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Old 06-13-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Wrong.

It's an objective reasonable person standard.
Huh?

What exactly was "wrong".

A healthy larger male will have a harder time justifying spaying some guy in the face with OC because they felt "the least bit threatened" than an average female, both in court, or to a responding officer having to make the call whether the "least bit threatened" was justification, or BS.

If that is "wrong", why don't you illuminate us with some of your experiences that would disagree with my significant experience to the contrary. I'm not talking about what the penal code says, where we're all theoretically equal potential victims, I'm talking real people.... DA's, juries and cops. And the "reasonable person" standard, realizes that some of us are more of a potential victim than others.

Otherwise, maybe stay in your lane and go write up another living trust or something....


.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
Huh?

What exactly was "wrong".

A healthy larger male will have a harder time justifying spaying some guy in the face with OC because they felt "the least bit threatened" than an average female, both in court, or to a responding officer having to make the call whether the "least bit threatened" was justification, or BS.

If that is "wrong", why don't you illuminate us with some of your experiences that would disagree with my significant experience to the contrary. I'm not talking about what the penal code says, where we're all theoretically equal potential victims, I'm talking real people.... DA's, juries and cops. And the "reasonable person" standard, realizes that some of us are more of a potential victim than others.

Otherwise, maybe stay in your lane and go write up another living trust or something....


.
Aww did I hurt your feelings?

Rock specifically stated scenarios where it would be justified and lawful. You chimed in about "unwarranted" spraying. Not even remotely on topic.


You don't even grasp the difference, so an esoteric discussion about self defense is plainly over your head.

I won't be lured into giving legal advice which can be misinterpreted or taken in jurisdictions where I don't practice. So this is NOT legal advice. It's too elaborate, complex, and specific to apply generically.

But your nonsense needs to be pointed out. Self defense is rarely/never a subjective standard. While that might apply in some cases, a person must ALWAYS act reasonably, and use or are limited to a proportional response.

Self defense is fact based and whether a reasonable person under the facts would feel threatened. While yes, a professional fighter might have different thresholds of "reasonable" threat than a little old debilitated lady, they both must act reasonable based on the facts.

"Healthy male" is irrelevant. If there's a threat, such as a aggressive dog or belligerent attacking drunk man, that would be justification for use of a non-lethal OC spray. Cops literally lawfully deploy this stuff every day for these precise reasons. Rock6 is correct, and you are incorrect. There's not a debate. If he feels threatened by a belligerent drunk attacking him or a aggressive dog and defends himself with pepper spray, there's not likely a DA in the nation that would charge him with a single offense.

Not sure how you came up with "unwarranted" when he plainly gave examples where he could reasonably feel threatened and deploy OC. Again, police routinely use OC for these precise reasons.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Aww did I hurt your feelings?

Rock specifically stated scenarios where it would be justified and lawful. You chimed in about "unwarranted" spraying. Not even remotely on topic.


You don't even grasp the difference, so an esoteric discussion about self defense is plainly over your head.

I won't be lured into giving legal advice which can be misinterpreted or taken in jurisdictions where I don't practice. So this is NOT legal advice. It's too elaborate, complex, and specific to apply generically.

But your nonsense needs to be pointed out. Self defense is rarely/never a subjective standard. While that might apply in some cases, a person must ALWAYS act reasonably, and use or are limited to a proportional response.

Self defense is fact based and whether a reasonable person under the facts would feel threatened. While yes, a professional fighter might have different thresholds of "reasonable" threat than a little old debilitated lady, they both must act reasonable based on the facts.

"Healthy male" is irrelevant. If there's a threat, such as a aggressive dog or belligerent attacking drunk man, that would be justification for use of a non-lethal OC spray. Cops literally lawfully deploy this stuff every day for these precise reasons. Rock6 is correct, and you are incorrect. There's not a debate. If he feels threatened by a belligerent drunk attacking him or a aggressive dog and defends himself with pepper spray, there's not likely a DA in the nation that would charge him with a single offense.

Not sure how you came up with "unwarranted" when he plainly gave examples where he could reasonably feel threatened and deploy OC. Again, police routinely use OC for these precise reasons.
Man, your business must suck if you need to invent dishonest nonsense arguments on the internet for practice....

I responded to what he originally said. Maybe you should have read it.

