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View Poll Results: Is the phrase 'Hate The Sin; Love the Sinner' accurate doctrine
Yes 11 61.11%
No 7 38.89%
Don't Know 0 0%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-22-2018, 10:39 PM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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I agree to a degree! Our example, Jesus Christ, used to stand in the face of the religious elite of His day and call them "children of their father the devil" and "a brood of vipers." He told them if they rejected Him that they were condemned. So there is a line that Christ seemed to draw where false doctrine/teaching and religious heresy are concerned.
I agree. But I also don't believe that means He didn't love them either.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:19 AM
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A little Scripture sped up a bit: All have sinned. This simply means breaking Gods Laws or commandments. But it has consequences. It started in the Garden of Eden when Satan deceived Eve into violating one of God's commands. She got her husband Adam in on the deal and the result was expulsion, spiritual death and the murder of one of their sons by the other and on and on throughout history. It then has passed down to each of us to one extent or another. He who says he has not sinned is a liar.

Our sin separates us from God the Word says. God loved his creation (us) however and had a plan by which Jesus would accept and pay our debt to provide a means of reconciliation with God himself. So "as Christians" we are reconciled to God through Jesus Death and Resurrection and our identity with him. Most of mankind however is still living under the curse of separation from God because of our natural rebellion against just about everything including God we stubbornly just say no thanks, I don't need it. And that is not what God wants for us but we are super bull headed people.

I want to give you a word picture. Suppose we were talking about your beloved children and some pusher came into the neighborhood and got them strung out on Meth. And they had the addiction so bad that they were lying, stealing, robbing people and even selling their own bodies for just one more fix. It was so bad that tough love was the only possibility in your relationship.

Would you as a parent still love your child? I know I would. Would you simply accept the addiction? Is it a big deal if this crap is going to kill them eventually? It sure is to me. So I would love my child and hate their addiction which separates them not only from me but puts them at odds with the rest of their community and the addiction will likely kill them soon or land them in prison.

Jesus was often criticized by most of the religious leaders of his day because he spent most of his time with his disciples who were the rough and uneducated red necks, Dock workers, etc of that day. He also spent a lot of times with the kind of people you certainly don't want your kids spending time with. He went down town amid the empty wine bottles and smell of **** and puke in the alleys, you name it they were there. Hookers, addicts, wino’s beggars, thieves, gang-bangers, punks and so on. In all this time he never compromised his own morality but truly loved these people while hating their very sin, or flesh as the Apostle Paul put it. He shared how God loved them and was to provide a way for them to once again become forgiven their sin and become clean spiritually and morally. That it would be freely given to anybody who would sincerely accept it. They recognized him as a Godly man who spent his time with them while the religious leaders of the day wouldn't even walk on the same side of the street.

So from a Christian point of view, our Lord Jesus loves sinners like me and you, reaches out to us in our sin and rebellion, slapped me up side the head a few times (needed by the way) but hated our sin. I hope that helps a bit. OK? God Bless.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:06 AM
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Well, at this point, the voting stands at 50-50.

This shows how that it is impossible to be right when half the population think you are wrong. I guess that's what makes this business of choosing so precarious. If a politician were to stick his finger in the air to see which way the wind was blowing, he wouldn't know what would make his constituents happy. Very interesting!
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
I agree to a degree! Our example, Jesus Christ, used to stand in the face of the religious elite of His day and call them "children of their father the devil" and "a brood of vipers." He told them if they rejected Him that they were condemned. So there is a line that Christ seemed to draw where false doctrine/teaching and religious heresy are concerned.
One time, some monks wished to test Abba Agathon, knowing that he took great care to not let anything disturb him. When they came to him they accused him of pride and debauchery. Agathon’s only response was, “Yes, it is so.” Then, in order to further try him, they accused him of being Agathon, the lover of slander. Again, Agathon’s response was, “I am he.” Finally, they railed against him the accusation that he was a heretic, to which he answered simply, “I am not a heretic.” Perplexed, his accusers asked him why he agreed with the first two accusations, but not the last. Agathon responded, “The first things I accepted, since they were beneficial for my soul; but not the accusation that I am a heretic, since heresy is separation from God.”
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
If it is a nothing burger, why do 2 of 3 disagree? Allow me to hypothesis.

Sin is a verb. It is but a consequence of the mind that choose such action. Therefore, sin is but the effect. The cause to be hated is within the nature of man. To parse "sin" from "sinner" is a fools errand. Science advances precisely because it properly connects effect to cause.

Having said that, I agree Hate The Sin, Love the Sinner perfectly fits the mandate of Christ, which is why I was somewhat surprised to read some castigate the phrase.

