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Old 05-25-2019, 11:13 AM
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Putting the atonement of Jesus aside, today so many today treat sin in a shockingly light hearted way. There is little more than a temporary emotional display before returning to sin with impunity.

This came to my mind when reading 2 Samuel 12:1-10, the story of the poor manís pet stolen by the rich man for food.

If a childís pet was sacrificed to atone for the childís disrespectful way of reacting to to her/his parents, I think that would be a much bigger wake up call of the seriousness of their transgressions. Hell, in todayís culture, an electronic sacrifice might be even more impactful for the emerging miscreants. Every sin requires the sacrificial burning of their iPhone or video games.

I suppose parents could still sacrifice the electronics with the atoning of Jesus, in theory. Itís just that in practice, there seems to be little immediate impact for youngsters sinning. Thoughts?
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Old 05-25-2019, 12:00 PM
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Young people and children need to be saved the same way adults do. Without the quickening of the Holy Spirit a persons sin nature is still in charge and he/she can't help but sin. The sin may not be overt and need discipline/punishment from parents, but can be covert in inward attitude and disobedience.

Like the young boy whose mother told him to sit down several times and he refused to do so each time. Finally the mother made him sit down. He immediately said "I may be sitting on the outside, but I'm standing on the inside."

People need the regenerating power of salvation to then have the Holy Spirit available in them to defeat the sin nature and be able to live an obedient life for Christ.

The carrot and the stick philosophy works OK many times but the real need is to have the child and young person desire to do right to please Christ. The only way to get that is to be born again, saved.
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Old 05-25-2019, 01:49 PM
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Killing the kid's pet would be cruel not only to the innocent animal, but would have the opposite of the desired effect on the child. "Respect" wouldn't be gained for the parents. Only mistrust, fear, and, possibly, hatred on the part of the child.

Yeah, the kid would do what he/she was told, but not out of respect or a desire not to sin. That punishment is way out of proportion to the "crime."
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Old 05-25-2019, 02:19 PM
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Is this serious?

So if little Johnny lies or leers at the neighbor girl, cutting Rovers throat and traumatizing him will teach him what exactly?

To despise you for the rest of your life?

Or burning the stuff you presumably bought him with your money will teach him what?

That Dad is a retard who literally lights his money on fire?



Ass beatings are free and teach important life lessons.
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Old 05-25-2019, 02:32 PM
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I’m serious. Yes, Jesus atones for our eternal salvation but such blood or electronic deceived atones for their temporal sin.

Children should not hate the sacrifice for their sin but hate themselves for their hate filled choices.

To say ass beatings are free fails to embrace the ancient penalty and true seriousness of sin. I suspect kids today would rather get an ass beating than permanently lose their phone or video games.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:14 PM
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God said "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins". This actually shows us how serious God is about us being obedient. But, Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. There is no need to further shed blood for forgiveness. But God hasnt changed. He still despises SIN. Teaching kids this principal is something better left to God.
Like someone said, lead the folks to Jesus, then once they are a child of God, He will get their attention one way or another. Judgement begins with the House of God. Noone is getting away with anything.
As far as punishment goes, I see no problem of removing any/all social devices. But trying to equate that with SACRIFICE is WAY OUT THERE, even nonsense!
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:35 PM
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Killing the kid's pet would be cruel not only to the innocent animal, but would have the opposite of the desired effect on the child. "Respect" wouldn't be gained for the parents. Only mistrust, fear, and, possibly, hatred on the part of the child.
Odd to read this from you. Do you suppose those who lived in OT times experienced that? And perhaps more to the point, do you suppose the almighty intended that as part of the Old Testament covenant?
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:47 PM
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God said "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins". This actually shows us how serious God is about us being obedient. But, Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.
Ultimate does not mean only. From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ultimate
ultimate adjective
ul∑​ti∑​mate | \ ˈəl-tə-mət \
Definition of ultimate (Entry 1 of 3)
1a : last in a progression or series : FINAL
their ultimate destination was Paris
b : EVENTUAL sense 2
they hoped for ultimate success
c : the best or most extreme of its kind : UTMOST
the ultimate sacrifice
d : most remote in space or time : FARTHEST
2 : arrived at as the last result
the ultimate question
3a : ORIGINAL sense 1
the ultimate source
b : BASIC, FUNDAMENTAL
the ultimate nature of things
ó A. N. Whitehead
c : incapable of further analysis, division, or separation
Plus, the Bible refers to sacrificing oneself daily. Surely, this sacrifice is after Jesus, no?

And he said to all, ďIf anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Luke 9:23


And Jesus talks about literally sacrificing one bodily.

