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Old 02-13-2019, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Moccasin View Post
Getting intense in here. The mods will probably have words to say about that if it goes on.

Getting back to the subject: From comments reportedly overheard in a bar from May's chief negotiator, it's May's deal now, or delay until there's no choice but May's deal March 29. The Britis are apparently trying to get the EU to give them more time, but given the toxic madhouse of British politics and politicians these days and their inability to agree on anything except that the ruling elite - ie, them - should stay the ruling elite, I would think Brussels would have to be insane to continue this freak show.

March 29, it's looking like a hard exit.
Brexit unleashes intense opinions.

Brits have gone from 'we're going to leave the EU and make a new relationship with the European bureaucracy' to 'we're going to be tied forever to a European government we can't choose, which is going to continue to make our law without any input other than money'. Wars have been started for less.
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Moccasin View Post
Getting intense in here. The mods will probably have words to say about that if it goes on.

Getting back to the subject: From comments reportedly overheard in a bar from May's chief negotiator, it's May's deal now, or delay until there's no choice but May's deal March 29. The Britis are apparently trying to get the EU to give them more time, but given the toxic madhouse of British politics and politicians these days and their inability to agree on anything except that the ruling elite - ie, them - should stay the ruling elite, I would think Brussels would have to be insane to continue this freak show.

March 29, it's looking like a hard exit.
quit whining
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Sorry-no-clues View Post
Brexit unleashes intense opinions.

Brits have gone from 'we're going to leave the EU and make a new relationship with the European bureaucracy' to 'we're going to be tied forever to a European government we can't choose, which is going to continue to make our law without any input other than money'. Wars have been started for less.
Misinformation is the key word here. Some people believed that it was possible to quit the EU and then get a better deal with said Union as a non-member Sate. Itís ridiculous if you think about it but thatís what some people believed would happen. The EU isnt being mean, it simply looks after the interests of its member States more than it does for non-member States, as it should do.
They also failed to understand that UK is in its current financial position as a country not because of massive industry or natural resources but because itís EU financial center status. English, history, culture, even things like time zone, it all made it an obvious choice. But that doesnít mean that the financial capital of the EU cant just as easily be anywhere else, especially in this time and age. Germans understood this perfectly well, and thatís how London has lost 1 trillion USd before Brexit even happened.

If Brexit does end up happening for real, then the reality people in UK will have to accept is going back to what they were before joining the EU.
A handful of people are making a ton of money out of it, while everyone else drops a few notches towards poverty. How much that impacts each person depends on their current status.

Long story short, those struggling now should be worried. It doesnít get better, rather the opposite.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Misinformation is the key word here. Some people believed that it was possible to quit the EU and then get a better deal with said Union as a non-member Sate. Itís ridiculous if you think about it but thatís what some people believed would happen. The EU isnt being mean, it simply looks after the interests of its member States more than it does for non-member States, as it should do.
They also failed to understand that UK is in its current financial position as a country not because of massive industry or natural resources but because itís EU financial center status. English, history, culture, even things like time zone, it all made it an obvious choice. But that doesnít mean that the financial capital of the EU cant just as easily be anywhere else, especially in this time and age. Germans understood this perfectly well, and thatís how London has lost 1 trillion USd before Brexit even happened.

If Brexit does end up happening for real, then the reality people in UK will have to accept is going back to what they were before joining the EU.
A handful of people are making a ton of money out of it, while everyone else drops a few notches towards poverty. How much that impacts each person depends on their current status.

Long story short, those struggling now should be worried. It doesnít get better, rather the opposite.
Nobody wanted a 'better deal'. Unless you count being able to make our own laws as a 'better deal' than EU membership, in which case yeah, guilty.

There was certainly a measure of naivety in Brexiteers thinking that the EU would deal with us like a friend and trading partner. The idea that there should be a 'divorce bill', when we never thought we were anything more than friends, was a surprise. It's like the woman at the till at Walmart demanding alimony when you suddenly start shopping at Costco.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Pitbull_Dallas View Post
I think they'll make it,...
Sure they will make it. Nissan is cutting jobs, Ford is cutting jobs, many companies are removing their headquarters. All of that is already happening.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...exit-heartland

I assume that we will see an hard Brexit. The British voting for Brexit did never agree in how that Brexit should be like. They have been hoping to get an unicorn.

