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Old 06-15-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OhioMan View Post
I believe the evidence says the early church (believers) were a group of Jews called by Christ. They became the church in Acts 2. From there the Church (or believers) spread. Early churches were told about by Christ.

The Greek island of Patmos, Jesus Christ instructs John of Patmos to: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Each early Church had it's own unique problems, they were anything but unified. The Church of Ephesus as example was known for having labored hard and not fainted, and separating themselves from the wicked; admonished for having forsaken its first love.

The early Church in Thyatira however was known for its charity, whose "latter works are greater than the former. They did hold the teachings of a false prophetess.

The early Church on Pergamum is said to be where 'Satan's seat' or 'throne' is; but they needed to repent of allowing false teachers (Rev 2:16)

I believe the Catholic Church is "a" Church but never "the" Church that came along years later in Rome after many churches were already established.

Below is a map of early Churches (plural as per the bible)
Soo I just thought of something else.....

When Paul was writing his letter to the Romans, who was he writing to? The church in Rome perhaps?

Romans 1:7
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world

Romans 1:11 -12
For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— 12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine.
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
The disciples plant the seeds -- the Holy Spirit does the watering. Man is corrupted so any institution founded and administered by man will have the taint of corruption. We see this fact throughout Christendom at this very moment. Catholic priests found guilty of child molestation. Protestant preachers selling the Word of God so they can buy their jet planes and mansions. Various denominations allowing gay men into the clergy. The institutions of all stripes are as corrupt as can be. But the Holy Spirit still works in the hearts of men who seek His truth and believe His Word and who trust & believe in Jesus Christ. Only Christ is untainted and immune to corruption.
Agreed, Sinners are going to sin. But the Lord prayed that we all may be one. He never said just because you think something different go out and create a new denomination.
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
Soo I just thought of something else.....

When Paul was writing his letter to the Romans, who was he writing to? The church in Rome perhaps?

Romans 1:7
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world

Romans 1:11 -12
For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— 12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine.
Nice catch!

I looked it up and this is what I found. The apostle Paul wrote to the Romans from the Greek city of Corinth in AD 57, just three years after the 16-year-old Nero had ascended to the throne as Emperor of Rome.

Paul had never been to Rome when he wrote the letter to the Romans, though he had clearly expressed his desire to travel there in the near future (Acts 19:21; Romans 1:10–12). The apostle greeted twenty-six different people by name, personalizing a letter from a man who would have been a personal stranger to most of the recipients. No doubt they had heard of Paul and would have been honored by the letter, but Paul always took opportunities to personally connect with his audience so that the message of the gospel might be better received.


IMO Rome would have been the great fish to catch. The known civilized world all came through and out of Rome. All roads lead to Rome etc.

I'm convinced there must have been a very early Church there, no doubt! At the very least during the time of the Apostles.
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
Soo I just thought of something else.....

When Paul was writing his letter to the Romans, who was he writing to? The church in Rome perhaps?

Romans 1:7
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world

Romans 1:11 -12
For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— 12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine.
I think you are correct and in Romans 11 it seems Paul is having to correct them with their attitude toward the Jews. Peter must not have been there at that time else Paul would have addressed him. I don't think it can be denied that Peter visited and died in Rome but it can be denied that he was the pope there.

https://hope-of-israel.org/petrome.htm
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:34 PM
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I think you are correct and in Romans 11 it seems Paul is having to correct them with their attitude toward the Jews. Peter must not have been there at that time else Paul would have addressed him. I don't think it can be denied that Peter visited and died in Rome but it can be denied that he was the pope there.

https://hope-of-israel.org/petrome.htm
do you believe whatever Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven?
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:52 PM
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do you believe whatever Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven?
Not over the other believers. See Paul rebuking Peter.
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:06 PM
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Not over the other believers. See Paul rebuking Peter.


so what people rebuke the pope even today. The dubia comes to mind in modern times.

Regardless,
It seems to me that whenever someone gets there name changed in Scripture there is a deep significance to it.

abram to abraham
saul to paul

I guess peter got his name changed to pebble and whatever he binds really doesn't do anything does it?

“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, you now have this great power, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven... but in reality this does absolutely nothing"
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
so what people rebuke the pope even today.
<sigh> To the point the Pope reverses his position on a matter of doctrine? You don't see how what Peter "binded" was unbound by Paul?
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:16 PM
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You don't see how what Peter "binded" was unbound by Paul?
Not everything the pope says is "binded"
So Nope, I really don't see it.

Galatians 2:11-16

When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:41 PM
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Not everything the pope says is "binded"
Convenient.

Everything I bind is bounded - except those things that are unbound by other Apostles or subsequent Popes reversing previous bound items. OK.
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:41 PM
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A proof that starts with a false premise is not proof.

In this case it is a sin. REPENT and sin no more.

Man, no man is God. Forgiveness is through Christ not the Pope or a priest. REPENT
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
A proof that starts with a false premise is not proof.

In this case it is a sin. REPENT and sin no more.

Man, no man is God...
what sin did I commit?

