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Old 08-25-2012, 07:08 PM
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When I was a kid back in the 70s, I was practicing at a basic Wu Shu Kung fu school. One day a guy came to train. He studied something, but I really don't know what. For like an hour he kept repeating the same move by himself of in a corner. He'd step forward, turn, cross his hands, then be back in his fighting stance.

I asked him if he wanted to spar. He was cool, said yes, then asked if I wanted low, medium or full contact. I didn't know how good his control was so I opted for light...and we'd go harder as we got more used to fighting each other.

It was to this day the strangest fight of my life. Every time we said GO and moved in to fight... All of a sudden out of nowhere the guy had his hand fish hooked around my neck. He'd yank me by the neck with just one hand and throw me over backwards.

This went on for half an hour. No matter how many ways I tried to attack the guy... Time and time again that fish hook from nowhere caught me around the neck and I was yanked off my feet and flying backwards.

I've studied martial arts since 1972. I've never seen this technique before or since... But it was one of the most effective moves I've ever encountered. I literally never saw it coming even though the guy kept using the same technique over and over.

He never came back to train at that school again... So I never even got to find out what style it was from.

Does anyone have a clue what the technique is? It was a standing throw. We never went to the ground. He alway managed to somehow side step me and execute it from behind. It was incredibly effective. If he had put any power into the throw and we weren't on mats... I would have hit the ground hard.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:38 PM
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I am not sure but it sounds like a wing chun throw. Most likely one not derived from Yip man style of schools. This is the reason it was never to be seen again at your school. The saying that there is nothing new under the sun I would look into judo or jujitsu for the origins of the move you are looking for.
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Old 08-25-2012, 08:04 PM
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Sounds like it could be a modified "tiger turns its head". Look into shaolin qin (chin) na. They utilize many similar techniques to what you have described. The best book i have ever found on this art is called "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. It may help you out.
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by psycosteve View Post
I am not sure but it sounds like a wing chun throw. Most likely one not derived from Yip man style of schools. This is the reason it was never to be seen again at your school. The saying that there is nothing new under the sun I would look into judo or jujitsu for the origins of the move you are looking for.
It isn't a judo or jujitsu move.

I'll try to find a video of the tiger turns its head. I've seen most chin na... But it did look like the guy had a Shoalin background. It was definitely a Chinese stance he started in. (oddly, the closest thing I've ever seen to how he moved was the turn they do in Pa Kua.)
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Old 08-26-2012, 11:48 AM
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It wasn't the technique that was special, it was his skill level compared to yours. Any throw from any style of MA will work. Some better and less risky than others. Some causes more pain, some requires more effort, etc. Then there's footwork, confidence, experience with actual fights, etc. There's no MAGIC moves, otherwise everyone will train just this technique and become multi-millionaires by becoming UFC champions using this ONE move.
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:06 PM
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Where where his hips pointed during this throw towards you or away. What shoulder or hip did you go over? Throw you towards your back (away from him) or on your back over his hip? There are many throws that can utilize a drag either arm or modified to neck, shoulder or head lock.

While there is no "magic" throw as ZZ7 stated above, there are techniques that fit a situation. I boxed for a decade before my first Judo class. Believe these guys where magic when it came to close combat. I had no understanding of grip fighting and the speed of there transition from entry into execution of throw was humbling to say the least.

I would look at an illustration of the 67 (or 65) throws of Kodokan judo and see if there is one that looks close. There is also a youtube video of the 67 throws in 3 minutes or something like that that has the name of each. You may find it or something like it there.
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by A-Team View Post
It isn't a judo or jujitsu move.
They have a lot of throws.

Without having a video of it I'd say it is a basic throw. I really don't understand you text, it sounds like he just touches your neck and you fall backwards which I don't think you want to say. I suspect it is a "hip throw" (don't know the English word for it) which is common among MA's and among the first you learn. It is like the "judo throw" where you grab an arm and throw him over your back with the difference that you grab the neck and use the hip instead. The throw is a bit "shorter" then the classic judo throw where the opponent stay closer to the thrower. Does any of this text make any sense?

Did you by any chance end up lying with your head between his legs?

If it is the throw I think it is you can make it real nasty by bending the knees when you throw and the opponent will go down head first instead of landing on his back.
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ZZ7 View Post
It wasn't the technique that was special, it was his skill level compared to yours. Any throw from any style of MA will work. Some better and less risky than others. Some causes more pain, some requires more effort, etc. Then there's footwork, confidence, experience with actual fights, etc. There's no MAGIC moves, otherwise everyone will train just this technique and become multi-millionaires by becoming UFC champions using this ONE move.
Respectfully, I disagree. This guy wasn't that good. I sparred many people who were much better... And I have fought many many people since who held world titles... And I never had this experience before or since. I don't think there was anything magic about his technique. It was just extremely effective... And no matter how often he executed it I couldn't defend against it. I literally never saw it coming. The only time I knew it was there was when he had me by the neck and I was flying backwards. I could never figure out too how he was always able to blindside me. Typically after someone does something a couple times...you figure out the telegraph that lets you know it is coming.

