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Old 09-28-2012, 09:21 AM
jeetkundo jeetkundo is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish Pete View Post
My BJJ coach taught Inosanto:-)
blasphemer!!!!


lol, honestly I have no ties or special loyalty to inosanto or JKD.

as I said before, I train there cause I like my partner, and I also like the sifu. He is a highly intelligent guy who is laid back and no ego.
this makes the school for me.

No loyalty to any style or school for me
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:12 PM
Irish Pete Irish Pete is offline
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Originally Posted by jeetkundo View Post
blasphemer!!!!


lol, honestly I have no ties or special loyalty to inosanto or JKD.

as I said before, I train there cause I like my partner, and I also like the sifu. He is a highly intelligent guy who is laid back and no ego.
this makes the school for me.

No loyalty to any style or school for me
Jeez, glad I didn't make a movie about it

Inosanto is one of those people who never stops wanting to know more, to fill in any possible gaps in his knowledge, be comfortable wherever a situation may end up. Thats why he started taking lessons with the Machado brothers, who my coach(John Donehue) also trained under and he ended up teaching Dan quite a bit. Dan saw that there was a whole extra skillset he could add to his repertoire and instead of ignoring it like a lot of high graded trad instructors might do, he embraced it.

I would venture to say that Dan is probably the most complete pure martial artist alive, which I believe is due to the man himself, and his JKD philosophy.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:21 AM
Grass hopper Grass hopper is offline
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I'd like to post on this thread what I put on a thread about the self defense applications of mma. I believe it could be valuable.


Lets not just pick on mma in this thread, I think the whole point is sport based fighting in general.

For example, the karate world is (unfortunately) somewhat split, there are the traditionalists, and the sportsmen. Not that there is anything wrong with competition and tournaments, but you get some dojos that skip over every aspect but sparring in their training in order to make better tournament fighters, what they end up doing is making worse karateka, and people who are less able (but still much better off than the average joe) to defend themselves.

Again, I don't want to insult sport fighting, if that's your thing go for it, it just shouldn't be the sole focus of a martial artist, and if it is, you should realize the limitations that gives your.

I for example try to ovoid the sport aspect of karate, The most common type of competition sparring is point sparring wich I don't very much like. As a result, I'm not great at point sparring, In a free sparring match or a higher contact match however, I do fine. That's because I'm more of a traditionalist, no kickboxing really for me. What it breaks down to is speed vs power.

traditional karate focuses on power, and explosiveness so it's harder to block your strikes, that and being generally hard to hit. For example, I was in a tournament, point sparring a first degree from another school. I learned after this that he was apparently one of their best point sparers. He went to round house kick me, and without thinking I used my back leg to simultaneously chamber for a side kick and knee him in the shin/ankle, then kick him in the tonden (just above the pelvis, front and center. It is the folding point of the male body). This sent him down and hurt his shin/ankle enough to put him with the paramedics for the rest of the night, he was a gentlman about it though, said it was his fault for telegraphing a kick

Sports karate focuses generally more on speed, how many punches or kicks you can get out in a given time, without as much focus on the power of those strikes. Now, those strikes will give you a good thud for sure. i remember taking a spinning hook kick to the back of the head from such a guy, unpleasant experience. I had come in with a blitz, combined with a reverse punch (like a cross, but drawn from the hip) and all of a sudden he wasn't there anymore. Then I felt a thud and it sent me to a knee, I guess he didn't like what I did to his friend I guess it helped that he was a third degree too.

Sorry for the rant, I tend to do that, but I just didn't want to sound like some anti mma traditionalist wacko. It all has its place, put me in the octagon with ZZ7, and being that he is an mma fighter, he'd probably win. In a bout of knockdown sparring the reverse could happen. (Knockdown sparring I'd karate's high contact sparring. Bare knuckle, only rule is no face punching, a point for every time you put the opponent to the ground. Only reason for the lack of face contact is given the bare knuckles, any karateka who did this on a regular basis would be very ugly.)


I believe this could be helpful for anyone trying to decide what they want out of their martial arts.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grass hopper View Post
I'd like to post on this thread what I put on a thread about the self defense applications of mma. I believe it could be valuable.


Lets not just pick on mma in this thread, I think the whole point is sport based fighting in general.

