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Old 06-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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This question was in part discussed in another thread. I thought I would put a little perspective on the topic. The below comes from the page at https://www.christiancourier.com/art...n-rahabs-lying. Written by Wayne Jackson. I have edited it some what for brevity.

The narrative regarding the Canaanite, whose name was Rahab, in no way sanctions lying. There are several factors that must be taken into account in examining the Old Testament record.

First, one would not even know of this event were it not for the fact that it is revealed in the biblical documents. This is a clue as to the candidness and integrity of the sacred account. Scripture makes no effort to conceal the episode.

Second, Rahab’s lie is never condoned anywhere in the Bible text. The New Testament writers certainly do not claim that she was “justified” by her misrepresentation of the facts regarding the Hebrew spies.

Third, lying is uniformly condemned throughout the Bible (see Leviticus 19:11; Proverbs 6:16-19; Ephesians 4:25; Revelation 21:8).

The case of Rahab is an example of God honoring a person due to her obedient faith — in spite of a personal character flaw.

Rahab was a Canaanite, an ancient body of pagans that inhabited Palestine at the time Israel entered the land in the 15th century before Christ. They were a grossly wicked people, steeped in idolatry and immorality. They even sacrificed their children on occasion as offerings to their gods. By profession, Rahab was a “harlot,” and the scriptures make no attempt to hide that unsavory lifestyle. Read the narrative recorded in Joshua 2:1-11.

This woman had come to believe in the true God and his power to deliver. She was of a different temperament than her heathen neighbors. Accordingly, when the spies from Israel approached her, she was not “disobedient,” as the others of Jericho who would perish in their pagan corruption. Rather, she, through faith in Jehovah, received the spies in peace (Hebrews 11:31), hid them, and sent them out another way (James 2:25).

Admittedly she lied in the process of hiding the spies, and that was wrong. But her faith and obedience allowed her to obtain pardon from her blemished history.


There are many characters in the Bible that were honored by God who exhibited character flaws. David, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samson, Peter, John Mark./ This is another clue that salvation is based on faith and not works.

Last edited by pinkerpv; 06-18-2019 at 08:36 PM.. Reason: accuracy for verse 2: 1-11
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Old 06-16-2019, 03:20 PM
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I remember this being discussed in college. (I attended a Bible college....soooo much like this was discussed, lol. If I have to hear one more argument about calvinism, I might poke a fork thru my own heart. Oops, that's prolly a lie...albeit in an exaggeration.)

I remember, too, I think it was Corrie Ten Boom's sister or sister in law (or cousin?) refused to lie to the nazi's about hiding Jews, as she did NOT want to lie....and when she pointed to the floor, that the Jews were hiding under....the nazis thought she was nuts. So in her hard held belief to not lie, she and those she was hiding were still kept safe. (She wasn't against hiding them, and didn't want anyone found....she just could not justify telling a lie.)

I'm not as sensitive to throwing out a lie in a needed time....and wouldn't be guilt ridden over telling a lie to the nazis or to those seeking the jewish spies. My brother....oh, he'd spend yrs worrying about that one lie he told. (Though I have become sensitive to lying/not lying to those around me....and with so little practice at it....I'm not good at it like I was as a teen/early adult....when I practiced it quite alot. I was quite the liar in my day, and it's not something I choose to continue to walk in....I much rather walk in truth...speaking it and sharing it and living it.)
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:26 PM
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Rahab lodged travelers in her home, as an inn keeper.

She was a single woman who was head of her household.

The Hebrew words 'qâdêsh' or 'pórnē' are both used for prostitute, and neither of these words is used to describe Rahab.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:18 PM
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Rahab lodged travelers in her home, as an inn keeper.

She was a single woman who was head of her household.

The Hebrew words 'qâdêsh' or 'pórnē' are both used for prostitute, and neither of these words is used to describe Rahab.
This thread is about lying not the oldest profession.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:14 PM
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Second, Rahab’s lie is never condoned anywhere in the Bible text.
LOL Lying (especially by omission) is condoned throughout Scripture. In the beginning, God did not tell Adam and Eve they would spiritually die if they ate the forbidden fruit but physically die 9 centuries later. (IF it were literally and immediately true, only Eve would have died for Adam would have known who was telling the truth and who was lying). Just think, the first man and woman were so unconvinced of the voice of God speaking the truth, they believed a talking snake! Let me say it again; Satan told the literal truth and God did not.

Jesus repeatedly forbade his disciples from telling people he was the Messiah AND he repeatedly gave evasive answers to this very question. I already mentioned Abraham lying twice about his sister really being his wife and Jacob and his mother lying to Abraham to cheat Esau from the first born blessing. Since these were not explicitly condemned, they are implicitly condoned.