Good points. Here's a good biblical summation of God's relationship to them who have consciously chosen to reject Him and His Word and His ways:


Romans 1:24-32,
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."


It doesn't sound as though God has a great deal of love for these folks (homosexuals and other sexual deviants).
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:07 AM
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And in every instance quoted, there is still no evidence that says that God did not love the person. Just because we have the obvious capacity to hate doesn't mean God must.

God loves everything He created, even Satan.

God loves all of us, even when we sin or blaspheme or ignore Him. He gave us Free Will so we MUST CHOOSE to love Him back. You cannot force someone to love you. When we exercise that free will to do evil without final repentance, God is certainly sad to see it, and sad to send us to the place we have freely chosen to spend eternity, but He never stops loving us.

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Cabinet Maker View Post
And in every instance quoted, there is still no evidence that says that God did not love the person. Just because we have the obvious capacity to hate doesn't mean God must.

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?
Because it does not square with us, who have such capacity to hate, being made in God's likeness + sending people to hell. Evidence that God must hate is sending us to hell under any circumstances whatsoever. Sending people to hell is the ultimate example of hate.

Therefore, I reject it entirely. If you are sending someone to hell, we are no longer talking about hate for the sin they chose to commit but hatred for the sinner: not merely unrepentant; not merely "missing the mark" but knowing evil and choosing it over good.



There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
1. Haughty eyes,
2. a lying tongue,
3. And hands that shed innocent blood,
4. A heart that devises wicked plans,
5. Feet that run rapidly to evil,
6. A false witness who utters lies,
And
7. one who spreads strife among brothers.

Proverbs 6:16-19
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:09 PM
esheldon esheldon is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Because it does not square with us, who have such capacity to hate, being made in God's likeness + sending people to hell. Evidence that God must hate is sending us to hell under any circumstances whatsoever. Sending people to hell is the ultimate example of hate.

Therefore, I reject it entirely. If you are sending someone to hell, we are no longer talking about hate for the sin they chose to commit but hatred for the sinner: not merely unrepentant; not merely "missing the mark" but knowing evil and choosing it over good.



There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
1. Haughty eyes,
2. a lying tongue,
3. And hands that shed innocent blood,
4. A heart that devises wicked plans,
5. Feet that run rapidly to evil,
6. A false witness who utters lies,
And
7. one who spreads strife among brothers.

Proverbs 6:16-19
Yet, He sent His only begotten Son to die for even the people who commit those 7 things, so if they repent they may have life.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:42 PM
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Because it does not square with us, who have such capacity to hate, being made in God's likeness + sending people to hell. Evidence that God must hate is sending us to hell under any circumstances whatsoever. Sending people to hell is the ultimate example of hate.

Therefore, I reject it entirely. If you are sending someone to hell, we are no longer talking about hate for the sin they chose to commit but hatred for the sinner: not merely unrepentant; not merely "missing the mark" but knowing evil and choosing it over good.
No hair off my chest. I can understand such a position, but it presupposes a "third party" mentality, where you decide that, based on your human logic and experience, a God would not act a certain way.

If God created us, and set some really simple and basic rules for us to live by, which if followed, guaranteed eternal bliss...the alternative being eternal separation and suffering, why would you not want to follow those rules? You conclude that there should be an "opt out" option for those who either don't agree with the ground rules or conclude that God "just couldn't be the loving God we believe in and send people to Hell".

Look at it this way. Your life is reduced/simplified to a casino bet. You bet everything you own on on 00 on the roulette wheel. You either win huge and are assured of happiness forever, or you are assured of destitution and pain forever.
The difference here, of course, is that you have the ability to either make every slot on the wheel a double ought, or something else. You control the outcome. You don't get to leave the casino before the bet. You don't get to choose an alternate game. So your following clear rules set out Millenia ago makes the wheel all double zeroes.

Scripture and Tradition are really clear on both history and the requirements to fulfill God's plan for us. That you or anyone else choose to disbelieve such is your decision, the ultimate proof of course, will occur when we leave this mortal plain. (But there is prophecy along with Scripture which allude to possible chances to recant and/or profess final belief and acceptance. Different discussion and thread material.)

I reiterate again. You are free to choose your destination. You are not free to decide whether you wish to choose. If God doesn't exist, at least in the form believed through the Bible, then you (and all of us) have nothing to worry about, right? If, however, the God of the Bible is true, do you think you will have sufficient explanation to mitigate your fate?


There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
1. Haughty eyes,
2. a lying tongue,
3. And hands that shed innocent blood,
4. A heart that devises wicked plans,
5. Feet that run rapidly to evil,
6. A false witness who utters lies,
And
7. one who spreads strife among brothers.

