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Old 01-14-2019, 11:49 PM
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Until you actually get one and learn to shoot it, were right back to you not having an informed opinion on this.

Ive had more experience with stocked shotguns, of all types, and currently, own and shoot a number of the "riot" type, and I dont have any troubles shooting my Shockwave as effectively when used in the same likely capacity, and at the same distances, as I would a stocked gun. Except for maybe shooting birds on the fly. If anything, its easier to move and shoot with the Shockwave.


I think in the context of bear country, something like this has an advantage similar to a large handgun, as its something youre more likely to, and more easily always have on your person, over a long gun, and not be as encumbered with it.

What you do with it in a hurry, isnt going to be any different than a stocked gun, if youre familiar and practiced with it. But.... you do need to be that, and do that, to know.

In tight spaces or tight brush, etc, I do think it would be an advantage, and moving with it, and getting on target with it quickly in those situations, would be a lot easier.
With respect, you're a sample of one. And an anomaly at that.

It's commonly accepted and known in the gun community that a stocked long gun is INHERENTLY easier to use and master and aim and fire and absorb recoil than a NON- stocked weapon.

Otherwise, there would be no "stocked" weapons. This is very fundamentally correct information.

With the stock, in addition to recoil absorbing, and proper cheek weld, especially with a pump weapon, when you are PULLING against your shoulder. Your upper body is probably 100 times stronger than your wrist. With a PGO or birdshead, you are absorbing recoil with wrist and thumb (among the weakest joints in the body (hence martial arts moves like wrist locks) and forearm (not strong muscles or bones).

I've studied physics and biology, and understand the muscle and bone structure of humans. I've fired guns that have high recoil. I fully understand (and have experienced) the difference.

By analogy, the .500 SW revolver is brutal to fire. But far larger, heavier, faster bullets fired from a stocked rifle are a breeze. Or if we went to an extreme to demonstrate, you'd never fire a .50 BMG in a pistol form without a stocked rifle setup. The extremes demonstrate the abuse the wrist/thumb/forearm take.

I'm re-linking this. This man is far stronger than the average man. He is able to control the birdshead 12 gauge mossy, but it's clearly not pleasant and barely under control. The recoil pulls the gun far off target and he's firing from the hip, where accuracy greatly suffers. https://youtu.be/tpZ0fOU1iMo

Hence, with a stocked gun, accuracy, speed, and reliability will be inherently better and faster. I don't care who you are. If you put 10 hours into either platform, the stocked gun is superior in probably every case to the person.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:49 AM
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Why?

It's slower and less accurate (assuming the exact same amount of training with a stocked shotgun), less muzzle energy, less potential capacity, and the weight difference is trivial. And presumably loaded with full power slugs (maybe even 3" or larger) it would be a vastly different shooting experience.

Literally offers no real-world advantage against a bear, and is marginally lighter for hiking. Perhaps there might be a scenario where a bear is atop and pinning you down, and you might be able to maneuver a shorty better - but that's getting into fantasy territory.
Weight difference is very noticeable. Speed to first shot is no different and in tight spaces it has manuererabilty advantages and no worry about not shouldering in odd position positions, not all shooting happens on sterile 2D KD ranges. What you do have right is shooting experience but not like your imagination is telling you. With slugs, they kill different. At 40 yards a regular foster low recoil (1300 FPS) has noticeably less hitting power. At 90 yards a 22” barrel with same shot placement drops them harder, but the sample group on the 14” barrel is much smaller so it’ll take years to get a final conclusion. Federal deep penetrators at 1350fps penetrate better than most Brenneke options and will be perfect for bear. I wouldn’t trust regular fosters from the 14” barrel (on bear). I wouldn’t use it past 40 yards on anything other than varmints or the smallest of deer, and I haven’t shot it past 40 with slugs anyway. Really no need to because I only use it in real tight stuff and 40 yards is a world record long distance shot in thick stuff.

Are you saying your experience with yours is vastly different?
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:02 AM
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With respect, you're a sample of one. And an anomaly at that.

It's commonly accepted and known in the gun community that a stocked long gun is INHERENTLY easier to use and master and aim and fire and absorb recoil than a NON- stocked weapon.

