my father for not being a very good parent). Well ... the list sorta goes on. In other words ... as hard as I attempted to make the outside of my cup shine ... I was pretty filthy on the inside.

I used to tell folks that they MUST keep the Sabbath and I used the following verse as the hammer on the head of that nail:

Matthew 5:18, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

But a Christian asked me once if I sacrificed goats or lambs or if I offered sheave offerings. What a pain!! That wasn't the point. The point was that HE was supposed to keep the Sabbath. Period! But his nagging question sorta ate at me. I had used Matthew 5:18 to PROVE that the entire law was still in effect and yet I wasn't actually keeping the "entire law." Later, I was reading a post on CARM in which someone had asked if lawkeepers still stoned Sabbath-breakers. Well of course not, I thought to myself. But wait ... what about that Matthew 5:18 verse that says that ALL the law was in effect until all be fulfilled? Shoot! What a bother! Who cares? For heavens sake -- MOST of the law is still in effect -- isn't it?

Anyway, the seed had been planted and I began to realize what an absolute hypocrite I had been for all those years. Here I was telling everyone else that they must keep the law and feeling righteous (or was it self-righteous?) the entire time. Man did I have the proverbial bull by the horns! Except for one glaring contradiction. I wasn't actually "keeping the law" in reality. I was only announcing to the world that I was while trying to convince myself of the same. But I was still lusting and coveting and showing anger and holding onto resentment and simply being a fallen man in need of a Savior. I wasn't actually one bit better than my neighbor. I was still a born sinner in need of a Savior.

Anyway, that's a little bit of my story. Would I or could I keep the Old Testament Law requiring me to stone a good person for working on the Sabbath (back to the OP). Nope ... I could not and would not even though Moses required it of me.

So go ahead and keep the law if you think you can and go ahead trying to convince the world that you're a righteous law-keeper. I know better because I've already been there. We're ALL fallen sinners in need of a Savior.

John 1:17, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
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Old 03-25-2020, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post

So go ahead and keep the law if you think you can
I'll do my best!

Rom 3:31* Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah

Rom 6:1-2* What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?*

Rom 2:13* For not the hearers of the Torah are righteous in the sight of Elohim, but the doers of the Torah shall be declared right.

Rom 8:4-8* so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.*For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.*For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace. Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed is it able, and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.*

1Jn 2:3-6* And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked.*

Rev 14:12* Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע.

Rev 22:14* “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

Mat 7:21-23* “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.* “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’** “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

2Pe 2:20-22* For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first.* For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command delivered unto them. Footnote: eThe singular “command” often means “commands” – see 1Ti_6:14, Deu_17:20, Psa_19:8.*For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” Pro_26:11 and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”*

Happy trails!
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Old 03-25-2020, 11:29 PM
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Let me ask the question a different way. If one decides he/she doesn't want to keep the commands or that he/she doesn't have to keep them what does one do with them? Does one live a life of willful abandon ignoring them, or what? It just dawned on me tonight that no-one has ever explained to me what they did with them. If they are believers in every other sense how do they avoid the commands? There must be an answer as they seem quite vehement about their belief.
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Old 03-26-2020, 12:17 AM
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Interesting, I thought I already posted this but maybe it didn't go through as it certainly isn't in here...

I remembered this from a study I did on the gospels a few years back and looked it up as it has to do with Jesus's perspective on the Sabbath..

Mark 2:23-27 KJV

"23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungered, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them, the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."



I can list a number of verses supporting a strict code on the Sabbath as well. I have found that you can find passages in the bible to support pretty much whatever view you desire. In the end it is like a game of chess, whomever knows the scripture better wins. I have an upper hand on most in that department as I have spent many thousands of hours studying the bible over a period of 45 years, having eidetic memory also helps...

I would again state that I have no use for any of the Abrahamic faiths, though when I was young I was highly religious and raised by some of the most fanatically religious people you could imagine. I have kept up study over the decades as religion fascinates me, though I see it for what it really is and not what I want it or need it to be...

Woops... Guess I accidentally posted this on the meat freezing thread accidentally...
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Old 03-26-2020, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
I remembered this from a study I did on the gospels a few years back and looked it up as it has to do with Jesus's perspective on the Sabbath..

Mark 2:23-27 KJV

"23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungered, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them, the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."
The Pharisees built a fence around the law with more restrictions than intended. Y'shua was attacking that view. The Jews even lit Shabbat candles before sundown so as not to perform work by lighting them on the Sabbath. Y'shua didn't abolish the Sabbath by doing this.
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Old 03-26-2020, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
Interesting, I thought I already posted this but maybe it didn't go through as it certainly isn't in here...

I remembered this from a study I did on the gospels a few years back and looked it up as it has to do with Jesus's perspective on the Sabbath..

Mark 2:23-27 KJV

"23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungered, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them, the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."