EU has offered a (difficult) compromise including a temporal solution to the Irish border (which as an EU citizen I absolutly do not approve. because it leaves our EU border open and offers UK the possibility to harm the EU market with products imported from China & Co), but obviously the British parliament didn't like that deal either and want to get a "better one".

Good luck.

Maybe it would have been wiser to think what a Brexit should look like before votig for or against it.

From all options available now I prefer the border to be between Ireland and North Ireland. Where else. UK (that includes NI) wants to be outside the EU, Ireland wants to be inside.
So make the border where it belongs.

Of course this is pure **** for many people living there, but it wasn't my vote on this.

UK will sure be able to survive outside the EU and will be able to trade with EU. First on WTO rules, maybe later on bilateral deals. I wish them well and maybe for EU an UK outside the EU gives a better example than an UK as a meber of the EU has ever been.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:02 AM
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I've obviously touched a nerve with you Fernando for you to start mocking me for my girlfriend been sexually assaulted at work by EU staff. Pretty hard to protect someone when you're in a different part of the country working. But you are a ****ing **** after all and your idea of patriotism to your country is to leg it when times get difficult.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Cephalotus View Post
EU has offered a (difficult) compromise including a temporal solution to the Irish border (which as an EU citizen I absolutly do not approve. because it leaves our EU border open and offers UK the possibility to harm the EU market with products imported from China & Co), but obviously the British parliament didn't like that deal either and want to get a "better one".
The 'backstop' is not a 'temporal solution'; there is no time-limit to how long the EU will control the economic affairs of Northern Ireland, and no way for the UK to regain control unilaterally. Maybe it's being sold in Germany like that, but that's not there reality. Remember, EU political declarations are meaningless in law, and we'r constantly told that the EU is a rules-bound organisation.

It should be unacceptable to any free country to have a foreign power assuming open-ended control over part of its land and population.

What if France decided that the natural border of Germany was the Rhein, so France would assume control of the Rhineland, for as long as France thought was necessary? What if they required you to pay for the privilege? Would you accept this as a 'difficult compromise', or would you reject such interference from a foreign power?
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by foxkitten86 View Post
...it might well be a bit of a bumpy ride. FRANKLY MY DEAR, I DONT GIVE A DAMN.
Of course for you it's just a problem for "the others".

...until your government cuts into YOUR pension and your health care benefits.

At least you can not blame that on the EU and the Nazi Germans. (well, maybe you will still try)


Trading on WTO rules is not(!) what the negotiators from UK wanted when trying to find a compromise with the EU. UK wanted to stay in the trade market for goods and services. They just didn't want people to move, which is not negotiable and never was. UK(!) wants an open border in Ireland.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:25 AM
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The 'backstop' is not a 'temporal solution'; there is no time-limit to how long the EU will control the economic affairs of Northern Ireland, and no way for the UK to regain control unilaterally...
The problem can be seen from our side, too.

With the backstop it will be the EU that controls our EU border for goods from 3rd part countries and the risc is super high that UK will try to benefit from that situation, i.e. aloowng Chinese products to flood the market without paying taxes and VAT.

This already happend for several years with teh UK as an EU member via Amazon UK and ebay UK and did cost EU several billions of Euro and I assumed killed thousands of smnall traders within the EU which can not compete with that.

The backstop is a very bad idea also for EU

The problem ist that nobody so far has ever had a better one.

1. Hard border between IR and NI (I prefer it that way)
2. Hard border between EU and IR+UK with IR outside the EU (IR does oppose that obviously)
3. Hard border between EU+NI and Rest-UK with NI de facto becoming a member of the EU and leaving UK.

Chose one.

And this is just one point out of several others.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Chances are nothing will happen come 30th of March. This has "delayed" written all over it.
There is a vote for the EU parliament in May 2019 (you know, that Brussel dictatorship where not anybody ever gets a vote) and it does not look to be super wise to have UK a vote in that next parliament, so there is not so much room for delay.

And btw, what can be achieved in 2 months more that could have not been achieved in the last 3 years?

There is no progross from the UK side, what they want Brexit to be. They can't even agree if they want a soft or hard Brexit, it simply is not known even today.

