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Old 05-31-2019, 04:14 PM
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PeterEnergy PeterEnergy is offline
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
When someone comes around here deliberately quoting a poorly written dynamic translation of scripture to support concepts that the Christian Church everywhere and always rejected, well, I see the self justification of the Pharisee in that not the forgiveness granted to the Publican.
You 'see' that huh? Others are allowed to 'see' differently. The world would be a better place if that were respected.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:15 PM
JenFred JenFred is online now
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And when the woman at the well spoke with Jesus, and spoke her faulty doctrine...did He make fun of her that she believed wrong? You think she would've accepted Him if He had? Or did He see that she needed time, truth, honesty, grace, love.... She desired more....and *GOD* DREW IT OUT OF HER. God never beats a person into correct theology, and neither should His people.

I mean, when you walked in a different theology than what you believe now....did someone yell at you till your beliefs changed? "Yes, you yelled the loudest, so I will belong to your church."? Or were you guided? Step by step? Did you ever believe strongly in a part of your faith, and as you changed, you realized a part of that was wrong? Did you ever wrestle with having believed a different way....and now this new way was presented? How easy or messy was your transition?
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:28 PM
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PeterEnergy is still where the woman at the well was in John 4:16-19. He has yet to get to where she was in John 4:29. My transition was fairly easy. My ideas regarding Mary, who in my previous Baptist tradition was essentially just another believer and for the most part ignored, took the most sorting through. There are certain baptist concepts regarding eschatology, baptism, drinking alcohol that I either never accepted or accepted loosely.

However, I was never one to grab the most convenient translation of the Bible and try and prop up personal opinions when confronted by historical realities.

If PeterEnergy wants to believe that Jesus was merely a man, that’s his prerogative. Many people do just that. However, that doesn’t make you any more a Christian than a Muslim or Hindu is.

This isn’t about his personal beliefs, but rather his efforts to blur and move 2000 year old goalposts based on his personal preferences.

If you don’t have an accurate picture of where you are you will have no clue how to go where you need to.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
This isn’t about his personal beliefs, but rather his efforts to blur and move 2000 year old goalposts based on his personal preferences.
That is where we disagree.

You can keep the 2,000 year old goalposts all you want in the Learn about Orthodoxy thread. Not all threads are to advance or hold your dogma.

Rather than agree to disagree, the orthodrones just troll every religious thread, violating all Biblical principles in the process. For instance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
PeterEnergy is still where the woman at the well was in John 4:16-19.
That statement is called judgment.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
That is where we disagree.

You can keep the 2,000 year old goalposts all you want in the Learn about Orthodoxy thread. Not all threads are to advance or hold your dogma.

Rather than agree to disagree, the orthodrones just troll every religious thread, violating all Biblical principles in the process. For instance:

That statement is called judgment.
That is by your own admission.

Signed,

“An Orthodrone”
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:10 PM
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I would like to know what your thoughts are on all early Christians? Early Christians only saw Jesus as a prophet and it wasn't until over 300 years later that he was declared divine by Constantine (or with his encouragement), as well as acknowledging the Trinity.
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:17 PM
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I would like to know what your thoughts are on all early Christians? Early Christians only saw Jesus as a prophet and it wasn't until over 300 years later that he was declared divine by Constantine (or with his encouragement), as well as acknowledging the Trinity.
Before we get into that, a more important question. Do you accept the entirety of the four gospels as an accurate record of Jesus’ life and statements while on earth?
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
PeterEnergy is still where the woman at the well was in John 4:16-19. He has yet to get to where she was in John 4:29.
And can how we treat a person help or hinder them moving from john 4:16-19 to john 4:29?
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by America's Patriot View Post
I would like to know what your thoughts are on all early Christians? Early Christians only saw Jesus as a prophet and it wasn't until over 300 years later that he was declared divine by Constantine (or with his encouragement), as well as acknowledging the Trinity.
Not even close. Constantine “legitimized” (de-illegalized? ) Christianity in the Roman world.
The Apostles knew precisely who and what Jesus was and worshipped and taught accordingly.
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JenFred View Post
And can how we treat a person help or hinder them moving from john 4:16-19 to john 4:29?
What is said in Titus 3:10-11, 2nd John 9-11, 1st Tim 1:20 and 6:3-5?