Otherwise, there would be no "stocked" weapons. This is very fundamentally correct information.

With the stock, in addition to recoil absorbing, and proper cheek weld, especially with a pump weapon, when you are PULLING against your shoulder. Your upper body is probably 100 times stronger than your wrist. With a PGO or birdshead, you are absorbing recoil with wrist and thumb (among the weakest joints in the body (hence martial arts moves like wrist locks) and forearm (not strong muscles or bones).

I've studied physics and biology, and understand the muscle and bone structure of humans. I've fired guns that have high recoil. I fully understand (and have experienced) the difference.

By analogy, the .500 SW revolver is brutal to fire. But far larger, heavier, faster bullets fired from a stocked rifle are a breeze. Or if we went to an extreme to demonstrate, you'd never fire a .50 BMG in a pistol form without a stocked rifle setup. The extremes demonstrate the abuse the wrist/thumb/forearm take.

I'm re-linking this. This man is far stronger than the average man. He is able to control the birdshead 12 gauge mossy, but it's clearly not pleasant and barely under control. The recoil pulls the gun far off target and he's firing from the hip, where accuracy greatly suffers. https://youtu.be/tpZ0fOU1iMo

Hence, with a stocked gun, accuracy, speed, and reliability will be inherently better and faster. I don't care who you are. If you put 10 hours into either platform, the stocked gun is superior in probably every case to the person.
Look, until you actually get out and spend some quality time with one, to actually have experience and know what youre talking about there is no point in going on here. You just keep rewording what you dont know, trying to tell us that you do know.

Since you dont have experience with it, you dont understand how to shoot it, and I dont care how big a muscle man you are, if you dont shoot it properly, youre not likely going to have a good experience with it.

Youre still basing things on what youve seen "other people" do and say, and the two videos youve linked, show people who dont have experience with (and in one, readily admit that), and arent shooting them as they should be shot.

If you try and shoot the guns like they are, and how you seem to think you would be shooting one, especially if youre hesitant and not aggressive in shooting them, as you should be with ANYTHING you shoot, what youre seeing is what youre likely to get.

Shoot them aggressively, and properly, and your experience will likely be totally different.

Your "commonly accepted and known in the gun community" thing is based on what? People who have little to no experience with the pistol gripped shotguns? And specifically, the birds head type, which is a different gun than the pistol gripped type. Not that both wouldnt be used in a similar manner, the birds head is still the better choice of the two.


Go get one, actually put in a little time and effort to learn to shoot it, and then get back to us.


Im not an anomaly here either, unless bothering to take the time and make the effort to actually learn to shoot things properly is the anomaly.

Ive constantly been told over the years by "experts" that full auto guns are uncontrollable and cant be shot as I try to explain they can. Its basically the same thing we have going on here. Yet my kids at 8, who were taught to shoot them properly, and had, what Im sure was actually more trigger time on one than the "expert", easily proved them wrong, and readily and easily did things that was "supposed" to not be possible. Why do you suppose that is?

The answer is simple, you either have experience and training with things or you dont. My kids, and myself as well, were lucky enough to grow up in that atmosphere, and have knowledgeable people teach us, and the availability of things to learn on.

"Most" people, and in my experience, that includes a lot of military, and exmilitary, just dont have a lot of exposure, let alone training on a lot of things, but especially things that in the civilian world, are in the NFA. Which is where these types of shotguns have resided up until just recently.

Now, that they are available, a lot of people are buying them, yet basically, no one other than maybe Gabe Suarez, has bothered to see if they are a viable tool and bothered to learn their place and how to shoot them realistically, and show that they are. People may hate him for all sorts of things and reasons, but from what Ive seen, pretty much everything he teaches, makes sense to me.

What you have instead, are people on YouTube and internet gun forums telling you they are uncontrollable and cant be shot well. Sorry if Ive heard it all before and disagree.

Seriously, go buy one and learn to shoot it. Its just one more thing in life you dont know, you can check the box on.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by leadcounsel View Post
Why?