Uu negotiated with UK represenatives incl their PM and their Brexit minister and they signed on a deal just to tell us later that they want a "better one", because they can't sell it at home. This is not how you negotiate.

EU does not want a hard Brexit and never did, because obviously it will cause the most harm on both sides. It's the most stupid outcome, but so far it is the only option realistically available.

Maybe we shopuld start to send blue helmets to the soon to be Irish border?
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
..The finances say that UK's economy is based on financial services that are already leaving UK. What on Earth makes you thing that the EU needs the UK more? What is it that you believe that the EU needs from UK so very bad? Food? Meds? Workers? Fish & Chips?
UK is the 4th largest economy in the world because it is the EU’s financial capital. If Brexit happens, that will change…VERY fast...
"...The Dutch government has said it is in talks with more than 250 companies about moving their operations from the UK to the Netherlands before Brexit...
...Among those who have chosen to invest in the Netherlands are the Discovery Channel, Sony and Bloomberg..."


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...to-netherlands
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:39 AM
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The British government has repeatedly said there will be no hard border. It will be the EU that will demand a hard border and they will be responsible for any sht getting blown up...
Of course the EU wants a hard border, is that unable for you to understand? This is not negotiable and never has been.
The backstop would have been a very bitter compromise for the EU, too. It is an offer but you don't see that.

You surley knew about that the 4 freedoms of the EU and its borders when you voted for Brexit, otherwise you just demonstrate that you know nothing, ansolutely nothing, about the EU.

The hard EU border is there to protect our trade union. Until now that border included the UK.

Your voters wanted to be outside.

Now you want to blame the EU that NI has to stay outside after Brexit?

Really?!
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:49 AM
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Personally, if the IRA kicks off again I would have the family home of a terrorist bull dozed.
Somehow it seems that you arm chair warrior are quite eagerly awaiting a civil war in your own country with some "nice killing".

To me this sounds quite sickening. :-(
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Cephalotus View Post
Of course the EU wants a hard border, is that unable for you to understand? This is not negotiable and never has been.
The backstop would have been a very bitter compromise for the EU, too. It is an offer but you don't see that.

You surley knew about that the 4 freedoms of the EU and its borders when you voted for Brexit, otherwise you just demonstrate that you know nothing, ansolutely nothing, about the EU.

The hard EU border is there to protect our trade union. Until now that border included the UK.

Your voters wanted to be outside.

Now you want to blame the EU that NI has to stay outside after Brexit?

Really?!
We blame the EU for not trying harder to find a better technology-led solution to the problem, and for not negotiating with goodwill and sensitivity, given the history of problems with the Irish border.

Rather than saying, "You're leaving, let's sort this out as friends" the EU has said, "You think you're going? Well we'll have to punish you hard to make sure that no-one else thinks about leaving. If UK citizens are killed by IRA terrorists that doesn't matter, so long as we protect our trading union. Oh and by the way, hand over £39 billion on your way out."

And you wonder why we blame the EU?
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Cephalotus View Post
Of course the EU wants a hard border, is that unable for you to understand? This is not negotiable and never has been.
The backstop would have been a very bitter compromise for the EU, too. It is an offer but you don't see that.

You surley knew about that the 4 freedoms of the EU and its borders when you voted for Brexit, otherwise you just demonstrate that you know nothing, ansolutely nothing, about the EU.

The hard EU border is there to protect our trade union. Until now that border included the UK.

Your voters wanted to be outside.

Now you want to blame the EU that NI has to stay outside after Brexit?

Really?!
We blame the EU for not trying harder to find a better technology-led solution to the problem, and for not negotiating with goodwill and sensitivity, given the history of problems with the Irish border.

Rather than saying, "You're leaving, let's sort this out as friends" the EU has said, "You think you're going? Well we'll have to punish you hard to make sure that no-one else thinks about leaving. If UK citizens are killed by IRA terrorists that doesn't matter, so long as we protect our trading union. Oh and by the way, hand over £39 billion on your way out."

