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Old 03-20-2016, 07:06 AM
Michael O Michael O is offline
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Well, I've never known Orthodox guys to back down from a fight(interesting choice of church, btw). That being said, if you're going to go non-lethal, I recommend learning some form of hand-to-hand combat, especially Krav Maga or Systema.
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Old 03-20-2016, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SeaBeeDaddy View Post
I don't. Not against it or pulling chains but that does enter my mind. What would you do?
I guess be a grown-up, swallow my pride and walk away.

Unless being incarcerated with a looming civil suit over my head turns my wife on...
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Old 03-20-2016, 01:14 PM
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If lethal be your first resort...
You won't enjoy your day in court.
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:41 PM
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Even if you're not an Orthodox Christian, borrowing or adopting my rules of engagement will save your butt in court especially in a liberal place. Also I do not want the media to beat me to death and ruin my life, like they did with George Zimmerman or that cop in Ferguson who shot Micheal Brown, if I ever get into an altercation with (an) unarmed black attacker(s).
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Old 03-21-2016, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by BJJ_Grappler View Post
1. Because I don't want to go to jail.

2. Because the drunk 105 lb women don't need to die.

3. Because I am highly skilled and don't need a gun unless they have a deadly weapon.

4. Because I am strong, not weak, and don't need to compensate.

5. Because not every person who attacks you is in their right mind (e.g. elderly dementia, kids throwing a fit, your emotionally distraught wife)
I agree with all of this.. I had a burglar 3 weeks ago. I scared him off then proceeded to track him home. Lived about a half mile from me, imagine that..

Anyway, we are having a lot of thefts here due to the heroin epidemic in my area of America. The local LE says, protect your property if you have to otherwise get as much information as possible and give it to them and they will do what they can. My cop buddies are all overwhelmed with the heroin epidemic and the crimes it spawns.

Anyway, I followed this guy around for a day and let him see me a few times and I'd say, hello cupcake! How are ya? Man, I'll kill you, you wanna go?
Naw, I'm good.. That dance went on a few times and he was too dumb to understand how close to death he was had been that type of person.. He had so much hate in him, it was sad.. I eventually waited for him to go by and I followed him home and we had a comin to Jesus meetin in his driveway,me him and his wife.. I coulda killed em both on several occasions if I'd wanted to. No challenge there but I felt for them, they are hillbilly trash that lives in extreme poverty and honestly if I could help them I would, it's very saddening and I am very blessed compared to them. They probably wont be breaking and entering for a while..

Why would you wanna just kill another human? That's not the answer..
I was taught in the military how to kill very efficiently but that doesn't mean I should do it because I am good at it..
Unless you're being directly attacked and you or your loved ones are in danger, you don't need to a human life..
It's far more difficult to forgive and love one another than it is to go into war mode.. Anytime I have ever gotten into war mode it has left me with regret for the things I have done against my fellow man..

When I was a boot we had these quotes all around base from this great Marine named Major Gene Duncan. He has written many books but When the Bugle Calls was the one that resonated with me and this quote in patricular.

It went something like, a true warrior kills with one hand and loves with the other. Basically a true warrior has balance, having been washed in the blood of the warrior ethos that was the USMC this mans writings were the things that guided this young jarhead and turned him into the man he is today..
I never met Major Duncan and he died in 2011 but he shaped many a young man thru his words and leadership.
Sorry for the rant but this resonated with me and I had to share..
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Old 03-21-2016, 08:52 PM
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Duncan wrote a pretty good series of books titled "Green Side Out". An enjoyable series of sea stories. Hadn't thought of these books in a long time.
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cynical Misanthrope View Post
Why would a person choose to defend himself or herself (self-defense) with non-lethal means?. It would seem to me if I had a need to defend myself against harm, lethal means would be the most effective way.

Self-defense...is a countermeasure that involves defending the well-being of oneself ...from harm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense
harm -

noun
physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.
synonyms: injury, hurt, pain, trauma

verb
physically injure.
synonyms: injure, hurt, wound, lay a finger on, maltreat, mistreat, misuse, ill-treat, ill-use, abuse, molest
https://www.google.com/search?q=non-...e=UTF-8#q=harm
Law allows you to employ non-lethal force earlier and that means you can get the upper hand before it reaches lethal force. For example, I can use nonlethal force to remove a trespasser. I can only use lethal force if that person resists nonlethal force with a threat/attempt to cause me serious physical harm. Same as making a citizen's arrest, misdemeanor level assaults, stop a theft not inside a private building I occupy, etc.

For example: Creepy meat truck salesman shows up at the door. You tell him to **** off. He says he won't leave until you buy some rotten steaks. Is he waiting for his buddy in the truck to sneak around to the back door? Is he just trying to get you to open so he can push his way in? Is he about to give up and just kick in the door? Is he just a pushy *******? Hard to say, but you can't shoot him in most states at this point. What you can do, is crack the mail slot and dump a can on bear-spray on him and send him fleeing into the yard where he can wait writhing on the ground for the police to arrive and collect him. If he responds to being bear-sprayed with violence or a threat, you've now got a huge tactical advantage in a lethal force engagement.

Then of course there's the non-human situations. I'd much prefer to send my neighbor's dog back to his house with a couple welts on his ass from rubber buckshot for harassing my goats than to carry the poor bloody-drenched pup back with holes in him.
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Old 03-23-2016, 03:25 PM
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I want lethal force to be my last resort.
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Old 03-23-2016, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CORangefinder View Post
Why would you think killing is anything but a last resort?

prison noun
1. a building for the confinement of persons held while awaiting trial, persons sentenced after conviction, etc.

