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Old 04-28-2019, 07:01 PM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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Originally Posted by ColoradoMinuteMan View Post
My observation of history is that it's been the exact opposite. 150 years ago large game hunters were using incredibly inefficient large bore cartridges such as .44-40, .50-70, .45-70, .50-90, then gradually evolved to more efficient cartridges .30-40 Krag .30-30, .30-06 then .270, .300 Savage, .308 Win, .243 then evolving to even more efficiency our of common actions 7mm-08, 6.5 Creedmor, now trying to maximize performance of platform and mission specific cartridges 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .300 BLK.

If anything, it seems like the market is currently saying "no, you don't need grandpa's long action." I'm not sure why some people get their panties in a wad over firearm companies trying to turn a profit by developing new products. I'm guessing you also prefer to make popcorn in a tinfoil pan on the stove and you're ****ed that pickups now get 16 MPG.
if your argument hinges on the assumption that i use, or carry 100+ year old black powder cartridges, then you have failed
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:30 PM
ColoradoMinuteMan ColoradoMinuteMan is offline
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if your argument hinges on the assumption that i use, or carry 100+ year old black powder cartridges, then you have failed
Failed at what?
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Old 04-28-2019, 07:53 PM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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Failed at what?
at your assertion that i use or have any interest in those cartridges, i said they'll drop deer just fine and its completely asinine for the 6.8 fanboys to claim a 5.56 wont
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:43 PM
ColoradoMinuteMan ColoradoMinuteMan is offline
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at your assertion that i use or have any interest in those cartridges, i said they'll drop deer just find and its completely asinine for the 6.8 fanboys to claim a 5.56 wont
I did not make that assertion

I'm curious, how do you think .223 is for caribou, elk, moose, hogs, bison, mountain lion, black bear, brown bear, polar bear?
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Old 04-28-2019, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoMinuteMan View Post
I did not make that assertion

I'm curious, how do you think .223 is for caribou, elk, moose, hogs, bison, mountain lion, black bear, brown bear, polar bear?
I wouldn't believe he has ever hunted anything on the list above, called him out on it in another thread, and found the truth in about 2 posts. After that, he is back on the ignore list.

Agree with you completely in regards to your earlier posts and how cartridges have evolved into better / more efficient/ and finally more selective per tasks that maximize thier capabilities.

Out of your list, I have dumped caribou, elk, bison, black and brown bear , along with truck loads of hogs over 45 plus years. As with most rifle cartridges, shot placement, distance to target, angle of target at impact, and bullet selection are the dominate players.

Since I live in a place that is litterly over run with hogs, I actively eradicate them with any legal means via firearms that this place allows. 223 being capable .Long story short, it is not efficient enough for consistent eradication. Including the new all copper bullets.

Therefore, I dont use it for big bears, bou, elk, bison, or moose.....in which I have successfully used an 18.5 inch bbl 308 to hunt them with.

On a side note: The very few bison I have taken left much to be desired. One hit thru the head and down they went...instantly.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have not been that impressed with M885A1 via several categories. On the flip side, M80A1 is a whole other animal. M855A1 failed to meet the org requirements, so big green simply changed them so that it could meet the new ones. M80A1 not only succeeded, but surpassed them in all respects.


To add to your other post......I could have killed this Colorado muley with a rock if that was the plan. ( Inside of 10 inches). Even thou it could have been done, I wouldn't call rocks a very efficient deer slayer..... Especially when compared to a more modern cartridge such as 7mm08. From first hand experience, I would say that it is every bit as capable as 308 so far as hunting goes.
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Old 04-28-2019, 09:30 PM
ColoradoMinuteMan ColoradoMinuteMan is offline
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That's an impressive list of game. I haven't had nearly that game experience as you have but I agree human factors will always be the greatest differentiator. If the shooter knows and operates within the limitations of the cartridge, nearly any will work.

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Originally Posted by fragout View Post
I wouldn't believe he has ever hunted anything on the list above, called him out on it in another thread, and found the truth in about 2 posts. After that, he is back on the ignore list.

Agree with you completely in regards to your earlier posts and how cartridges have evolved into better / more efficient/ and finally more selective per tasks that maximize thier capabilities.

Out of your list, I have dumped caribou, elk, bison, black and brown bear , along with truck loads of hogs over 45 plus years. As with most rifle cartridges, shot placement, distance to target, angle of target at impact, and bullet selection are the dominate players.

Since I live in a place that is litterly over run with hogs, I actively eradicate them with any legal means via firearms that this place allows. 223 being capable .Long story short, it is not efficient enough for consistent eradication. Including the new all copper bullets.

Therefore, I dont use it for big bears, bou, elk, bison, or moose.....in which I have successfully used an 18.5 inch bbl 308 to hunt them with.