It's slower and less accurate (assuming the exact same amount of training with a stocked shotgun), less muzzle energy, less potential capacity, and the weight difference is trivial. And presumably loaded with full power slugs (maybe even 3" or larger) it would be a vastly different shooting experience.

Literally offers no real-world advantage against a bear, and is marginally lighter for hiking. Perhaps there might be a scenario where a bear is atop and pinning you down, and you might be able to maneuver a shorty better - but that's getting into fantasy territory.
I think you're missing one aspect here: packability.

Sure, it might not be a lot lighter than a stocked shotgun, but it for dang sure will fit in a backpack better (or maybe even a jackleg holster, like Steve McQueen's mare's leg in Wanted, Dead or Alive).


Honestly, though, I see no need to justify it to anyone (except my wife, and she usually believes my tall tales of firearm need).
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:24 PM
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weight difference is very noticeable. Speed to first shot is no different and in tight spaces it has manuererabilty advantages and no worry about not shouldering in odd position positions, not all shooting happens on sterile 2d kd ranges. What you do have right is shooting experience but not like your imagination is telling you. With slugs, they kill different. At 40 yards a regular foster low recoil (1300 fps) has noticeably less hitting power. At 90 yards a 22” barrel with same shot placement drops them harder, but the sample group on the 14” barrel is much smaller so it’ll take years to get a final conclusion. Federal deep penetrators at 1350fps penetrate better than most brenneke options and will be perfect for bear. I wouldn’t trust regular fosters from the 14” barrel (on bear). I wouldn’t use it past 40 yards on anything other than varmints or the smallest of deer, and i haven’t shot it past 40 with slugs anyway. Really no need to because i only use it in real tight stuff and 40 yards is a world record long distance shot in thick stuff.

Are you saying your experience with yours is vastly different?
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:29 PM
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Look, until you actually get out and spend some quality time with one, to actually have experience and know what youre talking about there is no point in going on here. You just keep rewording what you dont know, trying to tell us that you do know.

Since you dont have experience with it, you dont understand how to shoot it, and I dont care how big a muscle man you are, if you dont shoot it properly, youre not likely going to have a good experience with it.

Youre still basing things on what youve seen "other people" do and say, and the two videos youve linked, show people who dont have experience with (and in one, readily admit that), and arent shooting them as they should be shot.

If you try and shoot the guns like they are, and how you seem to think you would be shooting one, especially if youre hesitant and not aggressive in shooting them, as you should be with ANYTHING you shoot, what youre seeing is what youre likely to get.

Shoot them aggressively, and properly, and your experience will likely be totally different.

Your "commonly accepted and known in the gun community" thing is based on what? People who have little to no experience with the pistol gripped shotguns? And specifically, the birds head type, which is a different gun than the pistol gripped type. Not that both wouldnt be used in a similar manner, the birds head is still the better choice of the two.


Go get one, actually put in a little time and effort to learn to shoot it, and then get back to us.


Im not an anomaly here either, unless bothering to take the time and make the effort to actually learn to shoot things properly is the anomaly.

Ive constantly been told over the years by "experts" that full auto guns are uncontrollable and cant be shot as I try to explain they can. Its basically the same thing we have going on here. Yet my kids at 8, who were taught to shoot them properly, and had, what Im sure was actually more trigger time on one than the "expert", easily proved them wrong, and readily and easily did things that was "supposed" to not be possible. Why do you suppose that is?

The answer is simple, you either have experience and training with things or you dont. My kids, and myself as well, were lucky enough to grow up in that atmosphere, and have knowledgeable people teach us, and the availability of things to learn on.

"Most" people, and in my experience, that includes a lot of military, and exmilitary, just dont have a lot of exposure, let alone training on a lot of things, but especially things that in the civilian world, are in the NFA. Which is where these types of shotguns have resided up until just recently.

Now, that they are available, a lot of people are buying them, yet basically, no one other than maybe Gabe Suarez, has bothered to see if they are a viable tool and bothered to learn their place and how to shoot them realistically, and show that they are. People may hate him for all sorts of things and reasons, but from what Ive seen, pretty much everything he teaches, makes sense to me.