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Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Many threats are pretty feckless and if I feed the least bit threatened, a spray to the face would only result in a very low-level misdemeanor even if the "threat" tired to press charges. I've talked to numerous LE where I live and pepper spray is really nothing they care about from a charge perspective.ROCK6
Baloney. I'll stick by that. And I'm 100 percent certain I have more experience with the subject than you do, which would appear to be zero.

And a 5-2 female spraying a subject in the face on a lonely trailhead, is going to have an easier time justifying it than a 6-2 male, if the subject in question makes a counter claim of being attacked for no reason.

That's just a fact. If you disagree, you've spent less time in a courtroom than I even thought.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post
Man, your business must suck if you need to invent dishonest nonsense arguments on the internet for practice....

I responded to what he originally said. Maybe you should have read it.



Baloney. I'll stick by that. And I'm 100 percent certain I have more experience with the subject than you do, which would appear to be zero.

And a 5-2 female spraying a subject in the face on a lonely trailhead, is going to have an easier time justifying it than a 6-2 male, if the subject in question makes a counter claim of being attacked for no reason.

That's just a fact. If you disagree, you've spent less time in a courtroom than I even thought.


Please pull up your state laws on assault and self defense. Or a Judge's instruction to a jury. Post them here. And because I'm so slow and inexperienced, please underline the parts in the law that reference gender, age, and size of the person accused or seeking self defense instruction.

And I'll assume now that when you fail to do so, you're acquiescing you're clueless and wrong.

[PS I've been the lead prosecutor and also lead defense attorney on numerous assaults, aggravated assaults, battery, and armed robbery; some of which had self-defense claim elements.]

This should be entertaining.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Please pull up your state laws on assault and self defense. Or a Judge's instruction to a jury. Post them here. And because I'm so slow and inexperienced, please underline the parts in the law that reference gender, age, and size of the person accused or seeking self defense instruction.

And I'll assume now that when you fail to do so, you're acquiescing you're clueless and wrong.

[PS I've been the lead prosecutor and also lead defense attorney on numerous assaults, aggravated assaults, battery, and armed robbery; some of which had self-defense claim elements.]

This should be entertaining.


Night, Scooter.....
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:45 PM
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Night, Scooter.....
Yup, that's what I thought.
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:36 AM
Belnik Belnik is offline
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I have had an on again-off again relationship with running /jogging/walking with pack for fitness over many years...I just started back after a knee issue and am only running on a treadmill at the moment, so I am not carrying.

However when I was last running on trails I did a few things.
When running out of the house, I didn't really have a way to carry a gun...instead I clipped a mora companion knife to my sweat pants backwards, so it was inside and it was unnoticeable...practically. Its so light it was a non issue, my ccw would have pulled my pants down while running. (it was also winter and I was in sweats top and bottom) Some sort of low profile shoulder holster would have worked I'm sure but I don't have one. One of those chest packs naturally would have worked, but IMO it screams "Gun" and it wasn't something I wanted for short runs.

When it warmed up and I was running in shorts, I had the same problem if I was wearing light athletic shorts...they just can't support my smallest CCW pistol. So I found some "sporty hiking like shorts" I think they were made by wrangler? They are legit shorts with pockets and belt loops, yet are light weight material, stretchy, etc...and also look normal for exercise (IMO)

With these I wear a belt, and my CCW gun rides in its small kydex holster just like any other time I'm in shorts out and about...maybe I tighten the belt a notch more than usual. Point is for me its about the clothes. The right clothes let me carry while running the wrong ones do not.

I'd look for clothes you might wear hiking, that are athletic like and just go with your normal ccw set up to start...at least it may be an option. Good luck and let us know what you find.
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyinID View Post

A healthy larger male will have a harder time justifying spaying some guy in the face with OC because they felt "the least bit threatened" than an average female, both in court, or to a responding officer having to make the call whether the "least bit threatened" was justification, or BS.
Meh, you're only wrong because you're making assumptions not knowing me and with hypotheticals. I'm healthy but not necessarily a "big" male

I have made my own assessments, I know our local laws, familiar with a few cases, know the judges, several LEOs, and trust my own judgement to make a self-defensive decision based on my training and experience. Far more goes into my decision making process than simply spraying somebody with pepper spray if they flip me the bird.

I appreciate the perspective, but all defensive actions are dynamic and come with risks, I just have to make my own risk assessments fully knowing the potential consequences, which I'm prepared to do.