He was totally a one trick pony. He couldn't punch, kick, use elbows or do any other techniques. He just kept practicing this one move... And then using it over and over.

What has been odd to me is that over the last 40+ years I have fought the entire gamut of martial arts styles many many times... And I have never seen this weird fish hook throw show up again. (I looked at all the wing chun throws and chin na... Nada that even looked similar.)

I'm not trying to find a magic technique. It's just 30+ years later and I am still trying to figure out what this move is...and why I haven't seen it since. I've kicked myself for 30 years for not asking him to teach it to me that day but I just assumed I'd see him again. Never assume.
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:47 PM
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Could you paint a comic of how it went down?

I think I know what it is and it is a basic throw. You have probably meet it again but had the experience to not fall for it. The throw I'm talking about is very effective if you get close and inside or beside the guard but not something you can do on a seasoned fighter who has trained it.

How did you stand before the throw and where did you end up once it was over? How did you lay in respect to the thrower when on the ground?
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by USJudo View Post
Where where his hips pointed during this throw towards you or away. What shoulder or hip did you go over? Throw you towards your back (away from him) or on your back over his hip? There are many throws that can utilize a drag either arm or modified to neck, shoulder or head lock.

While there is no "magic" throw as ZZ7 stated above, there are techniques that fit a situation. I boxed for a decade before my first Judo class. Believe these guys where magic when it came to close combat. I had no understanding of grip fighting and the speed of there transition from entry into execution of throw was humbling to say the least.

I would look at an illustration of the 67 (or 65) throws of Kodokan judo and see if there is one that looks close. There is also a youtube video of the 67 throws in 3 minutes or something like that that has the name of each. You may find it or something like it there.
USJudo and Camel, I should probably retract the "it isn't judo or jujitsu" statement. I know for a fact the guy studied previously with Berl Walkinshaw... And Berl was a student of 1950s and 1960s judo/jujitsu legend Frank Goody. (Today Goody's legacy is a bit smeared... But back in the 70s he was spoken of very respectfully. Berl Walkinshaw ran a Wu Shu Kung fu school in Orlando, Florida... But he was 3-4 degree black belt in judo/jujitsu.

I never studied with Mr. Walkinshaw, but I saw his son, Kimball, spar my coach. Kimball had a very odd fighting style, effective... But odd. It is possible with so many different jujitsu styles that this came from that. What Queda's me was when you asked about how he positioned his hps etc... While he practiced this by himself... It was very obvious it was a full body move. He was practicing how his footwork changed... How his body turned... How his hips turned with his body. I wish I could find anything similar on tape. I've studied judo and Japanese styles of jujitsu and never seen anything similar show up... But that could simply be because it was style specific and I have just never seen that jujitsu style again.
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:17 PM
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Respectfully, I disagree. This guy wasn't that good. I sparred many people who were much better... And I have fought many many people since who held world titles... And I never had this experience before or since. I don't think there was anything magic about his technique. It was just extremely effective... And no matter how often he executed it I couldn't defend against it.

He was totally a one trick pony. He couldn't punch, kick, use elbows or do any other techniques. He just kept practicing this one move... And then using it over and over.

Thanks for the detailed explanation on your experience levels, etc.... now I'm really interested in knowing what this is.

So he fished hooked you with his palm, sideways against your trachea and then flung you backwards? Thus, he cut an angle to get to your side the moment you tried to punch him. Did he use his hips like a hip throw or did he place his other hand on your lower back....and pushed it in the opposite direction of the hand on the throat...simultaneously....scissor like motion?
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:20 PM
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Could you paint a comic of how it went down?

I think I know what it is and it is a basic throw. You have probably meet it again but had the experience to not fall for it. The throw I'm talking about is very effective if you get close and inside or beside the guard but not something you can do on a seasoned fighter who has trained it.

How did you stand before the throw and where did you end up once it was over? How did you lay in respect to the thrower when on the ground?
Actually... Yes I can. I can't draw how he got to it... But I can draw how we were positioned when he executed it. It's going to look like crap but I will try to draw it.

It's interesting but I didn't realize till USjudo mentioned it...it was really in his hips. Once he was behind me and had his hand around my neck...it was effortless how he lifted me off my feet. That would have to come from his turning his hips... Not from trying to muscle through it... So that he used his whole body in the throw.