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Third, lying is uniformly condemned throughout the Bible
LOL. Except for when it is not. There are many other examples in Scripture of lying being condoned. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, which is deception of his own judgment. Joseph lied to his brothers, not telling him who he was. In Judges 7, God deceived Gideon's enemies to fight each other. In 1 Samuel 19:17, Saul is tricked by Michal, who lies in saying if she didn't David would kill her. God Himself wrestled with Israel all night, not telling him who he was wrestling with. Jesus said the temple would be rebuilt in 3 days, pretending like everyone knows 'the temple' was his body and not "The Temple" Solomon built.

The Muslims are much more honest about the virtues of lying. If it glorifies Allah, lying is good. Throughout the New Testament, they write the 2nd coming is 'soon.' Repent for the end is near is a common deceptive expression. Soon > 2,000 years later. That'd probably get most men in trouble with their wife's when hanging out at the bar with their friends. No, honey, I meant 'Biblically soon.'

Rahab was honored for her lie, being in the lineage of the King of Kings in Matthew 1:5. Rahab and the spies commentaries:
The conduct of Rahab proved that she had the real principle of Divine faith.
Rahab had the real principle of Divine faith - proved by her lying. You keep on believing the Bible always condemns lying and never condones it.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:15 PM
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This thread is about lying not the oldest profession.
So it is exactly on topic.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:30 PM
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Oh, I forgot, David lied about being crazy in 1 Samuel 21:13. Where is that condemned?

I cannot believe Matthew 13:13 did not jump out to me. Jesus spoke in parables so that unbelievers would not understand. That's very high on the deceptive, lying scale ... Imagine teens talking to parents. Well, I talk this way so you won't understand. That would be the very height of virtuous confession.

Last edited by PeterEnergy; 06-17-2019 at 05:49 PM.. Reason: Parables
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:31 PM
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... If I have to hear one more argument about calvinism ...
I don't know about calvinism, beyond Predestination. How does this tie into lying?
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:43 AM
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LOL Lying (especially by omission) is condoned throughout Scripture. In the beginning, God did not tell Adam and Eve they would spiritually die if they ate the forbidden fruit but physically die 9 centuries later. (IF it were literally and immediately true, only Eve would have died for Adam would have known who was telling the truth and who was lying). Just think, the first man and woman were so unconvinced of the voice of God speaking the truth, they believed a talking snake! Let me say it again; Satan told the literal truth and God did not.
You keep repeating this lie.

Whether or not Rahab's was justified, yours is not.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:37 PM
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God did NOT lie to Adam and Eve. When they ate of the fruit, they DID die. It wasn't an omission. It can be one's assumption that it was to be a physical death, but God knew what He meant when He said death. It was a worse death than a physical death, because spiritual death means forever separated from God. And then He made a way to become alive again...via the second Adam, who was Christ Jesus....and thru His sinless life and death and victory over sin and death and His resurrection.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:40 PM
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The calvinism was just a comment about religious discussions at college. Not meant to be a part of this. The Rahab lying question was one that was discussed as well at college...along with many other religious back and forth questions/arguments/discussions/wonderings. Thinking about the Rahab questionings made me remember the endless calvinism arguments is all. And that made me groan, lol
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
You keep repeating this lie.

Whether or not Rahab's was justified, yours is not.
It is not a lie. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit yet did not die, as God literally said, on that day.

Imagine if I told my fiancé, the day I get a raise, we can set a wedding date but 9 centuries after my raise, she's still waiting. LOL


Beware: the day you eat the fruit of this tree, you will certainly die.
Genesis 2:17 The Voice (VOICE)
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:03 PM
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The comment comes to mind (because of the death discussion)...Jesus did not come to make bad people good. He came to make dead people ALIVE! Those who do not believe in Christ as their Savior and Lord are spiritually dead (they are dead in their trespasses and sins). By accepting Christ, they are made new....they are made alive.

Jesus spoke in parables so that those who were spiritually minded would wonder and question and push for more. Which is what the disciples did. What the gentile woman did (the talking about crumbs for dogs story). What Nicodemus did. What Peter did. What I do. If someone has ears to hear....they WILL hear, and they will take that which they do not understand and ask God for more understanding. Jesus WANTED people to have ears to hear....but He also knew that many didn't care. Maybe the story would stick around....and later someone would remember...and wonder. Stories stick with us. He wasn't trying to keep unbelievers from Himself....He was trying to make them wonder and ask AND SEEK GOD.

