AR15 Pistol Questions - Page 2 - Survivalist Forum
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Firearms General Discussion Rifles, pistols, shotguns, scopes, grips and everything in between.

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-06-2019, 09:35 AM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default



Advertise Here

FFL receives 20 virgin lowers.
They get logged in as such with no caliber listed.
Stupid agent or not, recording them as pistols on the 4473 is asking for further discussion and possible extra scrutiny by the stupid agent.

And iirc, someone under 21 cannot buy a stripped virgin lower and fudging your books to allow it isn’t the best business practice.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 09:38 AM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
He rolled the dice and came up with a stupid ATF agent. what I outlined is "correct", legal etc. (If he's concerned in the "notes" section of his bound book he can write really small "buyer <21", "sold stripped" or some such. That's what I did by direction when I worked for the SOT.

...at least up until the next time the ATF illegally acts as the legislative branch and changes it's mind again.
Since you replied inside a quote I canít reply, see my post above.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 09:52 AM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 28,041
Thanks: 23,427
Thanked 56,313 Times in 18,387 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Bull crap...

Iíve busted on you for nonsensical replies and gibberish.
It a common theme with you.
AFAIK this is the first time my fat fingers added a smiley to a post...
This denial is typical of your responses on the rare occasions I point out your hipocracy.

I know you won't listen, just be aware that I rarely take advantage of opportunities to do so. (No matter your denials.)

Don't bother responding, I know it'll just be more of the same.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-06-2019, 09:59 AM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 28,041
Thanks: 23,427
Thanked 56,313 Times in 18,387 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
FFL receives 20 virgin lowers.
They get logged in as such with no caliber listed.
They should be logged in according to receiver markings. Whether .223, "multi" or what. I have written "multi" into the bound book many times.


Stupid agent or not, recording them as pistols on the 4473 is asking for further discussion and possible extra scrutiny by the stupid agent.
inspections result in discussion. I've been through several ATF inspections, it's really not a big deal. It's like a weapon without a SN or a pre 1899 firearm that one of your employees mistaking entered. You explain it and move on.
But as I said: I would not log them out as pistols for myself.

Eta: I've said SOT, was also a manufacturer. We took in many AK, AR, FAL and other stripped lowers and logged them out as rifles or pistols (and occasionally transferred them out of that book and into the book as a SBR, SBS, or MG.)


And iirc, someone under 21 cannot buy a stripped virgin lower and fudging your books to allow it isn’t the best business practice.
You do not.
They can..... (Legally) It just needs to be written out as a rifle.
Legally it's the EXACT SAME THING as a complete AR.
I know this because we did it (as I shared, when I moved states) by direction. No fudging, no "rule bending" no issues. Literally following the law precisely.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 10:33 AM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
You do not.
They can..... (Legally) It just needs to be written out as a rifle.
Legally it's the EXACT SAME THING as a complete AR.
I know this because we did it (as I shared, when I moved states) by direction. No fudging, no "rule bending" no issues. Literally following the law precisely.
Selling someone under 21 a lower by calling it a rifle is not literally following the law.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 11:55 AM
harbinger1972's Avatar
harbinger1972 harbinger1972 is offline
MAGA
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,867
Thanks: 3,750
Thanked 14,907 Times in 4,334 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
I didnít intentionally put that smiley there smartass.
If you are right handed and post using a phone turned sideways you can see that my thumb must have touched that smiley as I initially scrolled down to begin my reply under your comment...
I can accept that.

Smiley is intended.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to harbinger1972 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-06-2019, 12:02 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 28,041
Thanks: 23,427
Thanked 56,313 Times in 18,387 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Selling someone under 21 a lower by calling it a rifle is not literally following the law.
Per ATF:

Selling an AR lower as a registered rifle IS following the law.


You can disagree as much as you want. I DGAF. Your not arguing with me but with the ATF regional office. BOTH when I lived in Misissippi, and Louisiana. Once when I was working for the FFL, and once when I was receiving from the FFL.

Eta: La was 2012, MS was some years prior
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Nomad, 2nd For This Useful Post:
Old 06-06-2019, 12:20 PM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Per ATF:

Selling an AR lower as a registered rifle IS following the law.


You can disagree as much as you want. I DGAF. Your not arguing with me but with the ATF regional office. BOTH when I lived in Misissippi, and Louisiana. Once when I was working for the FFL, and once when I was receiving from the FFL.

Eta: La was 2012, MS was some years prior
So youíre basing your opinion on stuff you did in 2012?
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 12:25 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 28,041
Thanks: 23,427
Thanked 56,313 Times in 18,387 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
So youíre basing your opinion on stuff you did in 2012?
No.


I'm basing my statement on direct instruction of the ATF regional office when They were called and asked how to handle it. And it passing ATF inspections following. (Some I was there for.) . Also the absence of anything since (feel free to show anything you can) changing this direct ATF instruction.

I'll wait.


Eta: the TC court case is from WHEN again?
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Nomad, 2nd For This Useful Post:
Old 06-06-2019, 12:33 PM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default

Would you also call a lower a rifle so you could sell it to someone out of state?