I know there is a prevailing idea in modern evangelicalism that if we just love people enough, if we are nicer than God, we can get them in to the Kingdom. How does this square with Romans 1 or the scriptures above particularly Saint Paul writing “1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.”

...and make no mistake, calling Jesus merely human is one of the most fundamental of blasphemies against His name and nature.
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
...and make no mistake, calling Jesus merely human is one of the most fundamental of blasphemies against His name and nature.
Yet, those who say that have EVERY RIGHT to their opinion, right?
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:32 PM
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Of course, it’s a free country. Anyone who wishes to share the Christology of Hindus, Moslems, Mormons, etc is free to do so. Then again, it might give someone pause why Satan dug so many intellectual tiger pits around the scriptural truths contained within the Nicene Creed.
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Of course, it’s a free country.
I guess you are too dense to recognize the significance of (repeatedly) putting yourself in a position to judge others at every turn.


Wisdom’s instruction is to fear the Lord, and humility comes before honor.
Proverbs 15:33 (NIV)
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
So you do not believe in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit. So who is this God of yours that you believe in?
Is he Jewish?
__________________

Time to repeal the 17th.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:50 PM
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I'm thoroughly amazed (and saddened) by the amount of chaff being thrown about here.

No one, but no one, is denying anyone the ability nor right to believe anything they want. From Elizabeth Warren, to Bruce Jenner, to Rachel Dolezal, to Peter Energy. Anorexics are thoroughly convinced they are fat. Gender dysphorics are convinced they are trapped in the wrong body. Hindus are convinced there are elephant gods. Aetheists are convinced there is no God. We all have some cross to bear.

PE has convinced himself that the Trinity is not true, regardless of the 2,000 years of debates and ultimate decisions by VERY learned full time theologians. He's in good company...LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses are two of the more "mainstream religions" which agree. So repeatedly bashing him for (I assume) an honest understanding of what he considers Christianity is non productive for his soul. And I hope that EVERY TRUE CHRISTIAN HERE has no greater desire than helping EVERYONE to Heaven. If PE wishes to call himself Christian without accepting Jesus the Christ as divine, all the vitriol in the world will HAVE NO EFFECT ON HIS SALVATION. THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF EVERY CHRISTIAN!
He is aware of Scripture. He is fully aware of the mainstream understanding of Jesus and his Divinity. That he chooses to ignore and/or obfuscate the Scriptures that clearly prove the Divinity of Christ is on him.
If there was ever a better reason to shake the dust, I don't know it. Jesus never argued. Never engaged in debate. He told the truth, and if it was not accepted, He just kept quiet. If some here have the desire for self flagellation by continually beating this dead horse, that's more to your detriment than Peter's. And Peter apparently gets stimulation by picking out single chunks of Scripture and treating them as stand alone Biblical Truisms.

So to PE and every other person on these Boards, you have the perfect right and ability to call yourselves anything you want, and believe anything you want. We have the perfect right to disagree with you, with the final disposition decided upon our death. So if there are honest debates regarding Scripture interpretations, admit it and work with it with an honest third party mentality. And perhaps agree to disagree. But belaboring disagreements on what constitutes a "true" Christian does absolutely nothing except throws more smoke up and feeds personal needs for superiority.

