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Old 01-30-2019, 01:32 PM
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Old 01-30-2019, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Snyper708 View Post
No matter how often you repeat yourself, a 9mm will never be a "good choice" for a deer rifle.
Except when its all you have and you can't get hold of his horns him to bulldog him down like a real cowboy and use your KaBar! The OP I believe was not referring to normal sport hunting, but emergency use in a duress scenario.
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Old 01-30-2019, 03:21 PM
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Except when its all you have and you can't get hold of his horns him to bulldog him down like a real cowboy and use your KaBar! The OP I believe was not referring to normal sport hunting, but emergency use in a duress scenario.
Exactly. If I knew I was gonna give after deer, I'd grab a 30 cal. But this is for use as a trunk gun. Itll mainly see 2 legged use but wanted something good enough for potential 4 legged as well
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Old 01-30-2019, 04:55 PM
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I'm wondering why there is all this argument about passing up any opportunity. During a SHTF scenario, that one kill could mean life or death. Have the right weapon to get the job done, because you won't want to pass on any opportunity since you may not get another. This argument is getting pretty damn old and IMO is pretty damn stupid.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:08 PM
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I'm wondering why there is all this argument about passing up any opportunity. During a SHTF scenario, that one kill could mean life or death. Have the right weapon to get the job done, because you won't want to pass on any opportunity since you may not get another. This argument is getting pretty damn old and IMO is pretty damn stupid.
My pcc will mainly be a get home gun where I'll have my larger calibers. I dont see much use for a 3030 or 3006 or even 5.56 with my commutes and a 9mm should suffice.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:34 PM
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Not you Deb.

No one should ever pass on an opportunity to feed themselves in a survival situation.

And, let us be clear here, nothing walks on the continent of North America that will not fall to a well placed 9mm fired from a reasonable range. I can say this because somewhere in Alaska, a Native American woman used a .22 LR to kill a grizzly bear. Was it the best choice? No. Was it her only choice? Yes.

If your only choice is a 9mm, you'll be fine. Shoot it a ton. Know where it shoots, how it shoots and when it shoots. Understand the limitations. And there are limitations. The worst crime you can commit is to not make a clean kill.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:40 PM
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Not you Deb.

No one should ever pass on an opportunity to feed themselves in a survival situation.

And, let us be clear here, nothing walks on the continent of North America that will not fall to a well placed 9mm fired from a reasonable range. I can say this because somewhere in Alaska, a Native American woman used a .22 LR to kill a grizzly bear. Was it the best choice? No. Was it her only choice? Yes.

If your only choice is a 9mm, you'll be fine. Shoot it a ton. Know where it shoots, how it shoots and when it shoots. Understand the limitations. And there are limitations. The worst crime you can commit is to not make a clean kill.
I was gonna say, I didn't know why I was under fire lol. I'm used to a lot of people here taking shots at me. Both puns unintended. But I agree. Just shy of a big bear (which here in northern ky we dint have to worry about) a 9mm should more than suffice. Especially if it's just on a little 10 mile walk home from work through the urban streets. I'm mainly looking to defend during these times. When it comes time to kill for food, I have a caliber for that
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Old 02-02-2019, 06:47 PM
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My pcc will mainly be a get home gun where I'll have my larger calibers. I dont see much use for a 3030 or 3006 or even 5.56 with my commutes and a 9mm should suffice.
Excellent in regards to more information as to why the idea for a specific 9mm pcc was brought about in the first place.

Would it fulfill this objective? I believe 5hat it could......but with that said.....other more capable weapons could accomplish the same and be much more successful at it from the start.

More suggestions.............

Review your requirements and prioritize instead.

Example: Notice how the 9mm proponents keep dropping the effective range concerning. the critter killing ability. ( It started with idiots claiming 200 yards easily on down to the more realistic 50 yards with quality/ expensive ammunition and perfect shot placement on a consistent basis every time.

Lets look at the whole picture for just one second here. That info is coming from folks who claim to achieve this under very different circumstances than what you want and are describing for a " emergency get home Yada yada weapon meeting a minimum standard.

In addition, and unlike them well fed well rested folks who claim to accomplish this feat on terrain they are very familiar with and can afford to stalk prey, wait for that perfect shot every time, etc..... the circumstances that you describe have little in common. ( Unfamiliar terrain minus what you observe from the highway, a very realistic possibility that you would be cold, wet, and exhausted from moving thru that terrain on foot, etc...... And the very real prospect that even well fed / rested year around hunters that accomplish them tasks on very familiar terrain not always can get it done with the " minimum" no matter what they may claim. ( I call bs regardless.)

Example: A deer just stands up broadside at at 25 frikin yards = an opportunity . ( That same opportunity is also equally possible with your hand gun, a 1022, or a 22 45 for Christ sake.)

This is why I suggest you focus more on pulling a tad higher than a minimum requirement.