On a side note: The very few bison I have taken left much to be desired. One hit thru the head and down they went...instantly.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have not been that impressed with M885A1 via several categories. On the flip side, M80A1 is a whole other animal. M855A1 failed to meet the org requirements, so big green simply changed them so that it could meet the new ones. M80A1 not only succeeded, but surpassed them in all respects.


To add to your other post......I could have killed this Colorado muley with a rock if that was the plan. ( Inside of 10 inches). Even thou it could have been done, I wouldn't call rocks a very efficient deer slayer..... Especially when compared to a more modern cartridge such as 7mm08. From first hand experience, I would say that it is every bit as capable as 308 so far as hunting goes.
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Old 04-29-2019, 05:56 AM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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Originally Posted by ColoradoMinuteMan View Post
I did not make that assertion

I'm curious, how do you think .223 is for caribou, elk, moose, hogs, bison, mountain lion, black bear, brown bear, polar bear?
lmfao, how do you think 6.8SPC with its 1,600ft/lbs of muzzle energy is against them?.. and since i do not have bison, polar bears, and moose where i am, your argument is about as pointless as me asking how your 6.8 will fare against elephants, rhinos, hippos, pandas, and blue whales

5.56 = about 1,300ft/lbs muzzle energy
6.8SPC = about 1,600ft/lbs muzzle energy

5.56 77 grain at 2800 with a BC of .42 is about 1300ft/lbs at the muzzle, about 950 at 200 yards and about 550 at 500

6.8SPC 110 grain about 2500fps is 1525ft/lbs at the muzzle, 1020ft/lbs at 200 yards (yeah, only 70ft/lbs more than a 77 grain 5.56) and 526ft/lbs at 500

5.56 can also use the same bolts, barrels, and magazines to fire much cheaper and more readily available 55 and 62 grain ammunition as well.. so no, 6.8SPC isnt good enough over 77 grain ammunition to justify a caliber change.. which not coincidentally is exactly why the US military stopped considering it as an alternative
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:18 AM
ColoradoMinuteMan ColoradoMinuteMan is offline
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Originally Posted by justin22885 View Post
lmfao, how do you think 6.8SPC with its 1,600ft/lbs of muzzle energy is against them?.. and since i do not have bison, polar bears, and moose where i am, your argument is about as pointless as me asking how your 6.8 will fare against elephants, rhinos, hippos, pandas, and blue whales



5.56 = about 1,300ft/lbs muzzle energy

6.8SPC = about 1,600ft/lbs muzzle energy



5.56 77 grain at 2800 with a BC of .42 is about 1300ft/lbs at the muzzle, about 950 at 200 yards and about 550 at 500



6.8SPC 110 grain about 2500fps is 1525ft/lbs at the muzzle, 1020ft/lbs at 200 yards (yeah, only 70ft/lbs more than a 77 grain 5.56) and 526ft/lbs at 500



5.56 can also use the same bolts, barrels, and magazines to fire much cheaper and more readily available 55 and 62 grain ammunition as well.. so no, 6.8SPC isnt good enough over 77 grain ammunition to justify a caliber change.. which not coincidentally is exactly why the US military stopped considering it as an alternative


Seriously man, you’re way too easy. I love watching you get worked into a frenzy. All it takes is 2 sentences to have you off googling ballistic charts.


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Old 04-29-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Armtx77 View Post
Read recently, that the Army is trying to breathe life back into it...they didnt learn their lesson the 1st time.
What lesson is that?
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Old 04-29-2019, 02:43 PM
justin22885 justin22885 is offline
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Read recently, that the Army is trying to breathe life back into it...they didnt learn their lesson the 1st time.
do you have a source for this?
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:12 AM
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`

I'm guessing it was from the links in this thread. Like I said in that thread though, I find it hard that they simultaneously got the prototype & ordered 100K units.

https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...d.php?t=916390

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Old 04-30-2019, 04:12 AM
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`

i'm guessing it was from the links in this thread. Like i said in that thread though, i find it hard that they simultaneously got the prototype & ordered 100k units.

https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...d.php?t=916390

.
xm1186 =/= 6.8spc
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoradoMinuteMan View Post
That's an impressive list of game. I haven't had nearly that game experience as you have but I agree human factors will always be the greatest differentiator. If the shooter knows and operates within the limitations of the cartridge, nearly any will work.
No point in arguing with him, as he has not hunted anything on your list, and has never hunted anything with 6.8spc. ( IOW........0 first hand at anything this discussion is about in the first place.)

I hunt Colorado at least once a year on average, because I have family that lives there.

Good point regarding capabilities. That is basically what I was talking about regarding optimum cartridges . While 223 can work with the right bullet, it has limitations that a cartridge like 7mm08 does not. In simple terms......the op has more options when it comes to hunting North America, and a much greater effective range concerning med game such as deer, hogs, bou, and antelope.