For example, the karate world is (unfortunately) somewhat split, there are the traditionalists, and the sportsmen. Not that there is anything wrong with competition and tournaments, but you get some dojos that skip over every aspect but sparring in their training in order to make better tournament fighters, what they end up doing is making worse karateka, and people who are less able (but still much better off than the average joe) to defend themselves.

Again, I don't want to insult sport fighting, if that's your thing go for it, it just shouldn't be the sole focus of a martial artist, and if it is, you should realize the limitations that gives your.

I for example try to ovoid the sport aspect of karate, The most common type of competition sparring is point sparring wich I don't very much like. As a result, I'm not great at point sparring, In a free sparring match or a higher contact match however, I do fine. That's because I'm more of a traditionalist, no kickboxing really for me. What it breaks down to is speed vs power.

traditional karate focuses on power, and explosiveness so it's harder to block your strikes, that and being generally hard to hit. For example, I was in a tournament, point sparring a first degree from another school. I learned after this that he was apparently one of their best point sparers. He went to round house kick me, and without thinking I used my back leg to simultaneously chamber for a side kick and knee him in the shin/ankle, then kick him in the tonden (just above the pelvis, front and center. It is the folding point of the male body). This sent him down and hurt his shin/ankle enough to put him with the paramedics for the rest of the night, he was a gentlman about it though, said it was his fault for telegraphing a kick

Sports karate focuses generally more on speed, how many punches or kicks you can get out in a given time, without as much focus on the power of those strikes. Now, those strikes will give you a good thud for sure. i remember taking a spinning hook kick to the back of the head from such a guy, unpleasant experience. I had come in with a blitz, combined with a reverse punch (like a cross, but drawn from the hip) and all of a sudden he wasn't there anymore. Then I felt a thud and it sent me to a knee, I guess he didn't like what I did to his friend I guess it helped that he was a third degree too.

Sorry for the rant, I tend to do that, but I just didn't want to sound like some anti mma traditionalist wacko. It all has its place, put me in the octagon with ZZ7, and being that he is an mma fighter, he'd probably win. In a bout of knockdown sparring the reverse could happen. (Knockdown sparring I'd karate's high contact sparring. Bare knuckle, only rule is no face punching, a point for every time you put the opponent to the ground. Only reason for the lack of face contact is given the bare knuckles, any karateka who did this on a regular basis would be very ugly.)


I believe this could be helpful for anyone trying to decide what they want out of their martial arts.
Yeah but you are comparing this.

to this.

They are both sports fighting.

By the way I can hold my own with pretty good kyokashin guys when face punching is allowed. We have a group that comes in a spars from time to time.

In regards to face punching. The MMA glove has come a long way and is a very usefull piece of kit for the guys who want to include face punching without the cuts.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:36 AM
Grass hopper Grass hopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Yeah but you are comparing this.
Point Fighting - Ross Levine - YouTube

to this.
Kyokushin karate 5th world championship (1/4) - YouTube

They are both sports fighting.

By the way I can hold my own with pretty good kyokashin guys when face punching is allowed. We have a group that comes in a spars from time to time.

In regards to face punching. The MMA glove has come a long way and is a very usefull piece of kit for the guys who want to include face punching without the cuts.
Yes, they are both sport fighting, and I don't mean to say either are useless, the real difference with the kyokoshin guys is that they fight as part of their training, not as the aim of their training.

That's one of the ways I believe the karate world could modernize a bit, and it's something I'm actually gonna start trying to change reguarding the mma gloves.
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:09 AM
PapaWhiskyBravo PapaWhiskyBravo is offline
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Its been a few years since i've trained in it but i'll do a Krav Maga write up.

Pros
Fast to learn
Teaches escapes from the most common holds like hair grabbing, headlocks, lapel grabs, bear hugs.
Limited amount of moves so you can focus on getting them right.
Firearm defensive moves (unique to KM)
Contact sparring
Covers a bit of everything including groundwork and very basic boxing.
Strong on situational awareness and scenario training.
Teaches aggression.


Cons
Quite limited in its scope. Someone genuinely interested in MA will get bored after a while. Groundwork is very basic.
No competitive sparring.
Not strong on fitness/conditioning.
No weapons training ( at least where i trained ).