In judo... My main teacher would always say "Everybody gets to see your throws except you" because we followed through the movement turning our head/eyes in the follow through. In analyzing this (which is hard to do 30 years later) I could swear that is exactly what he did... He followed through the movement turning his head/eyes as he turned his body and hips.

I will see if I can make a crappy drawing and photo it with my cell phone.
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:35 PM
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Thanks for the detailed explanation on your experience levels, etc.... now I'm really interested in knowing what this is.

So he fished hooked you with his palm, sideways against your trachea and then flung you backwards? Thus, he cut an angle to get to your side the moment you tried to punch him. Did he use his hips like a hip throw or did he place his other hand on your lower back....and pushed it in the opposite direction of the hand on the throat...simultaneously....scissor like motion?
That's almost an exact description except no hand on the lower back. The fact his hand hooked my trachea freaked my out because it was jarring/shocking every time he did it. He was positioned so that he was facing away from me... But he had his front right foot planted past my front foot/leg when he would turn his body and execute the throw. And YES I think he always got it in just after I threw a punch. (I can't remember 100% for sure... But I remember being frustrated that he always waited for me to attack... And then BLAMO I was on my back... Half the time gulping for air because that hand on the windpipe would have been brutal if he had used real force.)

Any guesses as to the technique? The more you guys analyze it... The more I think I was wrong and it was from jujitsu. But I have never seen any judo or jujitsu neck throws.

The one thing I am aware of... There are a lot of techniques I don't see kids taught today like they did in the 70s... Eye gouges... Neck cranks... Etc... Simply because schools don't want to risk liability. This was definitely what I would describe as an unsafe technique to practice... But I would expect even unsafe techniques to still survive in styles at the higher ranks.

(and let me qualify my response... No hand on the lower back that I noticed. Maybe it was there. I was always a bit in shock when he landed this that I might have missed it. But I think his opposite hand was extended out to leverage his body turn...but I may be wrong. He was behind me and I couldn't really see.)
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Old 08-26-2012, 02:33 PM
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Any guesses as to the technique? The more you guys analyze it... The more I think I was wrong and it was from jujitsu. But I have never seen any judo or jujitsu neck throws.
I was never good at learning Asian terminology for different techniques. I'm pretty sure many styles have similar moves. I've seen Aikidokas do such, and Aikido is pretty much Jiu-Jitsu-lite.

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The one thing I am aware of... There are a lot of techniques I don't see kids taught today like they did in the 70s... Eye gouges... Neck cranks... Etc... Simply because schools don't want to risk liability. This was definitely what I would describe as an unsafe technique to practice... But I would expect even unsafe techniques to still survive in styles at the higher ranks.
We do train such, just not all out power during sparring. Like a simple guillotine choke attacks the trachea and can cause collapse and death. Just like an ankle lock can go from just locked in to no more training nor walking for 6 months or more in less than a second if cranked all out. Eye gouges are pretty self explanatory and not really needed to train for, like the nutsack strike. Any training now or in the 70's, it's pretty much a pretend strike.

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(and let me qualify my response... No hand on the lower back that I noticed. Maybe it was there. I was always a bit in shock when he landed this that I might have missed it. But I think his opposite hand was extended out to leverage his body turn...but I may be wrong. He was behind me and I couldn't really see.)
Yea, I like getting caught by unusual techniques like these. It keeps you sharp and constantly learning. I like figuring out how to defend or counter against them. He seemed to be a counter-fighter. My technique against counter-fighters is to feint jabs, transitioning into a long range, lead hook (like Oscar De La Hoya's "bear claw"). Or just spam double jabs and footwork.

But you guys agreed on LIGHT sparring, yet he went hard to near all out in order to throw you like that. Plus he's going for your throat. Maybe your going light, which usually translates into slower punches...even if you had great control to pull them right before impact....and still throw them crisp and fast, they would still be slower than normal....which allowed him to slip past your punches like that.

Personally, if he kept attacking my throat at full power like that, I would tell him to stop or I would just start throwing full power.
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:39 PM
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From your answers to the questions of the others it sounds like a basic neck throw, or an outer rear sweeping throw. (both from ju jitsu). Like someone previously mentioned it depends on where you landed in relation to where you faced, and where he was positioned during and after.

Was it like this? http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...weeping-throw/?
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:55 PM
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I should mention you could do an inner version of that throw where he would almost punch your throat with his left while sweeping with his left hip while rotating past your head... Very hard to do without getting hit and hard to follow with a lock in my opinion.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:24 PM
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From your answers to the questions of the others it sounds like a basic neck throw, or an outer rear sweeping throw. (both from ju jitsu). Like someone previously mentioned it depends on where you landed in relation to where you faced, and where he was positioned during and after.

