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Old 06-01-2019, 06:13 PM
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Default Airbags and EMP



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I am currently recieving Firefighter training
We just covered airbags; airbags are deployed by a electrically fired circuit (electronic?) similar to a blasting cap.
Does anyone know if testing has been done to determine if an EMP could would trigger a cars airbags while simultaneously killing the ignition system?
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:02 PM
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Heck Airbags go off for no reason now. Lots of law suits/recalls.

Regular electric blasting caps can likely pop given enough power. One of the senior engineering design lectures at school back in the 90's was on the blasting caps for the nuke cruse missile.

A sapphire was shot into a priming charge from a tuned coil. Only the proper frequency would active the device.
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Does anyone know if testing has been done to determine if an EMP could would trigger a cars airbags while simultaneously killing the ignition system?

No. There has been no such testing.

The only testing that was done many people do not trust...but for what it is worth that testing showed little to no effect on cars.
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Old 06-02-2019, 08:33 AM
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Air bags can be deployed by any small stray current. The SDM(module) usually contains enough energy to deploy the system for up to 10 minutes after the battery has been disconnected. That is something to think about. As a mechanic we are told to unhook batteries and give a system 30 minutes to discharge but no one ever does. I imagine any voltage spike could cause them to go off. The propellant used is sodium azide. Think solid rocket fuel, like in model rockets. A small 9v battery can be used to ignite it so it doesn't take much.
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:25 PM
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If you do get it out of the initiator, be careful as sodium aside is extremely toxic and can be fatal in very low quantities.
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Old 07-05-2019, 12:36 PM
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Great responses so far; Charlie' it is neat to know that a lecture was on the topic, it would be interesting to get a link to lectures on this topic,
JL1 the training officer in my couirse used small batteries to trip the air bags and the seat belt locks too.
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Old 07-05-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim in NZ View Post
If you do get it out of the initiator, be careful as sodium aside is extremely toxic and can be fatal in very low quantities.
It's good that we are forced to buy safety devices that can kill or maim us in many ways and have been on constant recall lists for the last decade.
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Old 07-05-2019, 03:27 PM
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it was an interesting the same sensor that will initiate air bag will set off the charge that causes the seat belt to tighten and lock. so if some says after the accident they couldn't get the seatbelt on because it was locked they may be less than truthful cause the lock doesn't kick in until after the accident.
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Old 07-05-2019, 04:37 PM
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it was an interesting the same sensor that will initiate air bag will set off the charge that causes the seat belt to tighten and lock. so if some says after the accident they couldn't get the seatbelt on because it was locked they may be less than truthful cause the lock doesn't kick in until after the accident.
Huh? My seat belts lock up every time I make a slight turn or accel/decel.
No explosives involved.
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:21 AM
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Huh? My seat belts lock up every time I make a slight turn or accel/decel.
No explosives involved.
Modern SRS systems tighten the belt at impact- itís not the locking of the belt you feel from low g maneuvers, but a electrically fired spring retractor. I believe they have been required on st least the drivers seat in cars since 1995. The drivers seat is obviously the closest to the airbag.
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:26 AM
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Wow, I did not know that!

"During a crash, a device called a pretensioner uses an explosive charge to lock the seat belt in place. The company said the device may generate excessive sparks.

Ford will fix the problem for free and said in a securities filing the recall would cost about $140 million. The company said the cost would be reflected in third-quarter earnings but Ford left unchanged its guidance for full-year 2018 adjusted earnings.

The recall covers 2015-2018 Ford F-150 Regular Cab and SuperCrew Cab vehicles in North America for driver and front passenger seat-belt pretensioners."


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1LM1OA
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Old 07-06-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
No. There has been no such testing.

The only testing that was done many people do not trust...but for what it is worth that testing showed little to no effect on cars.
EMP, no, but they have tested the systems under larger fields. Lightning strikes 2kW ham radios and CBs are of significant concern. Iíve driven F350s to within 100í of 5 million watt peak EIRP radars- areas that are prohibited for general public exposure ( based on average power). Even some 2 way radios and GPS wouldnít function when the radar swept you.
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Old 07-06-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by charliemeyer007 View Post
Heck Airbags go off for no reason now. Lots of law suits/recalls.

Regular electric blasting caps can likely pop given enough power. One of the senior engineering design lectures at school back in the 90's was on the blasting caps for the nuke cruse missile.