Jesus was man and he was God. But he was the only man that was God.
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
It seems to me that whenever someone gets there name changed in Scripture there is a deep significance to it.
Agreed. It's just that we disagree on the significance. Again, the "rock" the church is build on is the Messiah. Peter merely articulated that Jesus is the Messiah.
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:59 PM
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Agreed. It's just that we disagree on the significance. Again, the "rock" the church is build on is the Messiah. Peter merely articulated that Jesus is the Messiah.
Yes, but you are leaving out the fact that Cephas literally translates to Rock. In Aramaic.

Why else would he change his name to rock if he wasn't the rock?
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:59 PM
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what sin did I commit?

Jesus was man and he was God. But he was the only man that was God.
The video is a false witness. It is not for me to judge if the sin is on you or done to you.
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:44 PM
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The video is a false witness. It is not for me to judge if the sin is on you or done to you.

how is it a false witness? it is quotes from Christians in the Catholic Church from 189 - 415AD saying that they acknowledge the primacy of peter and Rome.

who else besides Catholics would say such a thing?

I tell you what I will do though.
I will change the name of the thread and repent of sins That I have unknowingly committed.

I can't change the name of the video as I did not make it.....



I'm not getting rid of the Governator though.....
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:06 AM
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how is it a false witness?
Sadly, this accusation has been thrown around far too loosely lately. I too was accused of it the other day.

1st, not all lying is perjury. In my study, people incorrectly equate the commandment with lying. (A modern term for false witness might be a prohibition against perjury. General lying is not perjury. Lying under oath, swearing to God what you say is true but you know it not to be would be, perhaps only in a trial setting, a false witness). Some may consider this to be a trivial difference but one important to point out at the start for I do not know of Scripture relating accusation of false witness independent of a court proceeding - and only tied to taking the Lord's name in vain. By contrast, there are many Scriptural examples of liars, not only not being accused of false witness, but being honored, one is honored for lying!
Example 1: Rahab, the prostitue, lied to keep Hebrew spies safe. Not only was she not accused of false witness, she was listed among the honored lineage of the King of kings, the Lord Jesus Christ. See Matthew 1:5
Example 2: Abraham twice said his wife was his sister and was never accused of false witness. Rather, he is honored with being the father of 3 great religions + God, Himself, is often called "The God Of Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob." That's quite an honor.
Example 3: Jacob and his mother lied to Abraham to deprive Esau of his blessing but were never accused of bearing false witness. Rather, he is honored to be renamed Israel.
Example 4: "I cannot sell this for less than $5 without taking a loss." Might be challenged with, do you swear in the name of God that you paid no less than $5 for this item? Only then, would an answer be subject to charges of false witness, using the loosest meaning of the term.
2nd, confusing opinion with fact. Sargent Friday used to say, "just the facts, ma'm." Supporting an opinion with arguments one does not agree with is not a lie.

3rd, illogical argument is not (necessarily) a lie. Even using illogical arguments, using irrelevant facts is not a lie, e.g., the Earth is the 3rd rock from the sun, therefore St Peter is the rock of the church.

4th, employing incorrect facts are not a lie, e.g., the Earth is the 4th rock from the sun, therefore St Peter is the rock of the church.

I have every reason to believe Sloth and nearly 2 B Catholics believe the Bible supports St Peter - and all his successors - has having all the papal powers claimed. No way is this (or the video) false witness in any manner, shape or form.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:30 AM
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The ongoing importance of the distinction between lying and false witness is obvious today, FBI didn’t record Clinton interview, did not administer sworn oath.

"Not administrating a sworn oath" was a deliberate path to letting her lie with impunity. In other words, in a case as serious as involving the Secretary of State trading in State secrets, her lies would NOT be deemed false witness by default; they must be a sworn oath to God 1st. Serious business.
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Old 06-16-2019, 05:08 AM
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Catholicism is a spin off of what is now called Christianity in fact the Catholic church coined the words Christian and Christianity as a way to unite all the sects of the Bible under one name to fight against the homosexual rights movement. They also spent a lot of money to get the USA motto changed from E Pluribus Unum to In God We Trust as well as getting the in god we trust phrase added to money. the original pledge, and military oath and oath of public office also did not contain god until they pushed for the changes.

I am not sure what sect of Christianity would be considered the first however I do know that it was a group of Jews who fled Judaism and wrote the Gospel (old testament) that started it all. then like all religions it spawns many sects one of which is what we call Catholicism today. while i do not follow any specific religion i do believe there is a good chance of higher powers out there i have studied them a fair bit. In fact most of the bible was copied from the Jewish Torah with some changes made of course as the religion grew it was changed over time adopting things from other religions as well for example Christmas is taken from the Viking holiday of Yuletide. the history of religions is rather interesting especially with how much they barrow from each other at least the ones geographically close together.

think there are over 40,000 sects of Christianity currently Catholicism is a unique one though and i believe has its own sub sects.
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
... Example 1: Rahab, the prostitue, lied to keep Hebrew spies safe. Not only was she not accused of false witness, she was listed among the honored lineage of the King of kings, the Lord Jesus Christ. See Matthew 1:5
In the text Rahab is described as a single woman, who owned a business and had employees.

There is nothing in the text to imply that Rahab was a prostitute.

The translators working for King James decided to use the word 'harlot' to describe Rahab.

Thus many people jumped on the idea that she was a prostitute.

But there is no evidence for that in the Bible.
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