Was it like this? http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/tr...weeping-throw/?
Position 4 looks partially like the catch moment. But it definitely isn't the same move. I've studied judo and jujitsu off an on. I would state adamantly that it wasn't any of the basic judo/jujitsu throws, but 3-4 years ago I saw one guy execute this out of nowhere choke where he was standing facing his opponent. I'd never seen it in my life... And when I asked him where he learned it he said it was basic judo. So there are definitely some amazing techniques that are limited to particular systems.

I've gone through videos for years. I've never found one that shows this move... At least not in Japanese jujitsu styles... But I'm not going to rule it out.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:05 PM
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I should of thought of this earlier but I ended up cross training a couple of months ago for a class demonstration for a T'ai Chi Chuan class payment for a couple of favors . All I can say is that I am glad I had padded gear and a padded mat or other wise I would of really been hurt. Did you feel one hand on your neck and the same forearm on your chest and his leg right behind your legs . If I remember correctly the move is something wave or crashing wave. T'ai Chi does have some weird moves to it that can be very effective in the higher levels or the art you might want to look there as well.


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Old 08-27-2012, 10:58 PM
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I should of thought of this earlier but I ended up cross training a couple of months ago for a class demonstration for a T'ai Chi Chuan class payment for a couple of favors . All I can say is that I am glad I had padded gear and a padded mat or other wise I would of really been hurt. Did you feel one hand on your neck and the same forearm on your chest and his leg right behind your legs . If I remember correctly the move is something wave or crashing wave. T'ai Chi does have some weird moves to it that can be very effective in the higher levels or the art you might want to look there as well.
I think you may have called it correctly.. Or at least the guys at my club think this is the right direction. I never studied Tai Chi (more than a couple classes...like maybe 5-6 over the years total) but I do remember that this guy kept practicing the same move over and over and over...the way tai chi people used to do the same thing over and over. Then when we sparred he kept applying it over and over and over...to my detriment. Watching him practice it was very much like watching somebody do Tai Chi. I'm not 100% sure what Berl Walkinshaw taught... But basic Wu Shu and jujitsu were definitely part of his curriculum... And looking at a couple of his students online... At least one of them teaches tai chi too.

Our club is mostly pro... With a pretty even split between guys who want to work their way up in boxing and guys who train mma... But one guy is an old fashioned Kung fu nut. He primarily trains the three main internal styles: hsiing yi (spelling?) pa Kua chaun, and tai chi. He is the only guy I know who fights tai chi in competitions. (I didn't even see anyone fight tai chi till 1990 or so. Prior to that I thought it was only kata. I didn't realize they did full contact fights at first.)

I was yacking this thread after bjmac posted the photo link... And everybody who was judoka or jujitsu... Even the strict bjj guys... Could replicate the throw. But what the tai chi guy said was what really caught me. He said:

"It wasn't the throw. It was that you kept missing the feint and block when he set up the throw."

Then he showed me 3-4 different feints from hsingi (can't spell it to save my life.). I'd taken private lessons in pa Kua back in the 80s... So I recognized it when he did the basic hand shift... But then he showed me a couple more hand feints that were so fast and confusing I told him we had to try sparring. He didn't know how to do the neck throw... But the judo guys got him to learn it reasonably well and we tried sparring. He couldn't get it couldn't get it... But then he asked "Is this how you fought as a kid?". Hell no. Back then I was a total head kicker. So he had me try to replicate how I used to fight. I showed him how I would throw a right cross as a set up for a roundhouse and as I was showing him he stepped right into it and had his right arm shot over mine and past my neck. If he was adept at the throw... I think he would have gotten it.

That was when the lightbulb went on. Full contact sparring was the "in" thing back in the 70s... Primarily because it was new. Some schools had started back as far as the late 60s... But because Kung fu was the rage rather than boxing or bjj.. Most of us were still pretty amateurish when it came to contact sparring. We could never get away today with the lousy crap we used to do back then... And the one thing I don't ever remember being taught in the 70s was any kind of feint or deception. It wasn't till I started boxing that slipping, jabs, feints even became part of my thinking... But tai chi... Wing chun... Hsing I... A lot of the systems taught feints and blocks as part of their basics. It wasn't something I got back then... And that is probably why I walked into it over and over... Then after suckering me in... A basic jujitsu throw was all he needed to finish the deal.

I may be wrong but I think the answer may actually be that this seemed like the magic technique from hell simply because I wasn't experienced with feints and deflection... Because I think in hindsight bjmac called it right. Figure 4 of that photo line up does look like the position where he planted the hook.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:45 AM
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Glad I was of help... I remember the first time I was in a guillotine choke. I remembered throwing a punch and my head feeling like it was going pop off. Nothing in between! It's amazing how basic moves can seem like magic when it's first used on you or a beginner.
This is the reason I promote learning a bunch of different styles.
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