ROCK6
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:43 AM
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After posting I had the desire to do a little look-see on the web and found something interesting...I will probably be making a purchase. Check out "pistol wear .com"

http://www.pistolwear.com/holsters/

This is the first interesting thing I've found for what I'd like...might be a lot more out there?
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Old 07-07-2019, 02:10 AM
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I run through an area with a high population of black bears, so I carry my Glock 20. I have also been looking for something that will stop the bouncing pistol syndrome, while at the same time allow instant access. The fun part about black bears is they are actually likely to see humans as a food source. Couple that with sows being insanely protective of their cubs, I would rather not be bear chow if I can help it. lol Yeah, the first line of defense is me paying attention to my surroundings so I can just avoid them or back out safely. That's no guarantee with bears though.

Edit to add: 5 miles on a sand road is great exercise for my 50++ year old a... self
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Old 07-07-2019, 02:26 AM
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I don't run anywhere near wildlife that big, I run on roads of cities or towns almost 98% of the time.

I don't carry **** when I run that isn't my ipod, or a weighted vest.

If I die when on a good run / jog then it was my time to go. As much as I love readiness and the freedom to carry, I can care less about anything but my breathing, fitness, and natural high I get when working out, when working out. So again, if it's my time to go, so be it, may it be doing something I love as a fitness freak, but I'll never bring a knife or gun with me on a run/workout. Just flat out don't care to.



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Old 07-07-2019, 02:27 AM
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I don't run anywhere near wildlife that big, I run on roads in cities or towns almost 98% of the time.

I don't carry **** when I run that isn't my ipod, or a weighted vest.

If I die when on a good run / jog then it was my time to go. As much as I love readiness and the freedom to carry, I can care less about anything but my breathing, fitness, and natural high I get when working out, when working out. So again, if it's my time to go, so be it, may it be doing something I love as a fitness freak, but I'll never being a knife or gun with me on a run/workout. Just flat out don't care to.



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Old 07-07-2019, 08:41 AM
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Baloney. I'll stick by that. And I'm 100 percent certain I have more experience with the subject than you do, which would appear to be zero.
Fine, stick to the courtroom, while I trek the trail and run the roads....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
I don't run anywhere near wildlife that big, I run on roads of cities or towns almost 98% of the time.

I don't carry **** when I run that isn't my ipod, or a weighted vest.

If I die when on a good run / jog then it was my time to go. As much as I love readiness and the freedom to carry, I can care less about anything but my breathing, fitness, and natural high I get when working out, when working out. So again, if it's my time to go, so be it, may it be doing something I love as a fitness freak, but I'll never bring a knife or gun with me on a run/workout. Just flat out don't care to.
It's very much a personal choice dictated by location. Our biggest threats are stray/aggressive dogs. We do have some meth heads in some of the more rural areas, but they're a small percentage of issues in our area. I don't mind the J-Frame in my runner's Kit Bag, but pepper spray is still the best option for potential threats in our area...most dogs just bark, but I would hate to get chomped on needing a rabies shot and stitches if possible.









My Runner's Kit Bag is just a method and I can understand some wanting to minimize anything worn. I'm a minimalist runner and this Kit Bag works very well for me. Now, I'm not running long distance; usually just 3-5 miles depending on the day.

ROCK6
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:17 PM
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I workout at Anytime Fitness 5 times a week. This place is locked unless you have a key fob. So, I feel safe with that and there are cameras everywhere for evidence collection. I still have my EDC in my gym bag for when I'm walking in or walking back out to the truck.

I played soccer my entire life up to about 4 years ago and only like running if it is chasing a ball, so I never run outside anymore. My ankles hate me now so I ride a mountain bike, which I Carry in my handle bar pouch. At the gym I ride the stationary bike in a nice climate controlled environment.

For you folks that jog/run outside, it's got to be tough. The only thing I think I would wear (if I did run outside at all,,,) would be a very small light weight handgun in like a fanny pack. Quick access.

I like the look of the chest pack photos on here, it would not bounce around nor make you sweaty, but you'd have to get used to a chest unzipping and then draw.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:20 PM
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I workout at Anytime Fitness 5 times a week. This place is locked unless you have a key fob. So, I feel safe with that and there are cameras everywhere for evidence collection. I still have my EDC in my gym bag for when I'm walking in or walking back out to the truck.

I played soccer my entire life up to about 4 years ago and only like running if it is chasing a ball, so I never run outside anymore. My ankles hate me now so I ride a mountain bike, which I Carry in my handle bar pouch. At the gym I ride the stationary bike in a nice climate controlled environment.