Another example in pic below. The perfect " opurtunistic shot in broad daylight with a distance of less than 10 inches on a Colorado mulie. ( I took a picture instead of harvesting this deer, as we didnt need it for food at that time. )
Also have plenty more pics of up closer encounters with deer , hogs, and people .

Edit.....The point here is that while a perfect " could have killed it with a rock" moment can occur, it should not be counted on when it is needed most, and preparation should lean more towards a worst case side to begin with. Same applies to security as it does with hunting.

I will have to follow up in another post as shtf just recent like....jk

11B
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Old 02-02-2019, 07:29 PM
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Poor choice. Like a guy at camp one year, many years ago. We all told him bring the brush rig. He didn’t listen at all. Shows up with his long barrel 300 Win mag with 4-16x scope. He even admited as soon as he shouldered he couldn’t see anything but brush, even on 4x. Said the fine cross hairs vanished into the twigs and branches. 40 yard shots are world record long distance shots there. You mean poor choices like that, right? He could have used something better for the available terrain.
And thats why I will not normally consider buying a deer rifle if it doesn't have open sights on it. I killed my deer this tear with a peep sighted Winchester 30-30. It worked fine for the 50 yard shot I made. I could have made the same shot with my Camp Carbine. But the 30-30 was a more intelligent choice.

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This is why I suggest you focus more on pulling a tad higher than a minimum requirement.
If the OP wants a PCC I would suggest a lever 357. You get a 400fps boost in velocity with factory loads and even more if you hand load. And it doesn't throw your brass away for you. In a SHTF situation being able to save your brass may be the one thing that lets you keep on shooting if you reload.
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
Excellent in regards to more information as to why the idea for a specific 9mm pcc was brought about in the first place.

Would it fulfill this objective? I believe 5hat it could......but with that said.....other more capable weapons could accomplish the same and be much more successful at it from the start.

More suggestions.............

Review your requirements and prioritize instead.

Example: Notice how the 9mm proponents keep dropping the effective range concerning. the critter killing ability. ( It started with idiots claiming 200 yards easily on down to the more realistic 50 yards with quality/ expensive ammunition and perfect shot placement on a consistent basis every time.

Lets look at the whole picture for just one second here. That info is coming from folks who claim to achieve this under very different circumstances than what you want and are describing for a " emergency get home Yada yada weapon meeting a minimum standard.

In addition, and unlike them well fed well rested folks who claim to accomplish this feat on terrain they are very familiar with and can afford to stalk prey, wait for that perfect shot every time, etc..... the circumstances that you describe have little in common. ( Unfamiliar terrain minus what you observe from the highway, a very realistic possibility that you would be cold, wet, and exhausted from moving thru that terrain on foot, etc...... And the very real prospect that even well fed / rested year around hunters that accomplish them tasks on very familiar terrain not always can get it done with the " minimum" no matter what they may claim. ( I call bs regardless.)

Example: A deer just stands up broadside at at 25 frikin yards = an opportunity . ( That same opportunity is also equally possible with your hand gun, a 1022, or a 22 45 for Christ sake.)

This is why I suggest you focus more on pulling a tad higher than a minimum requirement.

Another example in pic below. The perfect " opurtunistic shot in broad daylight with a distance of less than 10 inches on a Colorado mulie. ( I took a picture instead of harvesting this deer, as we didnt need it for food at that time. )
Also have plenty more pics of up closer encounters with deer , hogs, and people .

Edit.....The point here is that while a perfect " could have killed it with a rock" moment can occur, it should not be counted on when it is needed most, and preparation should lean more towards a worst case side to begin with. Same applies to security as it does with hunting.

I will have to follow up in another post as shtf just recent like....jk

11B
Typically...I don't do this , but due to circumstances ....had to follow up via this post to the other quoted above.



I also have a direct comparison for you to consider...up next to the Ruger 9mm PC carbine.

This is a C39V2 . A very compact package that uses easy to find inexpensive 7.62x39mm 125gr jsp ammunition . ( Terminal effects are roughly equivalent to similar 3030 offerings )

Compared to the Ruger, you end up with a firearm that equals in overall weight, much more compact, more reliable, costs less to feed, sports a std cap 30rd mags and 40rd or 75rd hi cap option, twice the effective range, ammo that weighs about the same as 357 magnum, and terminal effects on par with 3030 in a semiauto DBM package with obtainable spare parts if required.
A threaded muzzle and no need to break it down into separate components . ( In reality, you would be depending on your handgun when an urgent need requires immediate attention...vs....a takedown pcc stuffed into a backpack.)

Note: The Ruger iron sights have a bit more sight radius compared to the C39.

Note: For informational purposes, this C39 is classified as a pistol. It matters little unless you reside in an area of the country that has restrictions on transporting rifles/ carbines loaded while pistols are legal .