I can list a number of verses supporting a strict code on the Sabbath as well. I have found that you can find passages in the bible to support pretty much whatever view you desire. In the end it is like a game of chess, whomever knows the scripture better wins. I have an upper hand on most in that department as I have spent many thousands of hours studying the bible over a period of 45 years, having eidetic memory also helps...

I would again state that I have no use for any of the Abrahamic faiths, though when I was young I was highly religious and raised by some of the most fanatically religious people you could imagine. I have kept up study over the decades as religion fascinates me, though I see it for what it really is and not what I want it or need it to be...

Woops... Guess I accidentally posted this on the meat freezing thread accidentally...

Forgot about that one. Nice! David didn't "keep the Sabbath" in the lawful and/or prescribed manner in this case and neither did Christ and the disciples. Many of today's cops, doctors, nurses, paramedics, electrical workers, etc. are in a situation where they need to earn their "shewbread" or "ears of corn" on the Sabbath day. He who is without sin ... cast the first stone.
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Old 03-26-2020, 07:48 AM
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Happy trails!

You as well! Nice conversing with you.
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Old 03-26-2020, 09:46 AM
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I have found that you can find passages in the bible to support pretty much whatever view you desire.
True. My Bible Study leader points out all the time how the consistent message of the Bible is to not go too far to the right or too far to the left but stay on the straight and narrow.

IMO, the Bible is not written for the low intelligence of today's mind. It was written by an ancient and foreign culture who communicated by stories. Today's living are far too impatient for that. People today just want to be told "the bottom line." Then folks like you (and me, frankly) want to debate it.

Let me give you an example. It is said that God is all merciful. Some say any punishment goes against that claim. All things that exist are limited. God's mercy is tempered by ALSO being just. Regarding winning; in sports some times a team is in scoring position, such as on the 2 yard line, when time runs out.

You are not going to "win" the game of life for it ends for all of us. Playing word games will not save you.

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I have an upper hand on most in that department as I have spent many thousands of hours studying the bible over a period of 45 years ... In the end it is like a game of chess, whomever knows the scripture better wins.
Since you think this is a competition to win, you have learned NOTHING in all your hours of study.

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Guess I accidentally posted this on the meat freezing thread accidentally...
There's a meat freezing thread?


The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4 ESV
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:22 AM
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If you believe in Jesus you don't need to keep the OT Sabbath laws. He said He was the Master of Sabbath and he basically deactivated those laws (Sabbath was made for Man not Man for Sabbath). If you believe Jesus is NOT the Master of Sabbath for whatever reason you will keep those laws.
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:33 AM
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Jesus ... basically deactivated those laws
If this is true, why did Jesus say he did not come to abolish the law?


Do not think that I have come to overturn or do away with the law or the words of our prophets. To the contrary: I have not come to overturn them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:17 (VOICE)
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:35 AM
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doesn't want to keep the commands
I have thousands of sabbath keeping friends. One thing that stands out when (online) I ask them how honoring Sabbath has changed their walk, they are unanimous in saying that honoring that specified day was as a key that unlocked a door to deeper understanding. Most will miss out on that...but it's shown in Scripture....

Joh 9:14* Now it was a Sabbath when יהושע made the clay and opened his eyes.*

Psa 19:7* The Torah of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple;*
Psa 19:8* The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes

Etc...
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:53 AM
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If this is true, why did Jesus say he did not come to abolish the law?


Do not think that I have come to overturn or do away with the law or the words of our prophets. To the contrary: I have not come to overturn them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:17 (VOICE)
He didn't and did at the same time. He is the Old Law and the New.

"For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. "
John 5:46

"A new law I give you".
John 13:34
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:02 AM
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You are not going to "win" the game of life for it ends for all of us. Playing word games will not save you.

Since you think this is a competition to win, you have learned NOTHING in all your hours of study.

The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 33:4 ESV
I would remind you that "I" am not a Christian and I have no use at all for Christianity or any of the Abrahamic faiths. I see it all as interesting myth and some useful social information gleaned from thousands of years of existence.

I really have no interest in this argument, and I can support either view with scripture from the bible. I don't have a horse in this race as I don't believe any of this in the first place. Kind of hard to for me to "win" anything here. The winners and losers here will be amongst you guys who do believe in this stuff... While I couldn't give two whits about what anyone believes from the bible my adoptive family does and they are constantly arguing about what Christians should be and hence all of society should be. I consider it an academic win when I can stop their rampaging desire to force everyone around them to change to their specific belief by shaking their belief in that with their own bibles scripture. It is basically the same thing that Jesus did with the Pharisees, his understanding of the scripture was well beyond theirs and he could put it together to prove them wrong on just about any point he desired. He was to the Judaic and later Christian religion what Einstein was to physics.

I guarantee you that there are those intending to "win" this argument by proving their belief through biblical scripture in here. I would not be one of them as I previously stated I do not even have a horse in this race to begin with.

I just noted a rather one sided argument in favor of the seriousness of the Sabbath, which I did not help with my Seventh Day Adventist comments on their views of the importance of the Sabbath. I thought it would be helpful to also put in the opposing biblical view as well to give support to both sides of the argument equally. Myself I do not see any of this as anything more than a combination of history, sociology and mythology.