A sapphire was shot into a priming charge from a tuned coil. Only the proper frequency would active the device.
Maybe... Iím skeptical- it would dispute a lot of public released information about PALs and would actually make it easier to fire a captured nuclear weapon. The actual design is classified, of that there is no doubt.

The weapons blasting caps I have seen were build into circuits board ( essentially printed exploding bridge wires) which could contain filters to reject fire control radars- that being the biggest single concern. No idea how pervasive these are, but I used to do the electromagnetic tests on them in college.

During the 2000 olympics the Australians took 2 way radios away from their EOD teams and gave them cellphones due to the lower EIRP. This lead to a call to me from some AF EOD guys that I had worked with, and knew I had tried ( unsuccessfully) to set off commercial blasting caps with radio transmitters. Anyway, I repeated the testing with calibrated field strength measurements- we were virtually unsuccessful- except for using a giant log periodic antenna with a 100w transmitter to set of a cap whose wires had been arranged like a dipole and was in the near field of the antenna. Nothing real world, even at a 1000 watts, but it was a fun excercise. Note not setting off the cap is not the same thing as safe, there is a huge range between what IME says is safe, and what can be proved to be dangerous.

Shortly after that was 9/11, which lead to a huge military interest in RF susceptibility of detonators due to IEDs in the GWOT, particularly since the military would now bring jammers into a IED event
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Old 07-06-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
Wow, I did not know that!

"During a crash, a device called a pretensioner uses an explosive charge to lock the seat belt in place. The company said the device may generate excessive sparks.

Ford will fix the problem for free and said in a securities filing the recall would cost about $140 million. The company said the cost would be reflected in third-quarter earnings but Ford left unchanged its guidance for full-year 2018 adjusted earnings.

The recall covers 2015-2018 Ford F-150 Regular Cab and SuperCrew Cab vehicles in North America for driver and front passenger seat-belt pretensioners."

Seatbelt retractors have an inertia device built in that are designed to lock on sudden stops. The pretensioners can be on the retractor or anchor side and when deployed will take up any slack in the system. Once deployed they are done. They used to also sew a loop in the belt webbing so the system will have some give, a cushioned stop of sorts. Haven't noticed if they still do that. Most of the GM recalls we do are reprograms. Still have a few air bag replacements though.
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Old 07-06-2019, 02:14 PM
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So if I get in a wreck with my Honda, it will look like the 4th of july.
multiple seat belt explosions, airbag explosions.

Reminds me of the news this morning. Someone in Texas shot at another vehicle as it was pulling away and set off a crap ton of fireworks inside the vehicle.
There were little kids in the backseat who I think were badly burned.

Here is the coverage. North Harris County. Tragic. OMG, infants in critical condition. damn.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/family-suf...ry?id=64148471

https://www.khou.com/article/news/cr...c-87c134efee40
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Old 07-06-2019, 03:59 PM
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Is that airbag systems connected to really long wires that can pick up EMP? No? Then I guess they'll be fine.
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Old 03-13-2020, 05:32 PM
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An assembled nuclear weapon acts as its own Faraday cage. There are tons of declassified documents on DOE Opennet on EMR testing on certain aircraft/weapon configurations.
Unassembled weapons are of course susceptible to electrostatic discharge and theoretically EMP effects (we took certain measures to equalize any potential during weapon tech ops).


This film covers nuclear effects on some weapon components-

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Old 03-13-2020, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike46370 View Post
An assembled nuclear weapon acts as its own Faraday cage. There are tons of declassified documents on DOE Opennet on EMR testing on certain aircraft/weapon configurations.
Unassembled weapons are of course susceptible to electrostatic discharge and theoretically EMP effects (we took certain measures to equalize any potential during weapon tech ops).


This film covers nuclear effects on some weapon components-

NUCLEAR EFFECTS TESTING AT WHITE SANDS - YouTube
What does this have to do with anything?
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:15 PM
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It's in response to Country Boy's post.
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Old 03-15-2020, 11:47 PM
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old electric blasting caps will fire at 12 volts 1 amp.

Newer electric blasting caps take around 300 volts 5 amps.
and can be set off with a bbq ignighter
https://www.acehardware.com/departme...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

In some places i have mined we now use shock tube detonators a non electric system. i have blasted under interstate electrical grid lines and in areas with high power radar units operating.

The US military is now going to this non electric system on weapons due to EMP effects.
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