In this specific case, the C39 here costs me 350 bucks as of early this morning , and dumped 3 hogs with it about an hour or so ago. ( Haven't had time to run it over a chrono as yet, but them hogs got snuffed just the same.)
Note: Nothing fancy . They died just fine with iron sights and cheap MFS 7.62x39mm 125gr jsp. ( More than plenty vs deer or pig from any angle out past the effective consistent 9mm/40SnW/ 45 ACP range.

Note: Once evals are complete, this particular firearm will fill the PDW/ truck gun/ RV gun/ HD/ suppressed/ med game at med distance/ close quarter roles, and share ammo, mags, spare parts with our group's secondary CF rifle.

11B
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:25 AM
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The OP is looking at a pcc primarily as a " get home" gun. If I was stuck walking home as described and found myself in a standing field of corn, I would conserve ammo and fill up on the frikin corn. No pressing need to shoot deer when you can simply pick what you need to get back to the house.

The real problem stems from whoever might own that property/ corn. They just might label me as a trespasser/ thief and take matters into thier own hands, while Im stuck in an area with very little cover and armed with a 9mm long gun. Basically a sitting duck if they are located in an elevated position and armed with rifles. ( Travel light, move at night = little time for me to be out there stalking deer)

More food for thought here...... Picture the same area when a certain time of the year turns it into a large open field.

11B
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:05 PM
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how stupid it is. Lets not tie up the tread with petty bickering. some of us want to learn from the experiences of others.
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Old 02-03-2019, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout View Post
Typically...I don't do this , but due to circumstances ....had to follow up via this post to the other quoted above.



I also have a direct comparison for you to consider...up next to the Ruger 9mm PC carbine.

This is a C39V2 . A very compact package that uses easy to find inexpensive 7.62x39mm 125gr jsp ammunition . ( Terminal effects are roughly equivalent to similar 3030 offerings )

Compared to the Ruger, you end up with a firearm that equals in overall weight, much more compact, more reliable, costs less to feed, sports a std cap 30rd mags and 40rd or 75rd hi cap option, twice the effective range, ammo that weighs about the same as 357 magnum, and terminal effects on par with 3030 in a semiauto DBM package with obtainable spare parts if required.
A threaded muzzle and no need to break it down into separate components . ( In reality, you would be depending on your handgun when an urgent need requires immediate attention...vs....a takedown pcc stuffed into a backpack.)

Note: The Ruger iron sights have a bit more sight radius compared to the C39.

Note: For informational purposes, this C39 is classified as a pistol. It matters little unless you reside in an area of the country that has restrictions on transporting rifles/ carbines loaded while pistols are legal .

In this specific case, the C39 here costs me 350 bucks as of early this morning , and dumped 3 hogs with it about an hour or so ago. ( Haven't had time to run it over a chrono as yet, but them hogs got snuffed just the same.)
Note: Nothing fancy . They died just fine with iron sights and cheap MFS 7.62x39mm 125gr jsp. ( More than plenty vs deer or pig from any angle out past the effective consistent 9mm/40SnW/ 45 ACP range.

Note: Once evals are complete, this particular firearm will fill the PDW/ truck gun/ RV gun/ HD/ suppressed/ med game at med distance/ close quarter roles, and share ammo, mags, spare parts with our group's secondary CF rifle.

11B
For the size of the AK (or AR) pistol, it's hard to argue in favor of most PCCs. Now, when you get into the SMG-type 9mm pistols, their biggest advantage is weight and size. I am trying the newer generation with braces (MPX-K, GHM9, CZ Scorpion, Glock/RONI, etc.). They are small enough to fit into a brief case sized bag or pack if not needed in hand (they definitely DON'T replace your CCW). As a platform, they excel at much faster, accurate shots at distance than you could with a handgun, and that isn't even debatable outside of those who do competition for a living. As a "platform", they not only provide a more stable platform, but host some advantageous additions such as a longer sight radius, MRDS, and light. Yes, most pistols can host those as well, but many are not actively CCWing pistols with those additions.

I haven't stretched the shorter "pistols" beyond 100 meters, but I still consider 9mm a viable game or defensive round out to 150 meters which is what I consider the limit; both for my skill level of accuracy and terminal performance. More likely, it's best suited inside 100 meters, which is where I think these niche guns shine: better accuracy than a pistol, lighter and smaller than a carbine, and likely a better suppressor host than a rifle round.

There are better terminal-performers and I am in no way saying 9mm is better suited than 5.56, 7.62x39, or .300 BO, even in pistol forms, just that some of the smaller 9mm pistol/SMG versions are more compact and lighter without the significant blast/flash of a rifle round, and more than adequate for self-defensive situations inside 100 meters.