As far as Jesus not wanting others to say He was Messiah....that was a treasonous and blasphemous thing to say. If the Roman govt heard...it would be thought that He was trying to set up as King. If the jewish leaders heard, it would be against their belief of God, and they would consider Him to be blasphemous. Also....He wanted God the Father to REVEAL His Messiah-ship to others. So they would know from God. So they wouldn't be following some schmuck who said he was messiah....but they would be following the One whom GOD said was Messiah.

And all the arguments of the Bible "condoning" lying. Nope. The Bible is full of real people who chose to say and do real things. It would be like my life, written about....I've lied at times. Those lies might be included. Those lies were sinful. Always. They weren't godly. But in telling the story of my life, it would include my sinfulness. And in telling the stories of men and women in the Bible....it included their lying. Not to be condoned....but as a realization that those were real people with real struggles and real sinfulness. The lies USUALLY also came along with consequences afterwards. Jacob's lies caused issues within his parents/brother relationship....and also with his wives and children. Abram/Abraham's lies about Sarah caused great problems within the nations where he lied. God protected Sarah/Sarai....but it could have been disasterous. His fear was greater than the protection of his wife....to the point where she could've been raped... He preferred his wife's rape to telling the truth and maybe getting killed. Not the kind of man I would want to be married to....

Rahab wasn't honored because of her lie! She was honored because she, as a pagan, chose to believe and trust in God as HER God. Her life changed, and she followed God, instead of the idols and gods of her people. THAT was the faith she was honored for. As far as the lineage of Jesus....it was full of people who sinned. She was a sinner, too.
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:06 PM
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It is not a lie. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit yet did not die, as God literally said, on that day.

Imagine if I told my fiancé, the day I get a raise, we can set a wedding date but 9 centuries after my raise, she's still waiting. LOL


Beware: the day you eat the fruit of this tree, you will certainly die.
Genesis 2:17 The Voice (VOICE)
They did die immediately. I would prefer to die physically, and immediately go to heaven with God....than to die spiritually, and be forever separated from God. Just because as humans we assume the word die meant physically....that doesn't mean it is what was meant. We put too much of ourselves into what we think of God and of His words.
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:08 PM
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No assumption. No death on the day as stated. Now, if you want to later add He meant "spiritual" death, THAT is the lie of omission.
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:30 PM
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So they were alive? Alive in sin? Vs the alive they were prior....in constant direct communication before God? No, they were dead in their trespasses and sin. Sin caused death. It's just not physical death.

It's not a lie of omission. When I tell my kids to do something or there will be consequences, and the consequences aren't exactly the nature that they assumed them to be....that doesn't mean I lied to them. It might mean they didn't understand me fully....their understanding was only in part.

God gave them alllllll the flowering, fruit bearing trees in the garden. Adam and Eve's lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life was what did them in. They believed the liar, satan, over the freedom given to them by God.
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:53 PM
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And the lie satan told them, and they believed, was that they, too, could be like God and know everything. God doesn't show us everything. He tells us things, parts of things, and by our faith we should walk in what He tells us. Not knowing all that is ahead. When I lost my babies....I didn't know how to live another minute.....another moment....another day. I had to believe in the only part that I could....that God was big enough to carry me through that pain. I knew nothing else, but that God was all I had. I could've easily believed the lies....that God didn't love me and that's why He took my babies. Or that it was my fault. Or that some sin on my part is what caused their death. Or that God loves death. Or that God hates me. Or that I should no longer follow God because He was evil and He took those babies from me....on and on and on with lies I could've believed. But I chose to be ALIVE. Even if mourning was THE WORST alive I've ever had. I chose to believe that God is good. I chose to walk through every single day, PRAISING God. I chose to FIND ways to thank God from each and every day. I chose to follow....and obey....even though I could only see in part....even though MY understanding was small. I couldn't see what God had for me ahead. But I COULD CHOOSE to obey what He DID tell me, and what little I DID know. (And adam and eve failed to do this! *I've* failed to do this at times.) He doesn't reveal all things to us, but asks us to obey what He tells us. How God could bring me life and give me LIFE when my heart was shattered to dust, I have no idea....but HE DID. He "omitted" the things that brought me life....omitted from telling me those things. It was never HIM lying. It was always Him giving grace. Grace to step one more inch. Grace to choose to live one more day. Grace to find joy in the day, and in my sacrifices of praise. God doesn't reveal all to me or to anyone....but that is NOT a lie of omission. That is His choice...to tell, to not tell. But adam and eve died that day in a way they never expected....and in a way so much worse than they could've ever imagined. And no, it wasn't a physical death, and no, that was NOT God lying.