If your eye causes you to sin, poke it out and get rid of it. You would be better off to go into life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fires of hell.
Matthew 18:9 CEV
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Old 05-25-2019, 09:45 PM
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Killing the kid's pet would be cruel not only to the innocent animal, but would have the opposite of the desired effect on the child. "Respect" wouldn't be gained for the parents. Only mistrust, fear, and, possibly, hatred on the part of the child.

Yeah, the kid would do what he/she was told, but not out of respect or a desire not to sin. That punishment is way out of proportion to the "crime."
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Odd to read this from you. Do you suppose those who lived in OT times experienced that? And perhaps more to the point, do you suppose the almighty intended that as part of the Old Testament covenant?
Why would the opinion I expressed in my post seem odd to you? What ever gave you the impression that I was a brutal father who used force and fear to raise my child??

First of all, I am not opposed to occasional corporal punishment if it becomes necessary due to the deteriorating behavior of the child. However, I very rarely had to use it on my son - maybe, two or three times his entire childhood.

I come from an era when corporal punishment was meted out without a second thought. In fact, based on the politically correct mentality of today all of the parents in my immigrant neighborhood would be in jail today for child abuse. It doesn't work. All it does is make the kid fearful and resentful of the parents.

From a religious point of view, the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant which, as far as I'm aware, doesn't advocate killing your children's pets to make them stop committing sins.

Quite frankly, I was trying to be respectful of the thread and I answered as diplomatically as I know how. The truth be known, in my opinion, killing your kid's pet to make him atone for his "sins" is absolutely INSANE!

A loving family life, going to Church, attending Sunday School, playing sports, and steering the kid in the right direction works a lot better than brutal beatings and Old Covenant blood sacrifices in the form of killing your kid's puppy, parrot, or turtle.

I didn't do too badly with my program. My son is 29 and never used drugs, doesn't smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol. He and my daughter-in-law gave me two darling granddaughters whom I LOVE dearly. They go to the local Orthodox Church and Sunday School. He is starting his eighth year as a police officer in a major metropolitan police department and owns a 5 acre property and nice house in a rural area.

Believe it or not, the kid accomplished all this without brutal Old Covenant beatings or pet killings! Can you imagine that???
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:13 AM
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I think there are big ideas at play here. Obviously, sin is very serious....and yes, we don't recognize its seriousness as we should. I think in the OT, having to take in a part of one's livelihood, and/or a part of the food supply for the family....that must've been a real and tangible way of seeing one's sins.

I don't agree with taking family pets in for a sacrifice to make a point, but then it feels like that was more of an idea than a realistic approach? But it does make a point....it makes my sins suddenly feel real.

I'm more of the line of thought that a child's attitude at two will be their attitude at 15, so at a young age, we corrected and taught and led our kids....so that come the teen yrs, they would (hopefully) not be hellions. We didn't like 2yr old hellions....so why would we like teenage ones? Thus, when dinner was over tonight, each kiddo asked politely if they could finish watching the shows they had paused when we called them to set the table, feed the dogs, and eat dinner. They both got a yes. And when I was snuggling and praying and tucking in my dd tonight, I just reminded her that the phone and the ipad needed to go back to the LR before bed, and she yes ma'am-ed me, and did so. No need for extremes....because we worked hard to lovingly correct her self will at 2 (and 3, and 4, and 5....etc, lol). (We still have some yrs left, so I pray that the foundation we laid in their early yrs is strong and healthy.) (We also have very tight electronics rules.)

But then, taking this line of thought down a different turn....the idea of public killings by people to deter criminals...or to dissuade certain behaviors.... Would that kind of be considered a similar idea? Not for the atonement....but the very real aftermath of sins committed?

Religiously, my sins have been atoned for, by Christ's sacrifice. Yes, I need to die to my self daily....to my will, my ambitions, my way, etc....that is my sacrifice....but that's not a sacrifice that atones for my sins. It's a daily choice I choose to make....to allow God to be the Lord of my life, and to let Him know that I submit to doing things His way.
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Old 05-26-2019, 12:51 AM
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I
I'm more of the line of thought that a child's attitude at two will be their attitude at 15, so at a young age, we corrected and taught and led our kids....so that come the teen yrs, they would (hopefully) not be hellions. We didn't like 2yr old hellions....so why would we like teenage ones? ...
We seem to be pretty much on the same page. It's a process of education and guidance to raise a child properly. It's a lot of work and begins right after birth, but it's worth it.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:20 AM
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I don't agree with taking family pets in for a sacrifice to make a point, but then it feels like that was more of an idea than a realistic approach? But it does make a point....it makes my sins suddenly feel real.
EXACTLY. I was inspired by 2 Samuel and the parable of the pet goat to start this thread. As I wrote the OP, I realized in this day and age, children are more in communion with their electronics than even their pet - and therefore, the electronic sacrifice would be the greater sacrifice. I finished 2 Samuel this morning. The CEV Study reinforced the point of tangible sacrifice:
24:24 I CAN'T OFFER THE LORD MY GOD A SACRIFICE THAT COST ME NOTHING (THE COST OF CHRISTIANITY) David's insistence to pay for a small plot of land on which to build an altar demonstrated an important truth: Christianity that costs nothing is worth nothing. Don't look for easy roads. Serving God is costly but worth every price and sacrifice.
'Worth every price and sacrifice' implies sacrifice we make today in our lives. I don't see people making a lot of sacrifices today for serving God - beyond giving up POTENTIAL assets, not actual assets.