Krav Maga is not a deadly art in any way shape or form. I don't know how it got that reputation, but it just isnt.

It is however an excellent way to get the basics of how to defend yourself from common attacks in a really efficient way. Just the basics though. Krav Maga is not a 'fighting' art. It teaches techniques that create space so you can escape.

It also incorporates defenses against handguns, submachine guns and long guns in a hostage type situation. These moves have been tested with live ammo and if applied correctly, they'll work.

I'd recommend Krav Maga to beginners, as it covers a little of everything. It also has something to offer those who are accomplished in their own arts and wish to branch out. As a stand alone art however it suffers from a lack of depth IMO.
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Old 09-30-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grass hopper View Post
Yes, they are both sport fighting, and I don't mean to say either are useless, the real difference with the kyokoshin guys is that they fight as part of their training, not as the aim of their training.

That's one of the ways I believe the karate world could modernize a bit, and it's something I'm actually gonna start trying to change reguarding the mma gloves.
Coming from someone who's best option for most of my youth was this.



It just seems a waste that people have the MMA glove and dont use it.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:32 PM
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MMA is a form of fighting that evolved with lessons learned directly from the streets. No BS, just ownage.

Traditional martial arts can be a flowery when you least need it if you strictly adhere to the old ways. Real life is not Hollywood.

The only reservations I have about MMA type gyms are some of the meatheads who are "all hardcore yo" and willing to break bones for this training. You are not fighting for your life or big prize money IN THE GYM, and most people have a career that can be undermined by missing work due to a serious injury while sparring. And the level of professionalism can be far, far less due to the influence of.......meatheads.

Sparring in traditional martial arts dojos is more manageable, but not nearly as serious.

So you have to decide how serious you are when choosing a gym.
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Old 09-08-2016, 06:48 PM
BushLifeNC BushLifeNC is offline
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BJJ and Muay Thai are the staples of MMA for a reason. I trained both, plus a smattering of Judo (for throws), and Wrestling (for take-downs and take-down defense). I think you need a ground-fighting art AND a striking art. A decade before I trained BJJ and MT, I was in a Shotokan club. Much more formal and ceremony-laden. Not going to say it wasn't useful on the street, but I had no ground game at the time.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:43 AM
Hal3134 Hal3134 is offline
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There are lots of videos on YouTube that show martial art X vs martial art Y. Watch enough of them, and MMA fights and you start to see a pattern. I used to do Judo and Tae Kwon do. The former was decent but the latter is only useful for sport IMO; no real practicality to the street. Now I train BJJ and find it to be much more effective. My school has several people who trained in other disciplines before seeing the same thing and coming to BJJ. Just check out the various Gracie challenge videos to see how ineffective some of the other disciplines are.
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Old 12-27-2016, 04:39 AM
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Jeet basically now falls into two lineages, one based on Dan Inosanto and the other by Ted Wong. This lineage difference tends to cause a LOT of flame wars on other forums so sufficient to say that Dan's camp tends to focus more on Sifu Lee's approach to martial arts whereas Ted's camp (Ted is now deceased with no immediate successor in sight) focuses more on Jun Fan Jeet Kun Do, the interpretation of Ted's time with Sifu Lee.

Dan Inosanto is a fantastic teacher in his own right in a number of martial arts and, as has been brought up, has studied a number of them and continues to do so. I've trained via one of Paul Vunak's lineage, who was taught by Inosanto, who was taught by Bruce Lee. That having been said (and only said because of the nonsense remarks earlier in this thread) a pedigree is a piece of paper.

My primary training is in Tai Chi (taught to me by a homeless guy in an abandoned house) and find that Tai Chi serves me a bit better personally.

I'd just like to point out the following:

1) Any real 'martial competency' can only occur when the proper body conditioning has taken place. In my experience, I haven't seen a student yet who is able to spar *competently* with less than a year under their belt.

2) Generally speaking it's the training mentality, not the martial art, that determines efficacy. If a guy wants to brain ya and finds his fists aren't working, he'll reach for a chair. That kind of thinking generally doesn't occur to most until it happens to them.