Unlike internet hunters who throw out numbers from some site they found, folks that hunt often and have for a lifetime end up with actual first hand experience at what terminal effects actually look like, angled impacts, the real effects vs thick vegetation, etc...... ( In other words.....live critters that move instead of paper targets, various angles etc...and all while the actual target is inside the critter)

Example: 3 hogs taken last night with a 7.62x39mm pistol / 123gr Fed Fusion ...here at least) Distance at less than 30 feet in an ambush hunt. 1st shot is essentially stationary, while the other 2 are haulin butt and a full run by engagement time. Have had the same hunts countless times using other cartridges including 30 carbine, 38spl, 9mm, 40snw, 45acp, 357mag, 44 mag, 32acp, 380,22lr, 22win mg, 32 win spl, 12ga, 20ga, 6.8SPC, 223, 300blackout, and 30 30, 270, 243, 7mm08, 6.5cm, 3006, and 308 using various different loads/ bullets.

In short.....7.62x39mm with a good bullet that expands , penetrates, and retains 75% of org weight or better ........ compares well with 6.8 spc. 223 is limited in comparison to either.

As with 308, 7mm08 is another very efficient game killer, ( darn near optimum ) from my experience as a all around hunting cartridge. This is why I believe that an optimum/ efficient cartridge should be chosen overall, and less efficient cartridges utilized for more specific hunts. ( A more specialized role iow. )

Op is looking at 6.8spc and comparing it to his 7mm08. While I dont believe the former is capable enough to replace the latter overall, in my expierience at dumpin critters with 6.8, it is more efficient than 223 in more specialized roles/ within the same limitations.

Another example of a pistol I hunt with in pic below...... Within it's limitations, I have taken hogs with it before. ( MKIV Ruger 22/45 LITE with suppressor)
Typically for use as a small game/ pot stew meat tool, and a 2nd firearm carried with rifle that has extremely lightweight ammunition.


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Old 04-30-2019, 01:21 PM
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There's a place for that little itme, Fragout. I like a little more penetration than the .22 gives me out of a handgun, but that's why there's so many different shooting irons out there, as some of us have pointed out to the kid repeatedly.... As Kipling put it, "....there are nine-and-sixty ways of composing tribal lays
AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS RIGHT....".

Good thread, and it's been fun. Gotta go turn over the garden though, so I'll check in again next week.
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:43 PM
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I just get a kick out of the idea that we are working SO hard to figure out what cartridge to use in a hunting rifle; and then making it an AR too.

For the price of a 6.8 SPC AR, I can buy a decent bolt gun to hunt with in any of the usual chamberings, and build a decent 5.56 AR, which most are saying is just fine on people, even if not "optimum".

I know this flies in the face of some people's opinions...but I don't think you HAVE to standardize right now.

You CAN simply get what you want in a SHTF/war fighting weapon, stack the ammo deep, AND get a good old fudd gun and 200 rounds for hunting, and NOT compromise anything.

Once SHTF...I seriously doubt if the game hunting is going to be a thing for very long; I really think trapping or raising your own is going to be the answer, and hunting will be a thing of the good old days.
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Old 04-30-2019, 01:49 PM
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Yep. Hunting didn't recover from the Depression until well after WW2 in the Ozark country. And we're more heavily populated now than they were then, even if the competence level is lower.
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Old 04-30-2019, 07:30 PM
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Human population has been on the rise for awhile now, and active eradication efforts have not made a dent in the feral pig population around here. Quite the opposite, as thier population increases every year. Unless the next big bang adversely affects them or thier habitat, they will most likely out live us all.

Agree with trapping and especially raising livestock / growing your own " veggies ". All my kids and most of thier kids can fabricate traps out of existing resources via multiple parts of NA, but more important.....know where the best areas per region to set them in the first place.

Cheap hunting rifle here = A Mosin that the wife found at a garage sale for 20 bucks. 5 bucks more and she had 460 rds for it. ( If memory serves, that happened in the mid 80s) Does not compromise anything as it was put into a cache around the same time she bought it. Have no use for it as our hunting rifles are also our security rifles. Mine is pictured next to the AK pistol below.

We as a group decided to standardize cartridges years ago. 7.62x51mm is primary cf rifle cartridge while 7.62x39mm is secondary. 22LR is the rimfire choice. With that said, there wouldn't be a problem making 7mm08, 260rem, or 6.5 cm a primary cf rifle cartridge, and/ or 6.8 spc or 300 blackout as secondary.


Killed a feral pig about 45 minutes ago with the pistol in below pic. ( A big ugly boar)
One shot at roughly 50 feet or so. Neck shot while slightly quartering towards me.
7.62x39mm 123gr Hornady SST with average MV of 2196 fps thru that pistol.
Also started carrying it concealed with the permit and a little " creativity". ( CCW/ PDW/ HD inside house/ Hog buster at close range and out past 200 yards.) No issues so long as I stick with metal AK mags. Much better trigger than my Chicom AK47S and WASR10. Much more maneuverable in tight quarters than either AK rifle, or assigned M4A1 from work, along with better ergos than all 3 as well.

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