What you have instead, are people on YouTube and internet gun forums telling you they are uncontrollable and cant be shot well. Sorry if Ive heard it all before and disagree.

Seriously, go buy one and learn to shoot it. Its just one more thing in life you dont know, you can check the box on.
Look, I've been very curious about short shotguns for a long time. I've looked into them many times. I've read all the professional unbiased reviews and watched every video I can find. NO HONEST PROFESSIONAL REVIEWER I can find will or has said they are anything but a novelty for nearly every application. I'm repeating the overwhelming consensus of reviewers. I needn't go buy one and test one to have my suspicions confirmed by the overwhelming majority of those who did buy and test them....

Other things I have no experience with.
* Falling off a tall cliff to my death.
* Getting shot with a 12 gauge.
* Getting eaten by a bear.

But, I can assure you, physics and biology never take a moment off. They apply universally.

All things (and ammo) equal, the PHYSICS behind shooting a 12 gauge short barrel birdhead (or PGO) are vastly different than firing a 12 gauge shouldered shotgun with a longer barrel. You cannot argue against PHYSICS. And then there's capacity. My stocked pump guns with extended tubes hold 8+1. 50% more than what a Shockwave holds at 5+1.

Longer barrels produce more energy and more accuracy given stability of a slug (or tighter buck patterning), as well as having longer site radius, and accuracy at more range. Shoulder is stronger muscle than wrist/hand, provides more accuracy and faster followup with large caliber. With a pump, it WILL be more reliable and faster to pump. And so forth.

If you were correct, we'd immediately switch from carbines to large pistols in the the armed forces. We don't. Ergo, you are not right.

Go do a honest timed speed and accuracy test with both, and put it on video, and report back.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:04 PM
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Hey, I actually shoot one on a fairly regular basis. I actually do know what they are like. How about you?

Dont bother, we already know the answer.

Im not sure where the carbine to pistol comes in, but as Ive stated a number of times now, these days I prefer a 10" AR over pretty much everything else.

The very last thing I would grab, would be one of my 12 gauge riot guns, and the Shockwave is just the teensiest bit ahead of them in the queue too.

But, I still think you should get one and see what they are all about. Might surprise you, once you get some actual experience with one and understand it.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:20 PM
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Im not sure where the carbine to pistol comes in, but as Ive stated a number of times now, these days I prefer a 10" AR over pretty much everything else.
Obviously, the difference being a stock and longer barrel for ... wait for it... recoil, accuracy, longer site radius, cheek weld, follow up shots, longer range, and more energy from longer barrel.

Otherwise pistols would be logistically better for everyone. They aren't. There's a clear reason.

Heck, even older pistols were designed WITH stocks. And submachine guns with stocks.

Stocks are a significant force multiplier. How you cannot understand this and continue to argue against physics is breath-taking.
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:34 PM
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No argument that a SMG with a stock is better than one without, but one without, isn't all that hard to shoot either, if you know which ones and how. But again, its that pesky experience thing popping up again.

Handguns with stocks on the other hand, pretty much suck, or at least the couple Ive had, and a few of the others Ive shot did. Not worth the bother. Kind of defeats the purpose of the handgun too.

And all along, Ive never said the stocked shotgun wasnt better in "most" cases, but in certain circumstances, things like the Shockwaves, are better, if you know when and why, and know how to shoot them. Same thing goes with things like SMG's and FA. But thats not something you pick up reading about or watching a video.

But again, theres that experience thing.
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:19 PM
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I think this horse is pretty much beat to death... but if anyone is curious, the Shockwave is basically a Mossberg copy of the Remington WP870 that was used by the US Marshall's Service.

There's a reason they used it, and it's not just a gimmick... it served a purpose.
Here's a quick write-up I found on it, I'm sure there's more out there if anyone cares to look. This one even has a range test. Good patterns out to 15 yards, and they're running 12.5" barrels...

Notice the grip shape they went with.

https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...rotection-870/
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:52 PM
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I think this horse is pretty much beat to death... but if anyone is curious, the Shockwave is basically a Mossberg copy of the Remington WP870 that was used by the US Marshall's Service.