And you wonder why we blame the EU?
Youre asking the EU to fix the problems you create. The world doesnt work that way.
Also theres no technology solution for the border , you might as well ask for magic.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:48 AM
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Youre asking the EU to fix the problems you create. The world doesnt work that way.
Also theres no technology solution for the border , you might as well ask for magic.
"The details of a technological border are relatively straightforward. In the context of a free-trade agreement, with no tariffs on trade between the UK and EU, border checks can be done without personnel or infrastructure at the border itself. All customs declarations can be made online, as is becoming the norm globally. The deputy director of Swedish customs, Lars Karlsson, has repeatedly said that the progress of declared goods across the border can be monitored using standard mobile phone and GPS technology (already available in most trucks), thus avoiding fixed cameras. This monitoring technology is already in use by Network Rail, Uber and many others, and has been successfully trialled on the Norway-Sweden border. This gives an invisible border, which the head of Swiss customs, Dr Christian Bock confirmed is technically possible in evidence to the Northern Ireland Select Committee last November. Checks for illegal activity can be undertaken anywhere. With regulatory equivalence and provision for checks on sensitive goods coming into Northern Ireland from outside the EU (which the DUP can agree), most of the legitimate concerns of the EU can be met. Frequent cross-border trade by small businesses, particularly in services, can be accommodated within a free-trade agreement.
Sadly these practical solutions have been largely ignored by politicians in Dublin and Brussels Ė who appear to be using the Irish border as a card in their negotiating hand."

From here:https://policyexchange.org.uk/what-y...r-post-brexit/

This problem could have been dealt with ages ago with goodwill on both sides. The EU wanted to use the Irish border as a stick to beat the UK. We must be punished.

I am coming more and more in favour of a delay till at least June 2019. I would love to see the EU election results from the UK.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:03 PM
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Has the UK threatened to revoke work visas for EU citizens post-Brexit?
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Youre asking the EU to fix the problems you create. The world doesnt work that way.
Also theres no technology solution for the border , you might as well ask for magic.
"The details of a technological border are relatively straightforward. In the context of a free-trade agreement, with no tariffs on trade between the UK and EU, border checks can be done without personnel or infrastructure at the border itself. All customs declarations can be made online, as is becoming the norm globally. The deputy director of Swedish customs, Lars Karlsson, has repeatedly said that the progress of declared goods across the border can be monitored using standard mobile phone and GPS technology (already available in most trucks), thus avoiding fixed cameras. This monitoring technology is already in use by Network Rail, Uber and many others, and has been successfully trialled on the Norway-Sweden border. This gives an invisible border, which the head of Swiss customs, Dr Christian Bock confirmed is technically possible in evidence to the Northern Ireland Select Committee last November. Checks for illegal activity can be undertaken anywhere. With regulatory equivalence and provision for checks on sensitive goods coming into Northern Ireland from outside the EU (which the DUP can agree), most of the legitimate concerns of the EU can be met. Frequent cross-border trade by small businesses, particularly in services, can be accommodated within a free-trade agreement.
Sadly these practical solutions have been largely ignored by politicians in Dublin and Brussels – who appear to be using the Irish border as a card in their negotiating hand."

From here:https://policyexchange.org.uk/what-y...r-post-brexit/

This problem could have been dealt with ages ago with goodwill on both sides. The EU wanted to use the Irish border as a stick to beat the UK. We must be punished.

I am coming more and more in favour of a delay till at least June 2019. I would love to see the EU election results from the UK.
How would you control that guns, slaves, drugs, bombs, illegal immigrants, etc dont flow freely across the border?
You know its impossible to do that without a border. You know thats why every country in the world has borders.
The fabled "technological solution" was always a smokescreen.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:11 PM
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Has the UK threatened to revoke work visas for EU citizens post-Brexit?
No. We have said that we are going to restrict the numbers coming in in future, but that's a reasonable thing for any independent country to do.
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Old 02-13-2019, 12:17 PM
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How would you control that guns, slaves, drugs, bombs, illegal immigrants, etc dont flow freely across the border?
You know its impossible to do that without a border. You know thats why every country in the world has borders.
The fabled "technological solution" was always a smokescreen.
We can be smarter than building a GBFO wall.

Ireland isn't in Schengen, so people going into the ROI are already controlled. All these things are already illegal in UK, and we aren't in Schengen either, which is why the Belgian terrorists went to Paris, rather than London.

It's perfectly possible to find solutions to specific problems that won't spark a terrorist war in defence of EU free trade. If both sides want to.
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