And I was thinking about the relationship between OT blood sacrifice for sins and adult baptism into Christianity. For those who talk in terms of pointing the child toward Christ, it seems until they do accept Christ and are baptized, the old covenant applies to them, i.e., by blood or electronic sacrifice is THE tangible means of conveying the seriousness of their childish sin.

Let's turn this around; is there any Old Testament verse that excludes children for making blood sacrifices for their sin?

To be clear, I am NOT seriously suggesting people ought to sacrifice their pets for the children's sacrifice and I apologize if I was unclear in the OP. But I am serious about making a tangible sacrifice for sin, especially for children and a blood sacrifice when feasible, while recognizing an electronic sacrifice is likely the biggest sacrifice. Today, most people are not raised on a farm with a lot of animals to be sacrificed. (So, the only animals around to make a blood sacrifice would be their pets, right? But then after the 1st or 2nd sin sacrifice, there would be nothing left.)

Perhaps a modern day equivalent would be for the child to fast AFTER the child earned money to buy meat and watched the fruit of their labor burnt in sacrifice. However, this does not make the connection to blood, to life, like an electronic sacrifice. (For instance, my stepson's gf said her 2 yo only likes her because she lets him play with her tablet. ) The bottom line is that I am sick of today's emotionalism with little more than short term fretting before children return to sinning with impunity.
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:00 PM
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I'll be honest, I did and do spank my kids. Not when angry, and almost always after saying something one time. (If you wait till the 5th time....you get angry ...just sayin'.) To me, a quick bit of pain was reminder of their sin. My dd would be kinda mad at me at age 2/3, after a spanking...."you HURT ME, Mommy." And I told her that disobedience will always hurt her, and that a spanking is a reminder of that. She only said it a few times, but spanking was a way to immediately deal with her sin, AND THEN we were restored to communion. I feel taking something away at that age ends up being forgotten. Or else, a looooong suffering of a smaller sin. Two weeks of not getting something is so long. A spanking is quick, and deals with the sin immediately, and I'm not having to tell my kid for a week or two how bad they were last week friday.....they are quickly restored to right communion within the family.

But then...I don't give 2yr olds electronic devices. I'm very much against that kind of "parenting". Children need interaction with their parents and not a device. I have very strong opinions on that, but I've said enough.
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:13 PM
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I feel immediate obedience is a safety issue. If I teach my kids to come immediately when I call them, or to stop immediately when I say stop, or to not touch when I say no touch....then I can know that when the need occurs, my kids will obey and be safe. I DID train my kids on all of those. I also trained them with the word, danger, and they listened. Honestly, we made coming to us and stopping a huuuge game, and we'd play it in the house all the time. We'd tell them to come to us, then stop....and they'd be nearly bursting to jump at us when we said to come after that! And we'd catch them and squeal with them and toss them in the air, and tell them that they listened so well! I didn't need my babies to run away from me when I said to come here....and I surely didn't need them to be hit by some car because I allowed them to disobey me. I didn't need my 10 month old to grab someone's hot coffee or someone's breakable doodad on their coffee table....so I trained my kids to not touch if I told them no touch. I never had to put stuff up and away....they got into what I allowed them to get into (I did let them bang on pots and pans from the cupboard, lol), but they didn't get into what they shouldn't (the knives, turning on the stove, tearing off the canned goods' wrappers, etc). My sister taught them at prolly 1&3 or 2&4 how to climb up the cabinet to stand on the counter and get into their snack cupboard....and I allowed that....and they could've gotten into alllll the cupboards, but they only got the snacks off their one shelf...and only after asking for permission. Honestly, them getting their own snacks was sanity for me, lol! Those stinkers were ALWAYS hungry! It was crazy-work when they were little....but it has more than paid for itself, over and over, now that they are older!
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:41 PM
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I'll be honest, I did and do spank my kids. ... a quick bit of pain was reminder of their sin. My dd would be kinda mad at me at age 2/3, after a spanking...."you HURT ME, Mommy." ... AND THEN we were restored to communion.
Seems to me too many parents today do not have the courage to stand up to their kids. Their kids say stuff like "you HURT ME, Mommy" and the parents end up apologizing to the kids!