Dude, you are so wrong on this all...
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 12:37 PM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
No.


I'm basing my statement on direct instruction of the ATF regional office when They were called and asked how to handle it. And it passing ATF inspections following. (Some I was there for.) . Also the absence of anything since (feel free to show anything you can) changing this direct ATF instruction.

I'll wait.


Eta: the TC court case is from WHEN again?
I donít know why youíre bringing up the TC case, I never once used that as support of my opinion however I did post and link to the current ATF opinion on this updated in 2016.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 12:42 PM
harbinger1972's Avatar
harbinger1972 harbinger1972 is offline
MAGA
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,867
Thanks: 3,750
Thanked 14,907 Times in 4,334 Posts
Default

I mentioned the TC kit.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to harbinger1972 For This Useful Post:
Old 06-06-2019, 12:46 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 28,041
Thanks: 23,427
Thanked 56,313 Times in 18,387 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Would you also call a lower a rifle so you could sell it to someone out of state?

Dude, you are so wrong on this all...
I did not.

However, if you'd pay attention you'd know as I have already related when I had stripped lowers at a FFL (Buddy of mine) in Misissippi and I had moved to La....

The ATF told the FFL to do exactly that.

Again:
You are telling the ATF that they are wrong.
Not me.

Feel free to keep making a fool of yourself if you wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
I don’t know why you’re bringing up the TC case, I never once used that as support of my opinion however I did post and link to the current ATF opinion on this updated in 2016.
When you found yourself without a leg to stand on you tried to attacked me based on the date.

I pointed out that far older rullings (recently discussed) are still valid and you had made a 'nonpoint'

again: feel free to cite a contrary rulling. It might be out there. (If so I am unaware of it.) But baring them.... What I have outlined is PRECISELY by ATF instruction. No matter how many times you deny it.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 01:45 PM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
I did not.

However, if you'd pay attention you'd know as I have already related when I had stripped lowers at a FFL (Buddy of mine) in Misissippi and I had moved to La....

The ATF told the FFL to do exactly that.

Again:
You are telling the ATF that they are wrong.
Not me.

Feel free to keep making a fool of yourself if you wish.



When you found yourself without a leg to stand on you tried to attacked me based on the date.

I pointed out that far older rullings (recently discussed) are still valid and you had made a 'nonpoint'

again: feel free to cite a contrary rulling. It might be out there. (If so I am unaware of it.) But baring them.... What I have outlined is PRECISELY by ATF instruction. No matter how many times you deny it.
I thought you sold lowers to those under 21 under the direction of an SOT but now itís some transfer to yourself?

This is where my comments about your posts come from, youíre all over the place...


Iím off to sell some teenagers some beer, Iím just going to call it Pepsi and itíll be all legal...
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 02:00 PM
Nomad, 2nd Nomad, 2nd is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Gulf coast and/or Nomadically
Posts: 28,041
Thanks: 23,427
Thanked 56,313 Times in 18,387 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
I thought you sold lowers to those under 21 under the direction of an SOT but now it’s some transfer to yourself?
go read (I'd say reread, but it's obvious you didn 't) starting at post 19.
I clearly relate 2 difference incidences where this (this being AR specific direction as how handle the sale of lowers) has come into play.





This is where my comments about your posts come from, you’re all over the place...
Exactly my point.
I relate things in a clear manner, and you either lack comprehension or fail to pay attention
Then you try to make your failings my fault.





I’m off to sell some teenagers some beer, I’m just going to call it Pepsi and it’ll be all legal...
If the ATF says so.

Example:
In the past at one point 18 year olds could buy beer (legally) In some states.
In a DIFFERENT INSTANCE military members under 21 could drink beer.

What your absurdly doing is try it to pretend that those (legal) instances are somehow breaking the law.

AT least you amuse me.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Nomad, 2nd For This Useful Post:
Old 06-06-2019, 04:00 PM
Israel Putnam's Avatar
Israel Putnam Israel Putnam is offline
Bunker Hill Patriot
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: W. Central PA
Posts: 6,688
Thanks: 3,608
Thanked 10,612 Times in 4,297 Posts
Default

I don't care if some SOT somewhere told some guy working for him to mark down lowers as rifles so they could be sold to people under 21 because some desk jockey at some ATF office supposedly claimed it was legal.

It's not.

And I'm not "arguing" with the ATF because nobody here has provided a letter from the ATF stating this is legal.
I'm arguing with someone claiming something that is blatantly illegal is actually legal.

A lower CANNOT be sold to someone under 21 by an FFL, no matter what some guy told some other guy.
Quick reply to this message
Old 06-06-2019, 05:51 PM
JDH's Avatar
JDH JDH is offline
Si vis pacem, para bellum
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 6,289
Thanks: 633
Thanked 9,639 Times in 3,717 Posts
Default

The shop I worked listed unbuilt lowers as other and required the buyer to be 21. When the agent came to do the audit he stated that was the proper way.

"Stripped" lowers that had been built once then had the parts removed were another can of worms.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to JDH For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks



Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net