I do find wisdom in the social idea of taking a day off from the stress of life, there is in fact wisdom in many areas of the bible, some of it really quite fascinating. I love the passage that states the sins of the father will follow for seven generations, we know now that RNA switches switched in one generation will follow through generations after. Without a modern scientific process the people had enough wisdom to see this relationship without understanding the underlying mechanism. This is the basis of my fascination with religion, all religions, is the social wisdom that they impart under the auspices of "the will of God".
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:03 AM
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Let me ask the question a different way. If one decides he/she doesn't want to keep the commands or that he/she doesn't have to keep them what does one do with them? Does one live a life of willful abandon ignoring them, or what? It just dawned on me tonight that no-one has ever explained to me what they did with them. If they are believers in every other sense how do they avoid the commands? There must be an answer as they seem quite vehement about their belief.
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:05 AM
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I would remind you that "I" am not a Christian and I have no use at all for Christianity or any of the Abrahamic faiths. I see it all as interesting myth and some useful social information gleaned from thousands of years of existence.

I really have no interest in this argument, and I can support either view with scripture from the bible. I don't have a horse in this race as I don't believe any of this in the first place. Kind of hard to for me to "win" anything here. The winners and losers here will be amongst you guys who do believe in this stuff... While I couldn't give two whits about what anyone believes from the bible my adoptive family does and they are constantly arguing about what Christians should be and hence all of society should be. I consider it an academic win when I can stop their rampaging desire to force everyone around them to change to their specific belief by shaking their belief in that with their own bibles scripture. It is basically the same thing that Jesus did with the Pharisees, his understanding of the scripture was well beyond theirs and he could put it together to prove them wrong on just about any point he desired. He was to the Judaic and later Christian religion what Einstein was to physics.

I guarantee you that there are those intending to "win" this argument by proving their belief through biblical scripture in here. I would be one of them as I previously stated I do not even have a horse in this race to begin with.

I just noted a rather one sided argument in favor of the seriousness of the Sabbath, which I did not help with my Seventh Day comments on their views of the importance of the Sabbath. I thought it would be helpful to also put in the opposing biblical view as well to give support both sides of the argument equally. Myself I do not see any of this as anything more than a combination of history, sociology and mythology.

I do find wisdom in the social idea of taking a day off from the stress of life, there is in fact wisdom in many areas of the bible, some of it really quite fascinating. I love the passage that states the sins of the father will follow for seven generations, we know now that RNA switches switched in one generation will follow through generations after. Without a modern scientific process the people had enough wisdom to see this relationship without understanding the underlying mechanism. This is the basis of my fascination with religion, all religions is the social wisdom that they impart under the auspices of "the will of God".

Thanks for your input. I hope you're visited by the Holy Spirit at some future time. Keep your mind and heart open. You never know when He may bring you a message.
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Old 03-26-2020, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
I would remind you that "I" am not a Christian and I have no use at all for Christianity or any of the Abrahamic faiths. I see it all as interesting myth and some useful social information gleaned from thousands of years of existence.

I really have no interest in this argument, and I can support either view with scripture from the bible. I don't have a horse in this race as I don't believe any of this in the first place. Kind of hard to for me to "win" anything here. The winners and losers here will be amongst you guys who do believe in this stuff... While I couldn't give two whits about what anyone believes from the bible my adoptive family does and they are constantly arguing about what Christians should be and hence all of society should be. I consider it an academic win when I can stop their rampaging desire to force everyone around them to change to their specific belief by shaking their belief in that with their own bibles scripture. It is basically the same thing that Jesus did with the Pharisees, his understanding of the scripture was well beyond theirs and he could put it together to prove them wrong on just about any point he desired. He was to the Judaic and later Christian religion what Einstein was to physics.

I guarantee you that there are those intending to "win" this argument by proving their belief through biblical scripture in here. I would not be one of them as I previously stated I do not even have a horse in this race to begin with.

I just noted a rather one sided argument in favor of the seriousness of the Sabbath, which I did not help with my Seventh Day Adventist comments on their views of the importance of the Sabbath. I thought it would be helpful to also put in the opposing biblical view as well to give support to both sides of the argument equally. Myself I do not see any of this as anything more than a combination of history, sociology and mythology.

I do find wisdom in the social idea of taking a day off from the stress of life, there is in fact wisdom in many areas of the bible, some of it really quite fascinating. I love the passage that states the sins of the father will follow for seven generations, we know now that RNA switches switched in one generation will follow through generations after. Without a modern scientific process the people had enough wisdom to see this relationship without understanding the underlying mechanism. This is the basis of my fascination with religion, all religions, is the social wisdom that they impart under the auspices of "the will of God".
I too hope the Holy Spirit gives you a tap on the shoulder (and will so pray for you). I believed much as you do until he showed me that evolution evidence was really evidence of the flood.
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