3) Flexible thinking is the most important tool you have. Spar with other styles and find out where things are weak. Good instruction will yield good fundamentals, bad instruction will leave you feeling you need to get 'stronger' or 'more powerful.'
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Old 12-27-2016, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYorDIE View Post
I'm not even sure how many of Bruce's original students are still alive? I think Dan Inosanto is?
There are a number of them. Guru Inosanto is still alive, Tim Tackett (who I think still teaches out of his garage), and Taky Kimura might still be out there. His wife, Linda, obviously. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is still alive (but I'm fairly certain he doesn't plan on opening a school). There are likely more but those are some of the better known ones.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:15 AM
sixtus sixtus is offline
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I boxed and trained combatives in military and contracted doing it for NATO in Afghanistan. I also wrestled competitively.

Realistically deep down, everyone here knows the answer, even the OP. But everyone sort of hopes there is a shortcut to 'an easier version of fighting' that will somehow work.


Sorry-

1. Most traditional Dojo styles don;t work, or aren;t taught in a way that reliably enable you to defend yourself. if you are athletic enough or get in enough fights using them you might make them useful. For the average person they are about selling the average person a colored belt. I have lost track of the amount of karate and TKD blackbelts I have seen bashed on the street or in clubs.

2. Styles that do work are boxing, kickboxing, amateur wrestling, mauy thai MMA, BJJ, some jujitsu, judo, sambo. The key factors they work are the same reason most of you don't want to do them. 1. They are full contact for their techniques.2. Strong emphasis on fitness. In other words they are hard work, they hurt, you train all day learning to hit or throw hard enough to take out the fittest, strongest athletes in the community. This is why they work(duh) and this is also why 90% of martial artists choose easier crap instead.

3. Military combat styles, self defence courses, stuff like krav maga. Some okay but many not much better than option 1 dojo styles. The reason is generally lack of fitness emphasis and instructors selling courses promising you will be a special forces killer in three simple lessons. Sorry doesn't happen. Also the average person doesn't realise that even a good military style isn;t designed to make you a great fighter or deadly killer anyway. Soldiers have another 50 things to learn( navigation, weapons, first aid, vehicles etc), they don't have time to make them an expert in any field, so for self defence they teach a set of basic techniques to at least give him actions to perform should he find himself without a weapon.

One of their biggest failings is they don't teach much defence to the option 2 fighters, since its not worth expecting soldiers will be facing a pro boxer or MMA fighter. You can be a krav maga grandmaster and know quite a few deadly strikes but still have absolutely no practice in blocking pro-kickboxers leg breaking leg kicks, a boxers left jab or a college wrestlers takedown. You only master these things, by practicing every day with these guys, period. There are no magical shortcuts.

As we told our guys after whatever training we gave them, if they wanted to expand their skills then do any of the real fighting styles in option 2.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:55 AM
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I trained and fought the best in all kinds of styles.Fought real fights where we were trying to kill each other.Sometimes out numbered.Being in incredible shape is important.Sometimes pure luck is involved when the opposition is a bunch of drunken bikers with no fighting skills.One day you meet that one guy who is your match, and you windup in the fight of your life with Barney bad ass. Don't knock hard style Karate.There is guys that are incredible shape and train in several styles including wrestling and Judo.


Back in the day my school taught both Karate and Judo.
When it comes to fighting, you either have it or you don't.Only the best get in the ring to fight top fighters. Most of my fights were on the streets where there was no rules or bells to save ya. Many times the losing opponent pulled weapons or his friends decided to make it their business, and your fighting again. With having no rest and possibly fighting out numbered you fight on. Your lucky to lick your wounds or visit a E.R if you get away.I know of a few guys who would seek out tough guys at bars etc and want to fight them for fun. The thing is they were real tough guys, so you would be stupid to fight them.A top professional boxer met his match trying to take on one of these guys in a street fight. He had a big fight the next day and he got hurt.He went ahead and fought and he lost in a close fight in Chicago.I can't say the pro fighters name because he dead now and that would be disrespectful.