ROCK6
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Old 02-04-2019, 07:17 AM
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For the size of the AK (or AR) pistol, it's hard to argue in favor of most PCCs. Now, when you get into the SMG-type 9mm pistols, their biggest advantage is weight and size. I am trying the newer generation with braces (MPX-K, GHM9, CZ Scorpion, Glock/RONI, etc.). They are small enough to fit into a brief case sized bag or pack if not needed in hand (they definitely DON'T replace your CCW). As a platform, they excel at much faster, accurate shots at distance than you could with a handgun, and that isn't even debatable outside of those who do competition for a living. As a "platform", they not only provide a more stable platform, but host some advantageous additions such as a longer sight radius, MRDS, and light. Yes, most pistols can host those as well, but many are not actively CCWing pistols with those additions.

I haven't stretched the shorter "pistols" beyond 100 meters, but I still consider 9mm a viable game or defensive round out to 150 meters which is what I consider the limit; both for my skill level of accuracy and terminal performance. More likely, it's best suited inside 100 meters, which is where I think these niche guns shine: better accuracy than a pistol, lighter and smaller than a carbine, and likely a better suppressor host than a rifle round.

There are better terminal-performers and I am in no way saying 9mm is better suited than 5.56, 7.62x39, or .300 BO, even in pistol forms, just that some of the smaller 9mm pistol/SMG versions are more compact and lighter without the significant blast/flash of a rifle round, and more than adequate for self-defensive situations inside 100 meters.

ROCK6
I have to say that Sub 2000 fits the same niche roll that the scorpion and mpx pistols do. It is just as light and folds up into an even smaller package.

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Old 02-04-2019, 08:26 AM
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I have to say that Sub 2000 fits the same niche roll that the scorpion and mpx pistols do. It is just as light and folds up into an even smaller package.

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Agreed...I have one of those too







It can go just as compact, just not "ready to fire"; however, with a little practice, I carried this in a "brief case" and deployed the SUB2K extremely fast. They also carry very well in a single point sling under a jacket and can be extended and put into action very fast also. They definitely have their place in the same conversation.

ROCK6
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Old 02-04-2019, 08:34 AM
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9mm have killed bear, so yes, it will kill deer. But just because it can, doesn't mean you should. For short distances, I would go with the cheaper 22. For longer distances, get a caliber that will ensure a quick kill. It's not just about whether it will kill, but also about killing the animal humanely.

Every firearm has it's purpose. A carbine was not designed to be a hunter. It can be, but it's not that way by design. There ARE 9mm rifles and if you do any kind of research, they will tell you to use +P for hunting. +P 9mm will reach velocities close to the lower end 357. It really isn't a great hunting round compared to many others, but could get the job done with good shot placement. And if you look around, most of the videos you will see, are short range shots (under 50 yards). The few long range ones, are out of a rifle with long barrel.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:49 AM
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A 9mm will handle the same chores as a .357 Magnum, given equivalent bullet weight and velocity. Either one is considerably more capable that the .38 Special with the standard velocity loads. I have, however, taken white-tail deer with the .38 Special, using a lead hollow point semi-wadcutter bullet. It did the job just fine, given the exceptional nature of the circumstances that allowed that shot to be taken. Deer was about fifteen feet (not yards, feet) from me, and had no idea there was a human around, so he was totally calm and relaxed when I broke his spine just at the base of the skull. So we're picking nits here. And while nits make lice, it's a tad boring as a spectator sport.
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Old 02-04-2019, 04:18 PM
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Good grief! All this back and forth over what will kill a deer and a 9mm carbine. What started off as a pretty good thread has turned in to a ****ing match over really nothing.

First the 9mm is not a long range round. For deer I would limit it to 50 yards. Its is not anything close to a good choice for deer except if its all you have. I can keep mine on a mans chest out to 200 yards and I know this because I have shot it that far. But for personal SD 100 yards is a much better limit.

Will it kill deer? Yes it will at short range. Same as a 22 at REALLY short range. But neither are good deer choices. Will a 9mm pistol kill deer? Yes it will. My bud had to shoot a young buck that got his antlers tangled in a barbed wire fence. He couldn't get close to the deer to get him untangled. He had to shoot him with a 9mm Glock. One shot, dead deer.

I have had a couple of deer walk 3 feet on front of me while in my ground blind. I was sitting on top of a platform stand that is 5 foot off the ground and had a buck deer within 6 foot of me. I couldn't bring myself to shoot him at that range so let him walk off about 25 yards and then shot. And missed. My 30-30 hit a little finger sized limb I couldn't see in the scope and exploded my bullet. The deer just walked a little faster and disappeared in the woods.

All this name calling proves nothing and serves no purpose. I hope you guys will knock it off before this thread gets closed.
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Old 02-04-2019, 07:49 PM
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Y’all better knockoff the bickering and stay on topic.

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Old 02-06-2019, 07:01 AM
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Why did some of the WWII Lugers come with the 800 meter sights?
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