For you folks that jog/run outside, it's got to be tough. The only thing I think I would wear (if I did run outside at all,,,) would be a very small light weight handgun in like a fanny pack. Quick access.

I like the look of the chest pack photos on here, it would not bounce around nor make you sweaty, but you'd have to get used to a chest unzipping and then draw.
Or, nothing at all.

Not all of us feel unsafe the second we aren't near a firearm.

Haven't carried in over 5 years, running included. Don't need to be judged for it. Don't deserve to be looked at as "less 2A" because I feel confident going for a 10 miler with nothing but my iPod.



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Old 07-10-2019, 11:03 PM
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5-11 does a tactical load bearing vest for all you top knot wearing cross fitters.

Glue a gun to it.

https://youtu.be/kO_65oT8vkw
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:49 AM
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Or, nothing at all.

Not all of us feel unsafe the second we aren't near a firearm.

Haven't carried in over 5 years, running included. Don't need to be judged for it. Don't deserve to be looked at as "less 2A" because I feel confident going for a 10 miler with nothing but my iPod.
And there shouldn't be any criticism. I only carry when I run because I want to, not that it makes me feel any safer. I backpack with a Kit Bag, so running with one continues to reinforce and help me to get comfortable with it. It's not a necessity and shouldn't be viewed that way (unless you're jogging through the Serengeti naked with BBQ sauce smeared all over you); just a preference for some...very much a small population.

Locations and individuals do play a role. My wife was running one afternoon and had some guy stalk her in his vehicle. Nothing came of it, but she carries her .380 since some of the roads are rural and remote. Guys look at it differently...

ROCK6
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:30 AM
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THERE is nothing wrong with beating a dead horse.
It just depends on the expectations from the amount of exertion you use.

IF you are beating the horse for the exercise you get, there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't hurt the horse and is great cardio and upper body work out.

If you are beating the dead horse for a conversation piece, so people will gather around and comment and question about the activity and interact with each other then you are engaged in a social event that will bring more connection to the friends and neighbors around a common interest and event.

IF you are beating the horse to make it pull the wagon though... get help.

See, it is all about perspective.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:42 AM
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And there shouldn't be any criticism. I only carry when I run because I want to, not that it makes me feel any safer. I backpack with a Kit Bag, so running with one continues to reinforce and help me to get comfortable with it. It's not a necessity and shouldn't be viewed that way (unless you're jogging through the Serengeti naked with BBQ sauce smeared all over you); just a preference for some...very much a small population.

Locations and individuals do play a role. My wife was running one afternoon and had some guy stalk her in his vehicle. Nothing came of it, but she carries her .380 since some of the roads are rural and remote. Guys look at it differently...

ROCK6
Which is fine, and location certainly plays a role.

Personally I live in a low crime suburban area (marin county California) and never felt unsafe nor unprepared walking around, or working out unarmed.

Heck my mentality is this, if someone actually tried to mess with me in the middle of one of my distance runs, you're about to help me finish my workout, whether you like it or not LOL. I'm in clothes I don't mind sweating in, running shoes, a weighted vest, and I'm jacked on adrenaline and my music - and I've been boxing for 12 years - you couldn't pick a worse time, I don't even need to warm up!

And it's never come close to happening. The day it does, again, if you want to drag a fit guy versed in combat sports, and alpha Male, jacked up on adrenaline, in "go" mode, into a fight, good luck chuck, couldn't pick a worse time, if you plan on winning or getting the better of me. It would be hilarious because I'd be so fired up it might actually confuse the other person.

Anyone who says to themselves "let me go pick on an athlete with a high heart rate, euphoric, and already with a lather going" is probably actually retarded. And it would have to be simply to start a fight, I don't run with my keys OR my wallet or ID or anything valuable sans my ipod, they sure wont be robbing me of anything, other than, a workout, and if they rob me of that, it was because they disappointed me because they lasted 30 seconds or less, which to a boxer is shrug-off laughable. I'd literally just keep going on my run while they lay there stunned.





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Old 07-11-2019, 01:44 PM
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That's great if it works for you, but a lot of people run to get in shape, not to stay in shape. A tired overweight or elderly person at the end of long run is an inviting target...especially if they're female.

And I know you didn't mean it this way, but the idea that it's unnecessary for other people to carry on runs because you don't feel unsafe on your runs is the same logic liberals use to restrict gun ownership.
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