You know what else....on the day when my last baby had no heartbeat, and was not even moving on the ultrasound....God graciously DID hide that from me. Not as a lie. But as pure grace...because without realizing that my child was dead....I got 5 minutes of pure wonder! The ultrasound tech rolled over my belly and showed us his hand on top of his head. How he "slept" with his foot up by his face....just as my alive son did for yrs. We saw his face and his hands and his feet. And while him being dead was hidden from me....it was 5 min of sheer joy to see ALL of him, curled up and precious. I appreciate the hiddeness....and and would never consider that a lie. It was so beautiful. The realness hit hard and fast and furious....and lasted far longer than I wanted it to....so the beauty of those 5 min was and is so precious to me. Sometimes things hidden by God grant us something we don't ever want to lose. God WANTED to hide the pain of sin from adam and eve. He WANTED them to never know the separation from Him. To never know what it felt like to be spiritually dead in their sins. Because knowing (and mourning) that death due to our sins isfar worse than any physical death we could feel on this earth. My sins have caused me more pain and agony and mourning than losing my children ever could.
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Old 06-18-2019, 04:33 PM
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If the SS is at my door and Anne Frank is in the attic, I'm not sending her to the concentration camp. I'd be more concerned facing my maker if I did tell the truth in that circumstance. Categorical imperatives don't hold water in real world ethical dilemmas.
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Old 06-18-2019, 05:46 PM
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So they were alive? Alive in sin? Vs the alive they were prior....in constant direct communication before God? No, they were dead in their trespasses and sin. Sin caused death. It's just not physical death.

It's not a lie of omission. When I tell my kids to do something or there will be consequences, and the consequences aren't exactly the nature that they assumed them to be....that doesn't mean I lied to them. It might mean they didn't understand me fully....their understanding was only in part.

God gave them alllllll the flowering, fruit bearing trees in the garden. Adam and Eve's lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life was what did them in. They believed the liar, Satan, over the freedom given to them by God.
You don't understand Peter. He hates the Christian God and now he just made himself a new goal of proving to you that God is a liar.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:36 PM
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And the lie satan told them, and they believed, was that they, too, could be like God and know everything. God doesn't show us everything. He tells us things, parts of things, and by our faith we should walk in what He tells us. Not knowing all that is ahead. When I lost my babies....I didn't know how to live another minute.....another moment....another day. I had to believe in the only part that I could....that God was big enough to carry me through that pain. I knew nothing else, but that God was all I had. I could've easily believed the lies....that God didn't love me and that's why He took my babies. Or that it was my fault. Or that some sin on my part is what caused their death. Or that God loves death. Or that God hates me. Or that I should no longer follow God because He was evil and He took those babies from me....on and on and on with lies I could've believed. But I chose to be ALIVE. Even if mourning was THE WORST alive I've ever had. I chose to believe that God is good. I chose to walk through every single day, PRAISING God. I chose to FIND ways to thank God from each and every day. I chose to follow....and obey....even though I could only see in part....even though MY understanding was small. I couldn't see what God had for me ahead. But I COULD CHOOSE to obey what He DID tell me, and what little I DID know. (And adam and eve failed to do this! *I've* failed to do this at times.) He doesn't reveal all things to us, but asks us to obey what He tells us. How God could bring me life and give me LIFE when my heart was shattered to dust, I have no idea....but HE DID. He "omitted" the things that brought me life....omitted from telling me those things. It was never HIM lying. It was always Him giving grace. Grace to step one more inch. Grace to choose to live one more day. Grace to find joy in the day, and in my sacrifices of praise. God doesn't reveal all to me or to anyone....but that is NOT a lie of omission. That is His choice...to tell, to not tell. But adam and eve died that day in a way they never expected....and in a way so much worse than they could've ever imagined. And no, it wasn't a physical death, and no, that was NOT God lying.

You know what else....on the day when my last baby had no heartbeat, and was not even moving on the ultrasound....God graciously DID hide that from me. Not as a lie. But as pure grace...because without realizing that my child was dead....I got 5 minutes of pure wonder! The ultrasound tech rolled over my belly and showed us his hand on top of his head. How he "slept" with his foot up by his face....just as my alive son did for yrs. We saw his face and his hands and his feet. And while him being dead was hidden from me....it was 5 min of sheer joy to see ALL of him, curled up and precious. I appreciate the hiddeness....and and would never consider that a lie. It was so beautiful. The realness hit hard and fast and furious....and lasted far longer than I wanted it to....so the beauty of those 5 min was and is so precious to me. Sometimes things hidden by God grant us something we don't ever want to lose. God WANTED to hide the pain of sin from adam and eve. He WANTED them to never know the separation from Him. To never know what it felt like to be spiritually dead in their sins. Because knowing (and mourning) that death due to our sins isfar worse than any physical death we could feel on this earth. My sins have caused me more pain and agony and mourning than losing my children ever could.
What an amazing testimony, God bless you JenFred!!
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