There's a reason they used it, and it's not just a gimmick... it served a purpose.
Here's a quick write-up I found on it, I'm sure there's more out there if anyone cares to look. This one even has a range test. Good patterns out to 15 yards, and they're running 12.5" barrels...

Notice the grip shape they went with.

https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...rotection-870/
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The WP870 has made several appearances in the media. I have a clipping from the November 11, 1985, issue of Newsweek magazine in my files that carried the headline “Busting the Bhagwam.” A photo shows a U.S. marshal carrying a WP870 as he escorts a prisoner to a hearing in Charlotte, North Carolina. In an Associated Press photo from February 2, 1987, a female marshal is shown providing court security during the trial of narco trafficker Carlos Lehder Rivas. The sight of this sawed-off scattergun certainly attracted attention and served as a deterrent....One of the marshals’ requirements of the Witness Protection 870 was that it be concealable under a jacket.

To be effective, the WP870 requires a unique firing position. The preferred position is to bring the shotgun to eye level and extended away from the face. In this manner, the WP870 is capable of sighted fire as if it were a stocked shotgun. To maximize recoil control, a push/pull grip is used with the support hand pushing forward while the strong hand pulls to the rear. Invariably, a new shooter will want to shoot it from the hip, Hollywood style. However, they will quickly learn how easy it is to miss an entire target from as close as 10 yards.

Given the mission parameters of the Witness Protection 870, we conducted pattern testing at 15 yards. The #4 buckshot, which is a sporting and hunting load, produced a pattern that measured 24 by 21 inches, with the diameter being 31.8 inches. The reduced-recoil Ranger loads patterned significantly better, with the nine-pellet load producing a pattern of 7 by 9 inches (11.9-inch diameter) while the eight-pellet pattern measured 7.5 by 9.5 inches (12.1-inch diameter). The nine-pellet frangible load created a 10-by-12.5-inch pattern with a 16-inch diameter. Our shooting impressions were very positive when the proper technique was utilized. The #4 load produced the sharpest recoil, while both reduced-recoil loads were quite easy to shoot.

The WP870 was designed for a specific close-protection role, and it protected lawmen and bad guys equally.

Bingo. And there you have it. RE-Iterating a point we're all pretty well dialed in on. The sole usefulness of the device. Compact, often concealable, transportable instant firepower for military, paramilitary, and LEO operations on the move.

Now, raise your hand if you are getting a shockwave for military, paramilitary, and LEO operations.

Again, I may acquire one as a novelty but the purpose for which it's primary design/market is does not suit most users.

*From a legal standpoint, I find it odd and absurd that the Miller Court in US v. Miller found that the short barreled shotgun is not protected under the 2A b/c it has no military application. Heck the application is almost entirely military going back to the blunderbus... I digress.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:31 PM
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Whatever name you put on it, LEO, Mil, etc... the point is the thing was made to put holes in bad guys. Which it would do well.
The 00 buck produced very decent patterns at 15 yards, I doubt an 18 inch barrel would be much tighter.
Velocity won't be that different either. Shotgun shells tend to burn off very quickly. I should chrono the Shockwave, my 18" S&W, and my 28" Winnie and see what the difference is.

The shooting position in the article is reminiscent of a stocked gun hold, and I've shot mine that way a bunch. But I've also shot it other ways and I've had good success with that too. It's one reason I replaced the front sight to a Big Dot, easier to pick up when off sightline.

I get it, it's not a do-all and you don't like it. But as has been said, you might have a different opinion if you spent any time with one. Maybe not, but who knows.

I did buy mine as basically a toy, a thumb in the eye of the alphabet bureau... but once I started using it I gained understanding.
I shoot enough, pistols, rifles, standard shotguns, I'm not naive to the limitations or whatever of any of them.
That being said, in practice the Shockwave has fewer limitations than are being argued, and I would posit is very capable of doing anything shotgun related short of wing shooting.
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Old 01-16-2019, 08:50 AM
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Physics says my wife and 15 year old kid can shoot it just fine eye level aimed shots with full power ammo. Neither have ever complained about your cooked up claims.