Proverbs 6:16-19
[/QUOTE]

Last edited by Cabinet Maker; 05-23-2018 at 11:14 PM.. Reason: Clarity
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:24 AM
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No hair off my chest.
Good to know.

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I can understand such a position, but it presupposes a "third party" mentality, where you decide that, based on your human logic and experience, a God would not act a certain way.
False Alternative. As if there is some other way a human can successfully function outside of human logic and experience.

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You are free to choose your destination.
Please site that verse in scripture. If what you are saying is true, then Jesus life and death serves no purpose. I make this explicit because many Christians deny the choice the God of the Bible made in damning humans as the default. Sure, sure, the Bible offers a "get out of jail card." I'm not talking about that; I'm talking about our default destination, unmitigated, with no action on our part, etc.

For the record, I do not believe we are free to choose our destination. There is only one destination, with the Creator, albeit the journey may be longer for some than others.

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If God doesn't exist, at least in the form believed through the Bible, then you (and all of us) have nothing to worry about, right?
Right. Except death.

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If, however, the God of the Bible is true, do you think you will have sufficient explanation to mitigate your fate?
If God of the Bible is true, then he hates per Proverbs 6:16-19, other passages and most significantly, in sending people to hell, by default, and under any circumstances.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:24 AM
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False Alternative. As if there is some other way a human can successfully function outside of human logic and experience.
Lol. You keep trying to put yourself on a par with God. His ways are so above ours. You might be the smartest ant in the ant farm...

Quote:
Please site that verse in scripture. If what you are saying is true, then Jesus life and death serves no purpose. I make this explicit because many Christians deny the choice the God of the Bible made in damning humans as the default. Sure, sure, the Bible offers a "get out of jail card." I'm not talking about that; I'm talking about our default destination, unmitigated, with no action on our part, etc.
Cite that verse in Scripture?? The whole NT revolves around the concept! A rather good one is today's Gospel. You know, the one where Jesus says it's better to put a millstone around your neck and drown than cause a little one to sin? Better to pluck your eye out and go to Heaven maimed than go to Gehenna whole? Cut your offending hand or foot off? Lots of Scripture which enforces the requirement to remain on the straight and narrow.
This world 2,000 years ago was a violent, lawless yet growing place, and even the "chosen people" couldn't keep their own act together. God sent His Son to teach all people a new and novel way to live and coexist with each other. Proving its validity by both living that way, dying that way, and most important, proving this all came from God by his resurrection. He unlocked a hithero locked door, affording the opportunity to all to reach eternal life in Heaven. But the requirements to actually open that door are laid out clearly. If you choose to follow them, you've chosen Heaven. If you choose not to follow them, you've chosen Hell. So since you know of Scripture, Jesus, and those requirements, you are bound by them. So when you decide to not believe and/or deny Christ, you have chosen to not spend eternity with God. (Those that do not know of Jesus are not held to that requirement, but still are judged on their righteousness during life. Another discussion.)

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For the record, I do not believe we are free to choose our destination. There is only one destination, with the Creator, albeit the journey may be longer for some than others.
Cool for you! And I actually sincerely hope you are correct. Maybe God will relent and bring all to Him. But our interaction and understanding of Him comes from Scripture and Tradition, and there are way too many indicators that Hell not only exists, it is the destination of choice for those who choose not to follow the rules. And there is a great chasm between Heaven and Hell.


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Right. Except death.
Everybody dies. With no God, you just go to dreamless sleep. I'd be much more worried about NOT being unaware after death.



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If God of the Bible is true, then he hates per Proverbs 6:16-19, other passages and most significantly, in sending people to hell, by default, and under any circumstances.
Awesome tie-in to the OP! Yes, God hates the Sin !

And for the 3,874th time, you do NOT go to Hell by default. You choose it by your belief and/or actions.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:44 AM
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And for the 3,874th time, you do NOT go to Hell by default. You choose it by your belief and/or actions.
And for the 3,875th time, its 2 choices not 1: where one goes island what one does.

It's like the choice to have or keep or pay for a baby is different from the choice to have sex. Becoming pregnant is a natural consequence from having sex while getting sent to hell is not a natural consequence but the choice another makes. I know you want to pretend they are the same choice.

Are you advocating one can work their way into heaven?
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:39 AM
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And for the 3,875th time, its 2 choices not 1: where one goes island what one does.
I guess either destination could be an island...