When lethal force becomes necessary, don't hesitate. but it should not be your first and only action.
I avoid confrontations. If I'm pushed to the point to where I have to defend myself, I can only assume they want to kill me. I'm not going to pretend to know what some lunatics motives are, but I can make sure that I'm alive to talk about it the next day. The key is to do whatever is necessary to leave and pray they don't put you into a position that you have to finish what they started.
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Old 03-28-2016, 07:18 PM
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Bluntly, if ou don't already know the answer to this, then you shouldn't own a gun !
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Old 04-16-2016, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt View Post
Law allows you to employ non-lethal force earlier and that means you can get the upper hand before it reaches lethal force. For example, I can use nonlethal force to remove a trespasser. I can only use lethal force if that person resists nonlethal force with a threat/attempt to cause me serious physical harm. Same as making a citizen's arrest, misdemeanor level assaults, stop a theft not inside a private building I occupy, etc.

For example: Creepy meat truck salesman shows up at the door. You tell him to **** off. He says he won't leave until you buy some rotten steaks. Is he waiting for his buddy in the truck to sneak around to the back door? Is he just trying to get you to open so he can push his way in? Is he about to give up and just kick in the door? Is he just a pushy *******? Hard to say, but you can't shoot him in most states at this point. What you can do, is crack the mail slot and dump a can on bear-spray on him and send him fleeing into the yard where he can wait writhing on the ground for the police to arrive and collect him. If he responds to being bear-sprayed with violence or a threat, you've now got a huge tactical advantage in a lethal force engagement.

Then of course there's the non-human situations. I'd much prefer to send my neighbor's dog back to his house with a couple welts on his ass from rubber buckshot for harassing my goats than to carry the poor bloody-drenched pup back with holes in him.

There are several problems with this.

First, I am unaware of any law that allows a civilian to use force of any kind against another civilian in a situation where there is not an imminent danger of bodily harm. Perhaps in certain jurisdictions, but none I am familiar with.

If you bear spray through the mail slot, and your boogie man truck driver calls the police, YOU are going to jail for assault.
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Old 04-17-2016, 11:25 AM
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You need to actually read some state laws. Actually read them. Don't just go off what some guy said they were, because that sounds like how they think it works.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/st...300000361.html

Quote:
Section: 563.0036.1(Repealed L. 2007 S.B. 62 & 41 A)

563.036. 1. A person in possession or control of premises or a person who is licensed or privileged to be thereon, may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of the crime of trespass by the other person.

2. A person may use deadly force under circumstances described in subsection 1 of this section only:

(1) When such use of deadly force is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or

(2) When he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the trespasser to commit arson or burglary upon his dwelling; or

(3) When entry into the premises is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering physical violence to any person or being in the premises and he reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony.

3. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.
In the state of Missouri (and many others) if you are on my door step and I tell you to leave and you don't, or you cross fenced/posted land to get there, you are subject to physical force for the purpose of removing you from the property or arresting you (because Missouri is also a citizen-arrest state). End of story. The law is very simple and very clear.
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Old 04-17-2016, 02:20 PM
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The last line in that is also clear. You have the burden of justification. If there is no physical evidence of a crime, and the guy you sprayed lies about his intent, you are screwed.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:12 PM
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The last line in that is also clear. You have the burden of justification. If there is no physical evidence of a crime, and the guy you sprayed lies about his intent, you are screwed.
No. I have to say it was to remove him is what that says. They can't conclude that on their own. Their intent is also irrelevant unless I use lethal force. The only pertinent thing is that I said go and they didn't.
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Colt View Post
No. I have to say it was to remove him is what that says. They can't conclude that on their own. Their intent is also irrelevant unless I use lethal force. The only pertinent thing is that I said go and they didn't.
You should have a lawyer explain to you what the law you posted actually says. You are, I think, confusing justifiable use of deadly force and assault. I believe you would be guilty of assault if you spray an annoying salesman, Mormon missionary, Jehovah's witness, girl scout cookie salesperson, etc. through your mail slot. Remember that whoever calls 911 first is often considered the victim. I.e., "Dang, I rang the doorbell and someone sprayed me through the mail slot. Now I can't do my job, lost vision, had a heart attack. etc."
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Old 05-28-2016, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Inusuit View Post
You should have a lawyer explain to you what the law you posted actually says. You are, I think, confusing justifiable use of deadly force and assault. I believe you would be guilty of assault if you spray an annoying salesman, Mormon missionary, Jehovah's witness, girl scout cookie salesperson, etc. through your mail slot. Remember that whoever calls 911 first is often considered the victim. I.e., "Dang, I rang the doorbell and someone sprayed me through the mail slot. Now I can't do my job, lost vision, had a heart attack. etc."
The only questions are: 'Were they ordered to leave?' and 'Did they leave when ordered?' That's it. Nothing else matters for use of non-lethal force. As soon as those questions are answered I'm clear.

Now if my property is not posted against trespass and I say nothing before spraying them, and they don't enter in a violent, stealthy, or tumultuous manner, and they are not demonstrating intent to commit a burglary, assault, or arson, then I might be arrested for assault.

The fact that I have a camera on my door makes it very easy to get rid of any he said she said argument.
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Old 05-30-2016, 03:09 PM
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Short answer to a very dumb question . . .
Not every self defense situation requires deadly force !
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Old 09-27-2016, 09:53 AM
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Why not just use lethal means?

I dunno.... humanity n stuff.
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Old 09-27-2016, 09:48 PM
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If you have a family, remember if you use lethal means when it wasn't warranted, who is gonna protect them while you are taking a Johnson up the arse in prison???
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Old 10-06-2016, 11:54 PM
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Because sometimes when I have had to defend myself it was against someone who is drunk or stupid. Neither of those are capital crimes. The good book says there is a time to kill. But sometimes there is just a time to thump upside the noggin.
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