But I’m supposed to be like oh gee whiz, you know so much, I better shelve it, no one can hit anything with it, your video even says so......

You need to start feeding your unicorn a different brand of glitter.
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:21 AM
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I picked up a .410 Shockwave on a Saturday.
Shot it yesterday.
This thing is hilarious.
Hilarious as in fun.

To those asking what use these things are for get the little .410 and you’ll see.
I have no desire to shoot another one in 12ga, not after playing around with the .410.

Now I need to find a .410 reloading press...
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:24 AM
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Israel, you can do a pretty adequate job with .410 using the little Lee hand setup. And that one will put away in a Crown Royal bag and stash in the backpack. I've used my .45-70 dies in the press to load 'em for my SIL's little double barrel that takes the short shell.

I'm looking at the grip shape for a muzzle loader project I have in the works, and

https://palmettostatearmory.com/medi.../2/52396_1.jpg
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:37 PM
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those little 410 shells with the disks in them are bad arse they blow rattle snakes into pieces.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:19 PM
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I picked up a .410 Shockwave on a Saturday.
Shot it yesterday.
This thing is hilarious.
Hilarious as in fun.

To those asking what use these things are for get the little .410 and you’ll see.
I have no desire to shoot another one in 12ga, not after playing around with the .410.

Now I need to find a .410 reloading press...


I'm happy you finally got one. Did ya manage to obtain a used one?

Prices for new are equivalent to the 12ga version, locally. It's unfortunate.

You'll have to give us a mini review in a few weeks ( after some 'range time' ). I am very interested in this particular firearm.

(I enjoy the tac14 in 12ga but it's a bit much for wife to handle)
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:01 PM
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I'm happy you finally got one. Did ya manage to obtain a used one?

Prices for new are equivalent to the 12ga version, locally. It's unfortunate.

You'll have to give us a mini review in a few weeks ( after some 'range time' ). I am very interested in this particular firearm.

(I enjoy the tac14 in 12ga but it's a bit much for wife to handle)
One of the local megashops had them on sale for $299 so I decided to treat myself.
Trying to find one used was proving futile.

I just ordered some buck rounds from Cabelas.
We were shooting some 7 1/2’s at about 25’ and this thing was surprisingly accurate for what we’re were blasting at, one of those reflective highway construction markers that they sit in a lane to block it off.

After blasting it from the hip and going about 4 feet high I quickly figured out how to keep the muzzle lower when “aiming” from the hip.
After dialing it in it was surprisingly easy to point shot.

Holding it sorta like one would hold a handgun and using the bead to aim was easy.
No recoil.
One handed shooting again was easy but also funny.

But seriously I think combined with a pistol brace this would be a handy little gun to shoot and would bump it up out of just the range toy category.

The gun itself:
The heavy barrel makes it seem a little “tougher”, well as tough as a .410 can get I suppose.
It’s light, well not handgun light but way lighter than a 12ga Shockwave.
The action is stiff, I’m sure it will get broken in.
I did notice that loading it was a little tricky compared to a 12. The opening in the receiver is large and obviously the .410 round is not. So it’s not as smooth loading as a 12. I got the hang of it but the small overall size of the gun makes it a little weird.
I wouldn’t plan on doing many tactical reloads but then I’m not a real shotgun enthusiast either.

I plan on taking it this weekend with some slugs and try it on paper.
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I tried the rubber grip thing (inner tube) on my Shockwave when I first got it. Took half an hour struggle to get it on, and by round #6 in the first tube after, it was all the way up around the safety.

I ended up stippling both the grip and fore-end. Made a major difference in stopping the gun from moving around in my hands when firing.

I would think if you went with wood, and good, sharp checkering job would be your best bet.
did you turn the inner tube inside out before installing?
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:53 PM
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did you turn the inner tube inside out before installing?
Yup. Rinsed all the powder and Slime off too.

I've tried inner tubes on things in the past and never really found them to work very well. They just aren't sticky or aggressive enough for me.

So far, of everything I've tried, stippling has worked best for anything plastic, and lasted the longest.

If I can't stipple it, skateboard tape has been the next best thing.
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