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It's like the choice to have or keep or pay for a baby is different from the choice to have sex. Becoming pregnant is a natural consequence from having sex while getting sent to hell is not a natural consequence but the choice another makes. I know you want to pretend they are the same choice.
I'll try again....in the spirit of similes...you are starting from the premise of an equal playing field in a game that has no rule book except what you and others "feel" is right. In actuality, God has written the rule book and owns the field, ball and benches. 1) We have no choice whether to play in the game or not. We must participate. 2) Following God's rule book guarantees you will win. Not following His rules causes your loss. You are completely free to decide whether to follow the rules or not. See how that works? You simply can not ignore the rules set out as you can choose not to have sex. The rules exist. The game must be played. So your "choice" is simply to decide whether you will play by the rules or not, with the ultimate consequences of your "choice" already laid out for you and known by you. So you are choosing your own destination.

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Are you advocating one can work their way into heaven?
Is this a trick question from a non-Christian? Let's have your take first.
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:41 PM
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I guess either destination could be an island....
Doh! I did not catch the auto correct.
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:47 PM
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I'll try again....in the spirit of similes...you are starting from the premise of an equal playing field in a game that has no rule book except what you and others "feel" is right. In actuality, God has written the rule book and owns the field, ball and benches.
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.

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Is this a trick question from a non-Christian? Let's have your take first.
Sorry, that is a cowardly answer. As a universalist, I deny any work is required to get to heaven, beyond ones own willingness to commune with God.
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:29 PM
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Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.
So you don't believe that God wrote the Rules? If so, I agree we'll have to agree to disagree.



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Sorry, that is a cowardly answer. As a universalist, I deny any work is required to get to heaven, beyond ones own willingness to commune with God.
Nothing cowardly about it. Just wanted to narrow down the scope.

So we Christians have a whole bunch of Scripture and Tradition on which we base our belief system. Many words, both in the OT and NT, which seem to indicate otherwise to what you believe.

What's your source?

As to the work question, there are different aspects as well as different definitions. For those who, through no fault of their own, do not know of Jesus and His teachings, they can (I believe) still attain Heaven based on their actions during their lives. So if you equate work with actions, then yes.

If we consider those of us who do know Jesus, belief and faith are both required as well as doing the things that He commanded. So again, if you read the Mandates of Jesus as the equivalent of work, then yes again, work is required.

I've asked this before, but I will admit I didn't figure it out by myself.

OF course, coming from Scripture, you may or may not accept the validity , but there is only one Scripture where Jesus specifically says what you must do to achieve everlasting life. Do you know it?










Matthew 25 31-46


I certainly consider what He said that we must do is "work".
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:08 PM
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Peter Energy et al; By sinner I am assuming the OP means a "lost" person. One who is not saved, or had their sins forgiven by trusting in the Lord Jesus Christs's death, burial and resurrection. The lost person would be the one referenced in John 3:18 below. The one who has not believed.

Joh 3:16* For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*
Joh 3:17* For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.*
Joh 3:18* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.*

God says very clearly in the Bible that sin is wrong and punishable by death. The first 7 chapters of Romans are great for understanding this. Psalms 7:11 says God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
The wicked in this case would be the lost person or non believer in verse 18 above. This is like a parent loving the child but being angry at them for their wicked behavior.

God hates sin and has made the punishment unbearable. God loves mankind and has made the solution to the sin problem easy. The punishment has already been paid and administered. Simply believe that Jesus Christ is God's son, died on the cross for your sin and rose (resurrected) from the grave. If you are willing to do this you can escape the punishment thru God's Son Jesus Christ's love for you. If you refuse you will be condenmned to Hell. God loves you and made a way for you to escape the punishment. You would be a fool not to take it.

I am not referring to anybody specifically when I use the word you. It is an indefinite pronoun meaning anybody in this case.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:52 PM
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Cite that verse in Scripture?? The whole NT revolves around the concept!
I'll take that as a no. There is no scripture to support what you are saying.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:54 PM
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Peter Energy et al; By sinner I am assuming the OP means a "lost" person. One who is not saved, or had their sins forgiven by trusting in the Lord Jesus Christs's death, burial and resurrection.
I did not mean to limit the OP to a type of sinner. Just out of curiosity, what categories of sinners do you suppose there are?
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:03 PM
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So you don't believe that God wrote the Rules? If so, I agree we'll have to agree to disagree.
Good. We've agreed to disagree.

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What's your source?
My source is my experience, my belief system and my relationship to all things. What is your source, parchment?

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but there is only one Scripture where Jesus specifically says what you must do to achieve everlasting life, e.g., Matthew 25 31-46

I certainly consider what He said that we must do is "work".
So, in your view doing these things - feeding the hungry, etc, and not faith in the grace of Jesus - leads to salvation?
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