Completely antithetical to the real message of Christ.
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Old 06-01-2019, 01:21 AM
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"Reader's Digest" of Christianity

In Jesus' words (paraphrased):
1. Greatest commandment: Love God, love your neighbor as yourself [Matt 22:37] (On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets...)
2. Jesus proclaimed he was one with the Father [John 10:30]
3. He said we, too, could become one with the Father [John 17:21]
4. He said we, too, could do greater things than Himself. [John 14:12]
5. Forgive trespasses. [Matt 6:14, 15; 18:21; 18:35; Mark 11:25; Luke 17:4]

So, if I understand Jesus correctly, he's telling me to unequivocally love God, love my neighbor as myself, forgive all trespasses, so that we can become one with Him and God, and in his manner (Aramaic "in his name"), do even greater things, here on Earth.

John 10:30 (KJV) I and my Father are one.
John 17:21 (KJV) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

My hand is "one with me" but it is not all of me. It does what I will.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are "one with God" doing God's will.

Neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit is all of God. Furthermore, we can all become "one with God," which is far more than a Trinity.

Whether or not that is correct should not detract from the Greatest Commandment - Love God and your neighbor.... which is redundant if your neighbor is "one with God."

I hope that helps.
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Old 06-01-2019, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabinet Maker View Post
I'm thoroughly amazed (and saddened) by the amount of chaff being thrown about here.

No one, but no one, is denying anyone the ability nor right to believe anything they want. From Elizabeth Warren, to Bruce Jenner, to Rachel Dolezal, to Peter Energy ... If PE wishes to call himself Christian without accepting Jesus the Christ as divine, all the vitriol in the world will HAVE NO EFFECT ON HIS SALVATION. THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF EVERY CHRISTIAN!
He is aware of Scripture ...
If there was ever a better reason to shake the dust, I don't know it. Jesus never argued. Never engaged in debate. He told the truth, and if it was not accepted, He just kept quiet. ... So if there are honest debates regarding Scripture interpretations, admit it and work with it with an honest third party mentality. And perhaps agree to disagree. But belaboring disagreements on what constitutes a "true" Christian does absolutely nothing except throws more smoke up and feeds personal needs for superiority.

Completely antithetical to the real message of Christ.
Very well said! These are points I made, thought I made or tried to make many times.

One caveat. Precisely because of the proselytizers "personal needs for superiority" I have also repeatedly said I will NEVER call myself a Christian. (This makes the constant bashing all the more perplexing).

It is clear to me and, I think many others, that those proselytizers "personal needs for superiority" have proven the practice of their beliefs are, as you wrote, completely antithetical to the real message of Christ. That is sad.

One other point, if I may, in the vitriol, many Strawman's have been asserted as to what I do believe. Essentially, they are so offended that I do not violate the 1C, do not accept trinitarianism or the divinity of Christ that they consider it some sort of personal insult?

Mostly, I've ignored such Strawman's. However, I do want to state for the record that I find NO SCRIPTURE that requires violating the 1C, in believing Jesus is God in order to obtain salvation. So, what do I believe about Jesus? I've expressed it several times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
It's sad that this thread started off talking about unifying Christian theology then immediately moved to trinitarianism. I accept Jesus is the gate keeper, the Great Redeemer, the Liberating King, the Savior of the world, the Son of God, and our job is to love God and others with our all.
If this is unacceptable, I pray to God the ortho-drones would just dust off their feet, agree to disagree and stop trolling every religious thread.
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Old 06-01-2019, 03:37 AM
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Jetgraphics, a direct question...are you LDS or UPC?

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with personal superiority but rather to clearly dilenate what is and what is not. As far as scripture that says to love your neighnor as yourself, Jesus said that unless you believed he is the I AM that you would die in your sins. That doesn't sound particarly loving to me. There are many things in the faith that I don't discuss. They are either matters for which we don't have enough information to know for sure or there is enough gray that God will tell us when it is time. The divinity of Christ is not such a matter.
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Old 06-01-2019, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Jetgraphics, a direct question...are you LDS?
Hoping to Poison The Well, eh?
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
The divinity of Christ is not such a matter.
There's that lack of humility again.

Not quoting any Scripture, you assert what is the case for you. For others, it is such a matter.
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