My ex-gf used to reward her kid for bad behavior. He rationalizations were something to behold. OTOH, she could not tolerate her son, who was a boy, by the way, acting with high energy. I defended him one time at lunch with his cousins, pointing out that he is not being bad; he's just high energy.

The kid beamed when he realized what I was saying was true. When he misbehaved, and I forget what he did, but his mother would buy him video games, rationalizing he lashed out cause of anger of his father. No. He needed to be disciplined for bad behavior and allowed to burn off his high energy.

I helped him with that. Took him to the park, played tennis, taught him to ride a park. With his energy exhausted, he misbehaved less. Go figure. His mother had health issues (one kidney) and was often sick. So, she ended up going from one extreme to another; ignoring his need for discipline, then losing her cool and severely punishing him for minor things, including spanking - to the point she felt guilty and ended up rewarding him.

Thank God for her brother. He was the steady hand, even keel in the boy's life. The boy was intelligent and his uncle had the patience to calmly explain to him the ways of the world, what was right and wrong, generally and what the boy did wrong and what the boy's options were that would have been right.

I've seen too many parents use spanking but not teach the kid what they did was wrong and what they could have done that would and right and why. The parents were too emotional about it.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:21 PM
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Seriously, when you correct kids after saying something one time....you're not angry. You're still calm. And it does no good to just hit a kid. There needs to be talking, and reconciling, or you're just making angry children. I had to be taught to parent like this, as my parents weren't always the best example. Thankfully I had several friends with kids that I LIKED to be around....and I learned so much from them. My biggest prayer was that God would show me how to parent so that my kids were a joy to be around....for me + for others. I'd been around enough parents that couldn't stand their children.

When ds liked to push me...and/or thought HE needed to rule the roost and not listen to what a woman said (started at age 4....bless), daddy corrected that, but dh also told me that being a boy, he needed more work to do....and needed to be outside as much as possible. Tons of play + work, and he's calmer and respectful and less likely to pick on his sister or get into trouble. Wear those boys out with work!!! (I can tell he's been indoors more today....he just got fussed at for walking LOUD circles in the kitchen, lol!) If we didn't homeschool the boy, we'd have teachers telling us to medicate him and/or he'd get in trouble alot! I used to catch him reading upside down in a rocking chair.... And when he did his schoolwork in the kitchen, he banged his chair all day...while humming. Thankfully he does his work in his room, and idk what kind of weirdness goes down in there! I just know he wakes at 545/6, does his school asap, does chores and eats bfast, finishes his school, and is usually done for the day by 10am.
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Old 05-26-2019, 10:25 PM
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I thought this story was related to this topic of discussion. O.J. Simpson Kardashian Hook Up ruined their marriages
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:05 PM
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Killing the kid's pet would be cruel not only to the innocent animal, but would have the opposite of the desired effect on the child. "Respect" wouldn't be gained for the parents. Only mistrust, fear, and, possibly, hatred on the part of the child.
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Odd to read this from you. Do you suppose those who lived in OT times experienced that? And perhaps more to the point, do you suppose the almighty intended that as part of the Old Testament covenant?
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From a religious point of view, the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant which, as far as I'm aware, doesn't advocate killing your children's pets to make them stop committing sins.
Sad but consistent unwillingness to examine your own faith or answer specific questions.

Of course, you have to resort to the fallacy of Appeal to Diversion. I ask about the Old Covenant and you make a snarky reply about the New Covenant. The Old Testament DOES advocate blood sacrifice for sins. The OP was merely acknowledging the fact that people today do not have too many animals other than pets. (And, I know you also conveniently ignored my electronic substitution in today's era.)

Honestly, if you are not willing to critically examine your own faith or answer specific questions, there is no benefit to keep trolling religious threads. I'm sure you can proselytize more effectively elsewhere.

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Quite frankly, I was trying to be respectful of the thread and I answered as diplomatically as I know how.
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. Said differently, if you cannot go away gracefully, just go away.


Don't brag about yourself--let others praise you.
Proverbs 27:2 (CEV)
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Old 05-27-2019, 12:58 AM
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Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. Said differently, if you cannot go away gracefully, just go away.
]
Even though you are a jack ass, try not to act like one. Especially, when someone is trying to conduct a civil conversation.
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:44 AM
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Even though you are a jack ass, try not to act like one. Especially, when someone is trying to conduct a civil conversation.
Is that what you are trying to do, have a civil conversation, while calling me a jack ass? You donít believe your own BS.


Welcome all the Lordís followers, even those whose faith is weak. Donít criticize them for having beliefs that are different from yours.
Romans 14:1 (CEV)
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