When you can break a brick with any type kick I call in Karate, your pretty good and that is with either leg. Most black belts can't do that, and most won't get in the ring because they are not in proper shape, or have the physical talent needed to win. I like Hapkido Karate which is a no nonsense hard style Korean Karate. It is not allowed in open styled tournaments like the Grand Nationals where the best fight the best. I have had over 100 real fights on the streets.Many of them were fighting street gangs in Chicago.This was back in the mid 1970. Been in many major gang fights where weapons were used and over 200 guys were going at it. All this while the cops watched.

I started Martial arts at 10 years old and trained for over 20 years.It took me 2 years to get real good with my kicking to be able to use it. I could tell ya where I was going to kick ya and there was nothing to stop me from nailing ya.It would be right where I said I would kick ya.Most picked their head and were ****ed when I nailed them so easy.I would of pulled my kick of course or else they would of been knocked out.I was so fast they didn't even see it coming.People who tried blocking my kicks in a serious fight windup with broken arms.

My fighting days are long over, but it was fun while it lasted.There are real tough guys out there who love to fight.Don't give me the P.S that the best fighters are the quiet types who don't need to prove anything.Fighters like to fight.A black belt means nothing to me.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:51 AM
drjones013 drjones013 is offline
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I'll try to toss in my two cents here (so I don't rant on something on another unrelated thread):

Tai Chi - One of the older martial arts out there, based on military training versus personal self-defense, there are two basic branches, one on the Shaolin side of things and the other from various Chen lineages (including Yang, Wu, Sun, amongst others). As I have only had training on the Chen side (a combination of Chen and Yang) I'll only attempt to speak from there.

Tai Chi wants minimum effort for maximum effect, preferring to 'move second, act first.' I'd very roughly categorize it as a counter-style of fighting, preferring to use superior positioning to throw, strike, and break; these movements often flow into each other without a clear pattern (other martial artists I've sparred with jokingly say it's 'attack by deception).

Pros -

Very well-rounded style with an emphasis on structure, footwork, and efficacy; nearly every body surface is a striking surface.

Works best in trapping to grappling range, often able to strike in situations where other styles cannot.

Almost every strike can immediately transition to a takedown.

Body mechanic training also has additional health benefits; Tai Chi done slowly is effectively just stretching and realignment of posture.

Cons -

LONG training time versus other martial arts. Expect a minimum time investment of 300 classroom hours with a decent instructor before you're capable of doing much, something closer to 500 hours before you're good to start sparring (that's roughly 2-3 hours twice a week for two years if you're wondering).

Lack of kata (which is deliberate-- the style doesn't have specific counters to specific movements but rather emphasizes that there are specific movements which can counter a range of attacks) means that the style requires a dedicated teacher to show practical application.

The style is often considered too esoteric for the mainstream audience by most Western practitioners. The many hours of physical activity also require many hours of study in the Tao to grasp the energy mechanics. Be aware that if your teacher is saying 'when he does this, do that' without attempting to describe 'chi' then your education is going to be stunted.

'Chi' doesn't allow you to throw fireballs, which clearly works against the 'cool' factor. Many Tai Chi instructors actually discuss the lack of flashiness of the style as its greatest detraction when attracting new students. (Most people are led to believe that 'Chi' is some kind of intangible energy; it isn't)

Like most Southern Wushu styles, Tai Chi has difficulties against jabs (Western boxing style jabs). Footwork will help up to a point but this weakness is fairly glaring.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:23 AM
sixtus sixtus is offline
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These threads all go the same way.

Actual full contact fighters, recommending what works. Aka hard work, emphasis on high level fitness, full contact sparring, welcome exposure to other styles, full contact competitions.

And the semi-contact dojo suburbanites all hoping their black belt granted by 'Master Bob Tiger Kwang' (running a hotdog stand or comic book store by day) and an insular class full of old dudes, kids and soccer moms doing soft techniques, is leading them to be able to take out a 300lb roider in a dark alley.

Sorry guys, there just aren't any shortcuts, and magic isn't real either. Real life means option 1.

The guy you are afraid of, that roider, the 320lb lineman, the excon covered in tattoos with a broken nose, the 260lb mauy thai champion with cauliflower ears, you are afraid of them because your subconsious is being honest with you. You really don't know if Master Bobs 5 Animal style kungfu is going to work like he promised...

I know MMA will. That's a fact. Simply since all of the bad guys above agree MMA will.

Seems like a simple choice for peace of mind to me.
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